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In nearly 13 years, the French appear to have come to little understanding of why these events unfolded.
Rather, they publicly have no grasp.
So, are we to assume, that actors within the French State do have good knowledge of what transpired?
If these actors are cognisant but failing to share those informations with their public, why would that be?
Do not expect any common sense out of the French State for the rest of Macron’s term.
France is going to hell in a hand cart.
France borrows a lot more money than their GDP.
Prime minister of France has just signed his own end of career note, he will be leaving stage left – soon.
Financial collapse is hurtling towards them.
Almost certainly political chaos, is coming, this Autumn.
@michael norton
Further to the question:- Why did it happen here? (i.e. at le Martinet)
Another answer could be that that was where SM would be exhausted and vulnerable.
It was the ‘furthest point’ of his overall route and crucially the top of the only major climb in his journey. SM had a good grimp to get there.
The location has other advantages but this may have factored into the killer’s thinking.
Good In Parts,
well thought through.
I had not twigged that aspect.
Indeed, even an extraordinarily fit Sylvain, would be tired at the top of that climb, at the speed he took it.
He might have even taken a little rest, before shooting back down the combe.
So, if you prime target was S.M. this would be, when he would be the most vulnerable.
Of course, we actually know very little.
It has been said that the only local person, Sylvain, took the first bullet.
It has also been said he took more bullets than anyone else.
They cremated him real fast, too.
If he was the only intended target, using a nearly 100 year old Luger, might have suggested a blood feud.
However, why involve another family?
But why were the al Hillis at that spot?
A shady, covered in vegetation, not at the top of an elevated spot with a view.
If you were with a family with kids and a grandparent what would be their response to “Hey, lets go to a secluded, lay-by 1/2 way up a mountain and sit in the car this afternoon! What fun.
Can we see the alps skyline? No
Can we see the Lake? No
Is there anything for the kids to do? No
Can we go hiking? Not with young kids and an elderly Mother.
Why are we here Dad?
Rendez-vous is favourite imo.
Let us “run” this story as if it had been more simple.
Same date – September 28, 2012.
Same remote venue, Le Martinet, parking spot, up the combe.
Only one victim.
Savoyard,
French cyclist Sylvain Mollier, 45.
Killed by multiple shots, with an almost one hundred year old Swiss made Luger.
Do we think that The French Authorities might have cleared up this single killing?
Perhaps if years earlier, the French had not been so blinded by wanting the problem to emanate from England, if they had focused on their local man, the more or less local weapon, the local history of this part of Europe, they could have honed in on the most likely, probably, local killer?
@michael norton
Yes, a single, Savoyard, victim would have made things a lot cleaner.
Having said that, removing the SAH party from the equation would still leave the cryptic LMC (who probably would still not have come forward) plus the whole ONF crew mess. So the investigation would still have to unpick the X5 and the bogus GPA helmet and the reversed timings etc.
If they hadn’t closed the case within a year, I think it would have become a moribund cold case. Particularly if a wall of silence had been built.
Hello Boys!
How have you all been after all these years? We have to acknowledge that the investigators are working hard to try to find the solution. From my point of view, this revelation is just as interesting and important as the matters concerning Patrice Menegaldo or the motorcyclist.
Coincidences do exist, but this one really goes a long way.
“Finally, another troubling fact: the French gendarmes established that a Danish tourist was staying less than 10 km from the motorway rest area where that Belgian father was killed in July 2011, and that this same tourist had rented a spot at the campsite near Annecy, where the Al-Hilli family had set up their caravan in September 2012. He left on the very day of the massacre.”
@Bacchus
Good to see you dropping in again!
You might want to read-in this thread to see where we are now. A lot more detail has been revealed, but not much has really been resolved..
Here is a very recent (and slightly strange) article from Le Dauphine Libere
“Is the red Luger P06-29 debris found at the crime scene a magazine base or a stock plate? A central question to guide the investigation.” (‘stock plate’ better translates as ‘grip plate’)
https://www.ledauphine.com/faits-divers-justice/2025/09/04/c-est-une-arme-tres-fiable-mais-qui-peut-s-enrayer-facilement-13-ans-apres-la-tuerie-de-chevaline-autopsie-de-l-arme-au-coeur-de-l-enigme
Also see :-
https://www.ledauphine.com/videos/13-ans-apres-la-tuerie-de-chevaline-l-arme-du-crime-au-coeur-de-l-affaire-30kxsz3
Sylvain Mollier was quite well known by many in his community.
He was super fit.
He was a cyclist.
He comes from a larger Savoyard family, some of whom were involved in the French world of Spies.
He has a sister who was a long term girlfriend of Patrice Menegaldo.
He had a moderately complicated family life, that upset some people, including one of his work collegues.
Sylvain worked in the Nuclear Industry.
He had most likely been in an elite military group.
His family were steeped in the secrecy of Savoyard resistance to the Nazi Hoardes, that overan this part of France.
He was living with a lady, her uncle was an important politician, who had a complicated life.
This uncle was a part owner in the chemist shop.
The chemist shop from which she drew her living and status in their community.
This uncle was licensed to carry a shooter.
I think there was a connection / business between this uncle and Sylvain Mollier.
At a minimum, I suggest this uncle was in agreement of Sylvain Mollier living with and protecting his relative. Also the chemist business he had a stake in.
This uncle was the brother of Claire’s mother.
It would seem the father of Claire did not like or approve of Sylvain but the man with the clout and the money was the maternal uncle.
I suggest, in some way Sylvain was doing the bidding of the uncle of Claire, against the wishes of the father of Claire.
Their child would be the great nephew of the politician.
Where the old chemist shop was at 67 Rue Joseph Martin, Grignon, Albertville, Savoie,
with the Sapeurs-Pompiers Grand Arc, in the yard at the rear, is a new steel gate system.
Very secure looking, I wonder what they are worried about?
Pharmacie Schutz Morange
Where the old chemist shop was at 67 Rue Joseph Martin, Grignon, Albertville, Savoie,
with the Sapeurs-Pompiers Grand Arc, in the yard at the rear, is a new steel gate system.
Very secure looking, I wonder what they are worried about?
This information seems to suggest that the Grignon chemist shop, shut up shop for the last time in May 2025 ?
https://annuaire-entreprises.data.gouv.fr/etablissement/53324003200029
Date de création de la société
28/06/2011
Date de création de l’établissement
31/10/2013
Date de fermeture
20/05/2025
The uncle is Pierre Morange
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Morange
He was at one time co-owner of the chemist shop
address was number 73
Quote from a previous post:-
“Is the red Luger P06-29 debris found at the crime scene a magazine base or a stock plate? A central question to guide the investigation.”
Is this just poor reporting or, after thirteen years, is there really still doubt about the origin of the fragments found?
If the morceau recovered were from the small section of grip found on some magazine bases then that could decouple the dating information source from the actual weapon. After all one could insert an old magazine into a newer gun.
Original quote:-
“Le débris rouge de Luger P06-29 retrouvé sur la scène de crime est-il celui d’une base de chargeur ou d’une plaquette de la crosse ? Une question centrale pour orienter les investigations.”
Thinking about it, it would make more sense to use a newer magazine in an old gun given that the magazine springs do not age well.
So could the gun actually be a P06? It strikes me as unlikely, mais…
Or was the gun a bitzer?
Good In Parts, I very likely understand much less about the gun and the “stories” that we have been spun, than you do.
I can understand that DNA should be recoverable from any fragment left at of near the scene.
Eske Willerslev put in place his working theory of environmental DNA a few years ago.
This science is now available but it was not available at the time of The Alps Massacre.
If the killer had urinated and that could have been detected, at that time, an expert in environmental DNA should have been able to get a “message” which might have secured the identity of the perp.
But that perp. would have had to of been on a database, that was retrievable by the French Authorities, or a suspect that was arrested and DNA taken from.
@michael norton
Well, I don’t think that the gendarmes have done environmental dna analysis on the crime scene per se however they did analyse all the cigarette butts (and packaging) found at the crime scene. They did actually get some hits on their database, including a soldier. This guy turned out to have been at le Martinet because apparently there was a military exercise up in the mountains and the carpark was the assembly point from which it started. This exercise took place roughly a couple of weeks before the murders.
This means that a significant number of military types were familiar with le Martinet. Which raises the question, why are they so focussed on Swiss special forces? Perhaps they should dna check all the participants in the exercise and assess their combat handgunnery skills.
This was probably all outside of their abilities.
However, they have had shells and shell casings.
They have had fragments of grip.
At the time in 2012, the French most probably would have been able to recover DNA from those bits of evidence.
They could disprove L.M.C. They could disprove W.B.M. they could and probably did disprove a lot of suspects.
It is possible that there was DNA on the cycle of Sylvain, on the car of al-Hilli.
On fragments of clothing, say of the girl he held and bashed.
I would say the police have done a very poor job.
So, have the French Authorities yet claimed they have good DNA recovered from the gun fragments, the bullets or the bullet cases?
More about an upcoming dramatization called “The Annecy Murders”, a six-part psychological thriller inspired by the infamous Chevaline killings.
https://www.televisual.com/news/carrousel-sunnymarch-landscape-team-for-annecy-murders/
Good In Parts, that sounds exciting but it will not start production for another twelve months.
Are there any public informations available that hasve come out from the “reinactment” near Paris?
@michael norton
I think I posted a summary and links to the outcome of the reconstruction back in the last few pages but here is the skinny:-
They tried shooters with different levels of ability and the results implied that the actual shooter was highly experienced (what a surprise but useful to have this confirmed).
They now estimate that the shooting took 60 to 90 seconds to complete (which is more than my original estimate of 40 seconds). I now use 90 seconds in my timelines.
They now think that a particular shooting technique was used and link this to Swiss Special Forces (or maybe some specialist french units). My view is that the ‘tir fichant’ technique was not necessarily used and that other forms of practice such as ‘tactical stage competitions’ could mimic the perceived similarity.
Good In Parts, do you know why they have been so spectacularly useless?
Even thirteen years ago, it should have been easy to get DNA from the gun casing fragments, from the bullet shells, from the bullet casings.
From the outside of the al-Hilli vehicle.
From the inside of the al-Hilli vehicle.
From the cycle of Sylvain.
From the beaten al-Hilli child.
From the al-Hilli caravan and tent.
From al-Hilli mobile phones.
Useless French Authorities.
There was DNA taken because it was announced within about 2 weeks, from an un-accounted for, person. Later they explained that it was matched to a policeman who had been at the scene and they had forgotten to take his sample to exclude him. This sounded very suspicious to me. If somebody wanted to protect someone, it would be a plan to provide a new sample, declare that sample as belonging to a police in order to explain it away. There is a pattern of theories and perps being investigated followed by an all clear explanation. This happened when a new investigator re-opened a theory about a suspect that had been more or less cleared but lo, he was cleared again, false alarm, silly new investigator (This suspect was one of the local gun-toting loners, do you remember who?) The motorcyclist was explained away as an innocent paraglider. The farmer’s wife who was later contradicted by the husband so we believe him instead. It is consistent, though not proven, with the investigators digging something up and some external authority, somehow intimately knowledgeable with the case, countering with a “nothing to see here” explanation and re-establishing the convenient mystery. I see the identification of the luger as potentially another example with those fragments coming to light well after the incident, after the scene had not been secure.
@michael norton & intp1
I fully get where both of you are coming from and, whatever perspective you look at it from, this whole affair just feels wrong, very very wrong.
The gendarmes themselves apparently refer to this investigation as ‘le cahier de coincidence‘.
Try searching google for that phrase, the AI Summary comes back with Jung’s theory of synchronicity! This must be some ‘dark’ version of synchronicity where every piste initially looks great, but the leads just take you down some unprovable dead end rabbit-hole.
In France, within the police force, they have a thing called a “horse cock”.
This is a huge, heavy “rubber” horse cock, they use it to beat confessions out of the villans.
Perhaps they should have used a horse cock to get information from the Lyon motorcyclist?
The Lyon motorcyclist, has been exonerated, twice, but he has never been given a name?
Nor has his history been stated
So, almost the only person in these events, who has not been named, is L.M.C.
That one bit of missing information,
is actually information.
@michael norton
Well, not quite the only person in these events who have not been named…
Nor have the three ONF personnel i.e. ONF1 and ONF2.
Nor has the underage TBR been officially been named (though we all know who is).
Nor the mountain hiking guide and his two female compagnions.
Nor have the walkers and VTT riders who WBM observed as he rode back down the combe.
The investigators are observing ‘le secret de l’instruction’, as is their prerogative.
Good In Parts, I still feel that
L.M.C. is a “special” person.
A protected person.
@michael norton
Special? Well, he certainly has not been publicly named, and I think that it might have been the Eric Devouaseau arrest and ‘accidental’ naming debacle that made the gendarmes more careful. Plus not forgetting that chap Menegaldo that killed himself and left a suicide note partially blaming the gendarmes.
However the gendarmes did arrest LMC and keep him in jail overnight so I don’t think he was ‘protected’ in any useful way. His lawyer was apoplectic with outrage.
Remember that the gendarmes ‘forgot’ to bring a search warrant when they originally came knocking at his door. Apparently they were unhappy to find that he had taken legal advice. They left empty handed.
Perhaps ‘lawyering up’ is regarded as suspicious in france.
Perhaps if Menegaldo had ‘lawyered up’ he would have avoided the ‘strip and slip’. Perhaps he would still be alive today.
L.M.C.
“Special”
perhaps this “person” is/was in some government group.
This person was apparently above suspicion
In the U.K., even Prince Andrew a veteran of The Falklands Conflict, the second son of the Queen, is/was not above suspicion.
What can it mean for a “person” to be above suspicion?
@michael norton
You wrote:-
“L.M.C. “Special” … What can it mean for a “person” to be above suspicion?”
It’s a difficult thing to articulate but it might be ‘class’ or ‘social status’. You may recall that WBM was almost lauded by the gendarmes as ‘un ancien’ of the RAF and ex-airline pilot. As for LMC he was referred to as ‘un chef de enterprise’ (so the kind of person who probably already has a lawyer and knows when to call them). Neither of them would have a criminal record.
Contrast that with Menegaldo. Poor chap just happened to have an illegally held pistol plus a record of physical assaults and affray.
Who do you think they broke out the horse cock for?
Good In Parts, good point with regard to Mr. Menegaldo.
In France, after the Napoleans
they went off kings, Dictators or Emperor types.
In the United Kingdom, we still have a King and a Royal Family.
Yet, if they start acting up, like toe-sucking or getting access to a Prince for a Middle Eastern person, or mingling with a bad sort, they can find themselves in Hot Water.
I understand, even in the Republic of France ex-Prime ministers can be named and held to account.
I am sorry but the only reason that makes sense for keeping the L.M.C. Mirage hidden, is French State Instructions.
What ever it was that “went down” up that combe, it has been incredibly important, in the mind of the Deep State of France, for nothing to come out.
One of the most important parts of the French State, is the Nuclear Indudtry, nothing can challenge that.
If the Nuclear Industry falls, so does the French Republic
Former French president Sarkozy given five-year jail sentence after Libya case.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp98kepmj9lo
So, it does seem that L.M.C.
is a very special case.
@michael norton
You say:-
“What ever it was that “went down” up that combe, it has been incredibly important, in the mind of the Deep State of France, for nothing to come out.”
I say:-
“What ever it was that “went wrong” in the investigation, it has been incredibly important, in the mind of the Deep State of France, for nothing to come out.”
I strongly suspect that we shall never get to see the internal review reports on the conduct of the investigation. I am pretty sure that there has been at least two so far, and probably more.
Even now, you can come across new little tit-bits about the reality of the investigation. Here is one that as new to me anyway:-
“Afterwards, certain errors were made. For example, the fact that the belongings—and in particular the helmet—of the first witness to the crime scene, a New Zealander who was riding a bike, were not seized.”
Now, I was aware that the gendarmes neglected to seize the clothes that WBM had been wearing but I didn’t know that included his helmet.
From this link:-
https://www.20minutes.fr/faits_divers/4061512-20231115-affaire-chevaline-pense-nom-tueur-dossier-instruction
@michael norton
I have been thinking carefully about LMC, in particular about why the gendarmes seem to dislike him so strongly. It is my opinion that his arrest and particularly his overnight incarceration was a kind of punishment for him not being a fulsomely cooperative witness.
His testimony was generally a bit flaky but the main problematic element was his apparent claim that he did not see the BMW of SAH or any of the victims.
Now that the gendarmes have recently ‘decided’ that LMC crossed WBM at 1.3 Km down from le Martinet Parking, his claim is decidedly doubtful. After all if the gendarmes ‘decided’ correctly that he saw WBM then he must perforce have also crossed paths with SAH and SM.
I am not worried about these particular sightings but I am concerned about what he may have seen or heard in the approx 30 minutes between being ‘sent down’ by ONF2 and crossing WBM.
William Brett Martin, reported that as he cycled up the combe, he saw L.M.C. looking at W.B.M.
yet L.M.C. does not know or recognise W.B.M.
Perhaps “L.M.C”, is more than one person.
Meaning that the person who was actually up the combe, was not this person, who claimed to be L.M.C.
during the recent interview
Good In Parts, you may be on to something with L.M.C.
I think he claimed he never saw nothing!
Honest.
If it was true that W.B.M. had another one and a third Kilometres to ride up the combe to get to the scene, then are we to assume Sylvain, had not yet cycled up, passing W.B.M.
How long do the police claim, it took for W.B.M. to cycle up to Le Martinet, after he passed L.M.C.
1.3 K lower than W.B.M. had claimed
I suspect that somebody is trying to “adapt” timelines to exclude L.M.C.?
The real L.M.C. mighty have been part of “The Team”
@michael norton
The gendarmes interrogated LMC as a suspect and he now is presumably not well disposed to them. The cold case unit needs to grovel a bit (or rather a lot) and re-interview him as a witness focussing on the period from his meeting with ONF2 at the second hairpin until he crossed paths with WBM.
Anything or anyone that LMC saw or heard during that time could be a vital clue.
@michael norton
I suggest that the gendarmes should also re-interview the TBR as he too could have seen or heard something that would help this case.
Quote Good In Parts
June 13, 2025 at 18:34
ToE at LMP ver 4
15:37:30 – shooting finishes
15:38:00 – the killer starts to leave
15:38:45 – WBM notices Zainab staggering in the middle of the road and hears her cry out as she falls flat on her face
If W.B.M. gets to the killing scene 45 seconds after the killer has just departed, 90 seconds, after the last bullet has been fired, there might be inconsistency with W.B.M. passing L.M.C. one and a third kilometres lower down the combe.
If W.B.M. was ascending at ten K /Hour
That would take him more than seven minutes to attain the killing scene?
The French need to write down their timeline
@michael norton
I shall re-check my timeline when I get a chance but at first glance I think that you may be overestimating the speed of ascent of WBM. My estimate was 135 m/min. Your figure of ten K/Hour equates to 166 m/min.
Very roughly, I think that WBM crossed LMC around 10 minutes before he arrived at le Martinet.
When I put ‘ToE at LMP ver 4’ together it was on the basis that I had come to the conclusion that SM had ridden up the combe, particularly the lower reaches, at a significantly brisker pace than WBM. The overall outcome was less tight on timings and thus less sensitive to smallish changes.
So, let’s say Sylvain was cycling up hill, one and a half times as fast as W.B.M.
Say, 200 m/min, that would take him six and a half minutes to ascend to Le Martinet, if L.M.C. & W.B.M. and Sylvain, all passed each other at the same time ,1300 metres lower down the combe, than we had previously imagined.
So, a few possibilities, Sylvain got to the killing zone, at least three and a half minutes, before W.B.M.
If the killing happened as Sylvain got to the scene and the scene took ninety seconds, this option gives some clearance for W.B.M. not to have heard the shootings?
Anothr option, the killing did not happen, instantly, there was a minute or so before the shooting started, that could indicate that the shootist was involved in the “exchange” then it went BAD.
Or the shootist was not quite in place.
but this is still quite problematic for L.M.C.
No doubt the French have configured multiple timelines?
G.I.P.
I do not know.
Where there several indicators, which all honed in to give the precise time of shooting.
@michael norton
You wrote:-
“if L.M.C. & W.B.M. and Sylvain, all passed each other at the same time ,1300 metres lower down the combe, than we had previously imagined.”
Only WBM actually crossed LMC at 1300 m from le Martinet.
WBM ‘fell in behind’ Sylvain Mollier at the ‘Y’ junction by the disused sawmill at the bottom of the combe.
Sylvain Mollier was riding faster than WBM, who tried to keep up, however SM pulled away and was out of sight of WBM within a few hundred meters.
This allows a significant gap to develop between SM and WBM. We have not been informed of the latest gendarmerie estimate of the arrival times of either cyclist. My most recent estimates are as follows:-
15:36:00 – SM arrives
15:39:00 – WBM arrives
Your mileage may vary!
The gendarmes should know the arrival times by now. For a start they have the BMW and have doubtless analysed the engine management system to retrieve the last start and stop times of the engine. That should have been a big help.
It is a mystery.
In Manchester, a man drove a car into a place of worship and knifed people, withing minutes the Manchester police shot him dead.
Two things stick out.
1) Manchester police were ready for this sort of thing.
2) Manchester is not the middle of nowhere.
So, moving back to le Martinet, we know it is the middle of nowhere.
The police seemed to be unable to cope.
Yet they have a massive police force in France, they probably have more shootings/stabbings in France than we have in England.
They show to the public that they do not have a clue.
It is almost as if they have been instructed to not find out what happened and to seem to be bumbling rural slow witted policemen?
I imagine the French police are no more slow witted than the English police, they both get things wrong and they sometimes get things right. But thirteen years, to still not have a clue, that is not believeable.
France is entering a phase of dangerous political collapse.
Yet another political appointee Prime minster, anointed by Macron has fallen on his sword, this latest one, in less time than Liz Truss.
Sébastien Lecornu, resigned after just 26 days in the role
What will Macron do next, he has begged Seb to hang on for a day or two, to see if he can talk anybody into being in a government, led by Seb.
It is without hope.
next step will be Le Pen
to grasp the helm?
As France is heading into very uncertain waters, with a lame duck President, there is not likely to be any turn-ups in the murder of Sylvain.
Mystery on hold.