A group believe that a God created the whole universe, then decided for some reason having the ability to make anything and anyone he wanted that he would father a child, just once, at a pretty random time some millions of years after he did all that creating, and from the whole universe chose a girl in Palestine, who God decided to make pregnant without impairing her virginity, resultant child being God too and later being killed before coming back to life again. Well, one of the heads of this group has announced that Darwinism is not incompatible with this belief.
This is a kind of improvement. That is in itself kind of strange because plainly they are actually incompatible, one being scientific fact, the other obvious tosh.
Oops. Sorry ’bout the double up. Had some computer troubles.
@ Matt.
Actually Muslims pay tremendous respect to Jesus. Muslims and Christians differ essentially in who Jesus was. Islamic teaching shows him as a prophet, not a deity. Muslims, like Christians, believe Jesus will return to us. Jesus, when he eventually dies after his return, will be buried next to Muhammad(saw) in Mecca.
Jesus like all prophets before him, preached the same monotheism as those before him, E.g. King David and Solomon, Moses, Abraham, Jacob(alternatively called Israel) and Mohammaed. I think Muslims call Jesus’s revelations the Injiil, but we have no record or it, or no guarantee of its freedom from corruption – unlike the Qur’an which is protected.
You may like to watch this:
The Muslim Jesus (Melvin Brag hosting it I think) video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5664653194971017112 45m in total
and
An Islamic view of the return of Jesus (pbuh) at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0XSD7E_QA ab (3 parts = approx 60 total)
Muslims believe in the Virgin birth. There is no ‘Joseph’ figure in the story of Mary, who was a pious girl brought up by Rabbi’s in the temple. Muslims also believe Jesus wasn’t crucified was raised into the heavens and only made to appear as though he had been crucified.
Thanks for those links lwtc247. Unfortunately I have a really old and crappy computer [and no idea how to upgrade it] so I can’t watch those videos at the moment. But I’ll try at some stage.
I’m no expert on Islam [or Christianity for that matter] but I do like to learn and I am always on the lookout for information.
You write that ‘Muslims pay tremendous respect to Jesus’ but then you go and say that ‘Islamic teaching shows him as a prophet’. So you have immediately downgraded the Son of God to a Prophet. That’s disrespectful to a Christian no matter what way you look at it. And if Christians are correct and he was indeed the Son of God then, it follows, that it is disrespectful to Him, that He is highly unlikely to return as a Muslim, and that there is, therefore, absolutely no chance of Him being buried in Mecca.
Anyway, what reading I have done has informed me that Muslims believe that Jesus will return and fight a great battle with the one-eyed anti-Christ [al-Dajill or something like that] which he will win, thus giving victory in the battle of good versus evil to Islam. Doesn’t sound like the sort of thing that would be left to a mere Prophet. But that’s beside the point. I think we can both agree that Jesus abhors violence and would not make a particularly good military leader. ‘Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth’ after all. Is Mohammed due to return also?
We do indeed have a record of Jesus’ ‘revelations’. It’s called the Bible. But how and why is the Qur’an ‘protected’ from ‘corruption’ and the Bible not? That’s bordering on an insult.
Your last sentence was curious. I can’t for the life of me work out why on earth Jesus would not be crucified and then made to look like He was crucified. Can you enlighten me?
Matt. I can’t change the Islamic view of Jesus and the view of Jesus as prophet isn’t MEANT to be offensive.
The Rabbinical writings on Jesus however are deliberately cursive of Jesus, as they are to his mother Mary.
To a Muslim, calling Jesus a Deity is offensive, but the fact that MC&J’s believe in The One God, God The Creator, means we have long ago acknowledged the differences between our beliefs and tolerate it. there is nothing more important than belief in The One God.
If the Christians can ignore what the elevated Rabbis said about him and his chaste mother, you can see the Christians are going to be far less upset at the Islamic view of Jesus.
Jesus was a Muslim as were all prophets, because a Muslims is simply one who submits himself to God. Today’s Muslims primarily bear racial and cultural hallmarks and is probably what you are thinking of as being a Muslim. The identity of a Muslim is in the heart and mind not in the outward appearance.
Islamic teaching says the Prophet Muhammad(saw) said Jesus “would be buried next to me” I don’t think anyone is going to move the body of Muhammad(saw) to Jerusalem or Hebron or whatever, and to a Muslim, if you believe the Islamic prophet, there is little point in debating it.
I think I’m right in saying if MC&J’s embrace Jesus next time around, there will no longer be any differences between believers as Jesus will spell out clearly what is right and what is wrong. No believer will or can challenge that.
The Imam Mehdi from Mecca will be spearheading the Army against the Antichrist. Jesus will descend from the heavens to aid the Mehdi near to the Holy Land.
The Antichrist is not really a human being. Killing him is a gift to human kind. But the history of the Prophets show killing under divine decree was permitted to them. Read the wiki entry on Moses and Joshua.
Try and get a new computer Matt – 2nd hand ones even – there pretty cheap these days and there so many great documentaries and mind food things out there – yes a lot of crap too, but switch on your human filter.
Mohammed(saw) will not return. Only Jesus. I think the NT Bible books are 3rd party accounts of Jesus, e.g the Gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John… Thessalonians.. Revelations. etc. (sorry my NT knowledge is rusty these days) and even then, the Council of Nicaea may have done to the gospels what John K said of the Qur’an earlier in terms of ‘convenience’ for want of a better word. Christian scholars acknowledge these books were written after Jesus’ death.
I’m referring to what I think is a ‘book’ from God to Jesus in relation to his prophet hood. None of this is meant to be insulting.
Why did it appear he was crucified? I’m not sure. A rough guess is to cement the case against those who opposed and oppressed Jesus, but I’m not sure if we are told why. I’ll have to look it up. It may even be on one of those videos.
Interesting Q’s you have. Strange that it’s taking place here. Hope it’s OK with Craig.
Yeah, lwtc247, it is a bit strange it’s taking place here. Hahaha. Who would have thought it, hey. I don’t think Craig will mind but if he does he can always click the delete button. And isn’t this the way to resolve [or perhaps ‘understand’ would be a better word to use] our differences?
I’m spewing that you can’t tell me more about the mysterious non-crucifixtion. I’m quite sure that it did actually happen. He had to show that He was prepared to pay the ultimate sacrifice for humankind. And, of course, according to the Bible, he was taunted while on the Cross to get his Father to bring him down. But it didn’t happen. He didn’t do it.
By the way, I never used the word offensive. I just said that a Christian would find the Islam’s view of Jesus to be disrespectful. Although I suppose that could be offensive. It doesn’t offend me, though. I just think you’re wrong.
You referred to the Rabbinical writings on Jesus. Well, I don’t think the Jews think very much of that Man. They were the ones that crucified Him, after all. And today they don’t bother with Christmas or Easter. I suspect that Rabbinical writings play down His significance. They wouldn’t want to be accused of Deicide, after all. Could be wrong but … oh well.
Jesus was not a Muslim. You are wrong.
The Prophet Mohammed may have said that Jesus will be buried next to him but I just don’t believe that Jesus will come back as a Muslim. It just doesn’t make any sense for reasons outlined earlier. It’s not that I don’t believe Mohammed, I just think that he’s wrong. And it would appear that we are indeed ‘debating’ it.
Because I reckon Jesus will come back as a CHRISTian I wouldn’t be surprised if he wound up some place like Colombia. It’s an oppressed Third World country and, as far as I’m aware, it was the last Christian nation to seperate the Church from the state. I’ve been there. Religion is ever present. It’s also a Catholic country and it makes sense to me that Jesus would come out of the largest religious denomination in the world today. But that’s just speculation. Or is it ….. jiji.
I like what you say about Muslims, Jews and Christians embracing Him next time around. I also believe that He will spell out what is right and wrong. But I don’t know about the Jews embracing Him, though. They have that track record of killing Him, after all. I reckon He might be a bit pissed off about that. And what they’re doing in Palestine at the moment.
It’s interesting you mention the Iman Mehdi and his army because Muqtada Al-Sadr’s army in Iraq was called the Mahdi Army wasn’t it. And ‘president’ Bush certainly fits the criteria for an anti-Christ figure to an extent. He’s certainly the antithesis of Jesus. Born into wealth and privilege, not very hard working, pretty f**kin’ stupid, loves violence, lies etc. etc.. The only thing is that he was not popular. Although after 9/11 he was so maybe he fits that criteria too. I really really do hate America for allowing that man to do what he has done. That’s not very Jesus-like of me is it! Haha. But Jesus did get angry, so maybe it is. Anyway, at the end of the day, Jesus didn’t ‘descend from the heavens’ but Sadr’s army did kinda just melt away which I thought was a little curious. Last I heard he was in Iran. Have you got an update? I quite liked him. And some people think that what with the world economy imploding under the weight of it’s own greed, climate change and the rise of Barack Obama we are indeed entering the End Times. What do you think? Time frame suits too. Y’know, start of the new millenium and all that.
Oh, look, thank you very little for the advice about new computers and human filters and all that but you have no idea what my circumstances are at present and if anyone’s ‘human filter’ is switched on it is mine. But ta for the thought.
I didn’t really understand what you were trying to say about the New Testament etc.. Was it that the Bible is inaccurate because it was written after Jesus’ death? John K reckons that the Qur’an was too [after Mohammed’s death that is]. I actually find the Bible a bit hard to understand. The language is pretty old after all. But I get the important bits. Y’know … the gist.
You say that killing was permitted to the Prophets under divine decree. Jesus didn’t kill anyone and, as far as I’m aware, He never called for anyone TO be killed. Quite the opposite, actually. That’s why I think He is a better role model than Mohammed who was also a warrior. Right? Much as I like a good warrior. Like Julius Caesar or Achilles.
I sort of agree that there is nothing more important than a belief in one God. I just think that when Jesus returns he will want to be amongst those who believe in Him the most. Those that afford him the most respect. But now we’re getting back into Son of God versus Prophet territory. Oh, and I’m a golfer so I curse the Golfing Gods regularly. All of them!!! hahaha. Is that blasphemy?
Hope to hear from you soon.
Oh, lwtc247, I just went back and noticed that you explained how the Qur’an was put together … umm … live [so to speak]. Thanks for that. I still don’t believe that that in itself necessarily makes it better than the Bible. By the way, why do you put this – ‘(saw)’ – in every time you mention Mohammed?
In reponse to MATT COSTIGAN’s post: I also dislike theories about how human happiness can be achieved, and how economies can be run, because anything involving humans is not a science. And that’s because we know so little about the human mind and what drives and controls our behaviour. Therefore, any economic theory (e.g. Adam Smith’s “invisible hand”) has to be extremely accommodating to humans, and not at all dogmatic.
Also, I wasn’t implying competition is bad. But it’s becoming all there is to life, that whoever remains standing at the end of each bout of “competition” is considered the “superior” being – the winner in an ongoing evolutionary struggle. This is what many top politicians believe – that they are where they are because of their “superior” genes, and, therefore, have a right to become parasites and grind us down. As I said, this isn’t evolution at all – it’s a grotesque distortion!
Fans of “Darwinism” also distort reality, by ignoring consciousness. According to the theory of natural selection, our genes determine what we are. In effect, we are zombies, obeying a biological program, whose instructions are the four letters: A, C, T, and G. Is this really the case, though? Do we observe our actions, but, like in a dream, cannot control them? Surely how we feel, what we think, affects our behaviour? Well, research bears out the latter case. Certain emotions are strongly linked to the reasoning and problem solving areas of the brain. In other words, emotions serve a purpose, and as emotions are part of consciousness, it means mental states and mental events DO alter our behaviour.
To give an example: you tell a meat eater about how animals are factory farmed. The meat eater experiences some emotions. Eventually, the emotions get resolved, and, despite being genetically programmed to eat meat, the meat eater becomes a vegetarian. An increased level of consciousness – or awareness – has overridden this person’s supposed genetic predisposition.
Therefore, how we behave is NOT written in stone – or contained in a theory – as evolutionists claim.
In fact, according to evolution, most males should be capable of killing an animal without any feeling – as males were, historically, the hunters – but that isn’t the case. I saw a TV program a few years back in which adults encouraged a group of children to kill a live chicken – it all smacked of the adults trying to indoctrinate children with evolution – evolution says you should be capable of killing a live chicken, so you will damn well kill one! There’s a famous celebrity chef who swears a lot, and likes to call people “simple minded”, who is also encouraging children – although, his, this time – to see the slaughter of animals as perfectly natural. So, you have to wonder how much is evolution and how much is culture?
As for atheism: atheists believe we are no different to stones, albeit with a more complex internal structure. But what about consciousness? Well, as it’s not a physical phenomenon, it’s an embarrassment to talk about, so it’s ignored – atheists pretend consciousness doesn’t exist!
How do you make a stone feel pain? No matter how much you “tinker” with its internal structure, the stone remains an insensate lump of matter. How do you get it to feel pain? And what is pain? Atheists seem to know. Like religious people, they have all the answers. So, I’d like to hear them, NOT THEIR BELIEFS!
But you see how clever atheists are. They get everyone arguing about religion, going round and round in circles, and then concluding that religion is a story, ergo there cannot be a creator – when we are dead, WE ARE DEAD! A creator is not the same as “God” or religion. Atheists are playing politics, THEY ARE NOT discussing science.
In any case, we were all dead for roughly 14 billion years, and then woke up on planet Earth. Who’s to say when we die, we won’t wake up again – somewhere else! You can interpret this statement “religiously” or scientifically, as takes your fancy.
I wrote: “…kill a live chicken…” – you can hardly kill a dead one! I think I wrote “live” to emphasize the unpleasantness of it.
Other John:
You might not be able to kill a dead chicken but one can certainly beat a dead horse! I think we can all relate to that. Especially these blokes – medialens.org. Anyway, here’s something I lifted from my blog that you might like:
Capitalism and ‘Freedom’
That was the name of Milton Friedman’s ‘seminal’ work published about 50 years ago. Milton Friedman is truly stupid and his influence has caused enormous damage throughout the entire globe. He’s dead now. And that’s a good thing. I suspect he is in Hell. That’s where I’d put him if I were God. I’ve done a bit of research into Friedman and it is my understanding that he spent virtually his entire career as an academic type. He also did a bit of high level consulting but he never really had his hands on the levers. He worked with theories and equations. And he was so stupid that he didn’t realise that a human being is not a theoretical equation. Alan Greenspan is another severely misguided soul but he actually spent his ENTIRE career working directly with business and, of course, as head of the Federal Reserve. Greenspan made a mistake. Pretty fucking big one, but a mistake nonetheless. I can work with that. And he plays the sax. I love the sax. I rate it right up there next to the electric guitar. Oh, and he had the sense not to fall for that other
“Best wishes and peace to all,”
You leaving the forum, Matt, or just bringing the discussion to a close? OK, I’ll make my closing remarks.
Two words: class war. That’s what really underlies all this. We are turned into equations because our lives don’t matter.
Anyway, criminals need an alibi in case they are caught, and that’s what all these theories add up to – an alibi for the poltical and business “elite”. Cheap Chinese labour is being used NOT because some complex economic theory says we need to become a service sector economy to survive, but because highly paid CEOs need very profitable companies to justify their remuneration.
Two books worth looking at:
“Progress Without People” by David F. Noble, written for the layman (layperson?), and “Forces of Production – A Social History of Industrial Automation”, written for the specialist, but still a very good read – although not to everyone’s taste (don’t say I didn’t warn you!).
Oh I’m not leaving the forum Other John. No way. I love this shit. I wish lwtc247 was hadn’t left. Maybe it was ‘cos I kept telling him that he was wrong. You are dead right about it being a class war. And the elite / corporate class hold all the power. Well, pretty much. That’s why I love those guys over at medialens.org so much. That’s how we’re gonna overthrow these c**nts. The internet. The problem is that they do truly and honestly think that they are doing the right thing. Easy for you to come to that conclusion though, mate, ‘cos you’ve got a pretty f**kin’ nice life.
Anyway, thanks for the book recommendations. I’ll try and check ’em out. Here’s one for you:
‘Eat the Rich’ by P.J. O’Rourke. Now this O’Rourke character’s a strange one. He’s one of those liberterians, pro free trade, Milton Friedman, Cato Institute etc. so you would think I wouldn’t have much time for him. But anyone who has written a book called ‘Parliament of Whores’ [hahahahahahaha] can’t be all bad hey. Anyway, it’s a ‘treatise on economics’ and at the same time a sort of travelogue. And it’s bloody funny. Especially the chapters on Albania and Cuba.
(Arrrg! I’ve made another long post!)
>Oh I’m not leaving the forum Other
>John. No way. I love this shit.
I wish I did. I become someone I don’t want to be when I immerse myself too much in politics. I hate this stuff.
“Forces of Production” by David F. Noble, however, is about the history of automation in the U.S., and how managers automated work even when it was unnecessary – as they wanted to maintain and increase their control over workers. A lot of the book is about the development of automated metal working machines, though, so it’s not your typical political book. Read the reviews on amazon.com, U.S. site.
I know about medialens.org; haven’t heard the book you mentioned.
I don’t think the Internet is changing things, maybe making a few people more aware, but that alone isn’t going to make a jot of difference.
The government is planning on spending $12 billion of OUR money on constructing a centralized database on all our online activity, allowing it to pry into our private lives in unprecedented detail – and where are the protests? There were protests in Germany, and in France. The French wouldn’t even tolerate a database on just their politicians’ online activities, let alone their entire population. So, the British are the ONLY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD – except for the Chinese (but they live in a dictatorship) – who are allowing the people in government, local councils, police, etc., to see what they do online without a court order or oversight. I spoke to one ISP that keeps a record of the sites its users visit (now mandatory under EU law, I think), and they said they had refused a number of police requests because they were trivial.
Once the people in government have their centralized database AT OUR EXPENSE, they will be able access this data 24/7 without asking anyone. The assurances of ministers are not worth spit.
In my previous post, I should have said that, even as we are being told manufacturing is passe, the new service sector economy is becoming outmoded, too. There are just too many jobs that the British won’t, or can’t, do, we are told.
Having been out-competed by the Chinese in manufacturing, we will soon be out-competed by non-British workers in many service sector jobs – even formerly well-paid ones like programming (in a BusinessWeek article, after reading the letters from his anxious employees, the chief executive of a software firm said that their anxiety has only fuelled his conviction that sending jobs abroad is the right thing to do).
Google “Revealed: Amazon staff punished for being ill” and “timesonline” for an article about how Amazon treats workers in Britain. The response from Amazon did not address the points raised in the article: low paid work, poor working conditions, billions in profits.
The stock retort that the British refuse to do such badly paid work seems to be belied by what Amazon said – they said people are desperate to work for them, and all their warehouse jobs get filled – many, however, by Polish workers. And there seem to be quite a few Polish workers in Britain. I spoke to someone on the Internet who said, at the firm he works at, there are many Polish workers, being paid low wages, and working very hard – even during their lunch breaks – believing this will lead to promotion and a good salary.
Before anyone accuses me of being a BNP supporter, my father’s side of the family were from Poland.
The BBC, in response to another round of layoffs, quoted a farmer, who said there are plenty of jobs for the lazy British to do – picking fruit!
Well, is seasonal work that pays barely above minimum wage suitable for someone who has to bring up a family? And what if you don’t live near these farms or have a car?
So this is our future according to the BBC: we do seasonal work if we can get it, paying marginally above minimum wage, and then we go on the dole until we can find other seasonal work. But once the Tories win power, you won’t be able to claim more than 24 months’ of unemployment benefit in your entire life, so after exhausting that avenue, you will have to live on the streets or kill yourself in desperation.
In effect, any job you get will pay far less than minimum wage – maybe £2 an hour – because you’ll need to save as much as possible to avoid – or stave off for as long as possible – the very real possibility of ending up homeless.
Meanwhile, educational standards continue to slip, even as an increased proportion of the population attends “university” (in quotation marks as many are NOT real universities – polytechnics, for example, are now also called universities). So, more and more people are being fooled into thinking they possess outstanding intelligence – and, hence, what I’ve been talking about isn’t going to apply to them.
Finally, you mentioned, a ‘Parliament of Whores’. We need Oliver Cromwell brought back to life, so that he can, once again, disband parliament – hang those pompous, self-seeking profiteers, out to dry – and run the government temporarily on our behalf until we can find a more honest group of individuals.
correction: not $12 billion – £12 billion – I read too many U.S. articles!
Just to add, the £12 billion database the government is going to construct so that it can watch everything we do online – type in our names and inspect our records, then monitor our communications in real time if it so wishes – is already having consequences. One person said he is no longer going to post comments on forums like this because he doesn’t want a knock on the door at 4am by the police.
I just can’t believe Britain is becoming such a surveillance state, an open prison – CCTVs everywhere, barriers everywhere – and the public are doing nothing to stop it. The tabloids have made everyone fear everyone else – we are all potential terrorists, rapists, thieves, and murderers now. ID cards must be carried at all times, cameras trained on anyone who doesn’t behave in the correct manner (software has been developed that can automatically identify and train cameras on anyone who doesn’t match a set pattern of behaviour).
I really don’t want to live in this country any longer. I just hope to God a project I’m working on pays off, so I can leave, and forget the UK.
Labour are evil. The Tories are evil. The Liberal Democrats are evil. They are all in bed with the corporations.
Britain is becoming another China. Our only freedom is what job we do. But we won’t even have that freedom if a number of loony psychologists get their way.