Both the Guardian and the Times have posts on Gallup’s Co-exist Index 2009.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6242313.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality
The Times headline emphasises the more positive finding that Muslims in the UK identify more strongly with British institutions than do the rest of the population. The Guardian goes for the more sensational but still very important finding that British Muslims are much less socially liberal than French and German Muslims.
If you read the whole report, rather than the Gallup press release, you find many other more interesting bits of information in a worldwide survey. For example, the least tolerant (or as I would put it the most bigoted) people in the whole world are Israelis. On page 14 of the report:
Israelis are the least likely of the populations surveyed in the region to report they always treat members of other faiths with respect and are among the least likely to feel they are respected by others. They are also the least likely to agree that most religious faiths make a positive contribution to society
You can download the full report here:
http://www.muslimwestfacts.com/mwf/118249/Gallup-Coexist-Index-2009.aspx
Of course, what Gallup’s opinion survey cannot tell you is why the groups surveyed hold their opinions. But we should not pretend that the extreme intolerance of homosexuality by British muslims is not a problem.
I reject the reports attempt to distinguish between “Eros and Demos”. (p30)
Although European Muslims not only accept but also welcome the freedoms, democratic institutions, justice, and human rights that characterize their societies, their perceived lack of integration is often explained by their rejection of liberal, sexual mores. Some researchers point out that the greatest differences between Muslims and Westerners lie more in eros than demos. In other words, the Muslim-West gap rests on differences in attitudes toward sexual liberalisation and gender issues rather than democracy and governance
Here the report pulls its punches. The questions asked frame differences in terms of attitude to sexual practices. It does not ask key questions like “Should a woman have the right to vote as she wishes irrespective of the views of her husband or father?”, or “Should a wife obey her husband in all things?,” or “Should a husband’s career take precedence?”.
Those questions would be much more useful in terms of determining whether there are gender issues which stray over from the realm of Eros to the realm of Demos – and I strongly suspect there are.
One of the worst things to happen to British democracy – completely deliberately by New Labour – is the coming together of the patriarchal system of British Muslim communities with the introduction of mass postal voting. If anyone pretends that the result has not been fraud on a massive scale and the effective disenfranchisement of Muslim women and subordinate males through loss of the secret ballot, they are a complete fool. The survey does nothing to illuminate this aspect.
But it is worth noting that several other religious groups display as much intolerance as the Muslims. I don’t think you would find sexual tolerance any better among Lodon’s numerous “Charismatic” christian groups, for example.
With all those caveats, the report has year on year shown much greater coincidence between socio-gender attitudes of Muslims, compared to the rest of the population, in Germany and France than in Britain. Ghettoisation is a huge problem in the UK, but I am not sure it is any less in Germany. What France does much better than the UK is integrated education. Tony Blair’s obsession with Faith schools was a disaster on every level. In Blackburn I witnessed apartheid – all white schools within a mile of all Asian schools. The truth is that Labour have fostered separate Muslim communities for a generation as a secure vote bank. The result is a disaster for social cohesion.
UPDATE
A comment below by Jungle points out that the different ethnic background of British Muslims may be in large part responsible for the differences in attitudes to French and German Muslims, due to the preponderance of Pakistanis here.
In fact that had been my initial reaction too, but I partially rejected it for the following reason. If you look at the same survey for 2007, the results and the differences between British and European Muslims are almost identical. But the 2007 survey, unlike the 2009 survey, makes explicit that poling was carried out only in capitals – London, Paris and Berlin. Inside London itself, Britain’s Muslim community is very ethnically diverse, with for example a very large and well established Turkish and Turkish Cypriot community, a big pre-evolutionary Iranian committee etc. We almost forget they are “Muslim” because they are so Europeanised. The Gallup methodology makes plain that Turkish and Iranian were among the languages used for interviews. The fact they still did not find one British Muslim prepared to tolerate homosexuality is therefore significant – they were not only interviewing Pakistanis.
Yes, I am sure ethnic differences are a factor. But they are not the only factor; and even if they were, they would not make the attitudes any more cceptable.
“Muslims in the UK identify more strongly with British institutions than do the rest of the population”.
I wonder why? Could it be because they get their own way with everything when they whinge?
The average indigenous Briton is just ignored and doesn’t feel like the UK is his home any longer?
Yep, that’s why the BNP are doing so well!
Christine
The BNP is not actually doing well – its a myth. Insofar as it has support its because of an uneducated white underclass which feels abandoned.
The comparative neglect of poor white communities in terms of provision of facilities and funding of support initiatives is certainly a fact – but it’s not the fault of Muslims or any other immigrants, it’s the fault of the government.
See:
http://antarena.blogspot.com/2008/11/religion-gone-rotten.html
Craig. This should stun those nasty anti-Muslim xenophobes. One could say UK Muslims are ‘stronger’ UK citizens than the traditional inhabitants.
I have enormous respect for Dalia Mogahed who features in some BBC commentary about this poll. She also features in one of the discussions on the ForaTV website I mentioned earlier.
Look for Irshad Manji & Dalia Mogahed: “Who Speaks for Islam”
Interestingly the Today program portrays Muslims as miserable yet their website paints a much more positive picture.
compare and contrast:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8038398.stm
—today radio link to follow in following post.—
Just wondering why the BBC hardly ever seems to put Muslims who don’t sound like Ali-G on the radio or TV. There are fine Muslim thinkers and orators out there, not just ‘yeah man’ types.
Today show link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8037000/8037498.stm
anticant from your past comments on CM’s site as well as your own, I’ve clearly seen you anti-Islamic “twitch” shall we say, and towards religion as a whole, clearly because religious scripture doesn’t tolerate you sexual perversion, or your pro-drug and anti-immigration outlook. The local Rabbi never seems to get a lookin however.
It doesn’t surprise me in the least you were one of the first to
“contribute” here, nor the probable fact of your sadness at hearing how UK Muslims strongly identify with the UK.
I hope you see the day when most of the people of the UK say the Shahada and The UK adopts Shariah law. 🙂
The good news is it’s probably never to late for you to say it too.
Craig, lets keep in mind the ‘gay issue’ as a proportion to the whole report, but I’d like to hear you out as to why you say it’s a ‘problem’ that Muslim (or Christian or Jewish) reject homosexual perversion.
It’s only a problem if you don’t happen to condemn the practice, an if it is a ‘rpoblem’ then it’s not the “fault” of Muslims, Christians or Jews, take it up with God.
lwtc247
“homosexual perversion”? What planet are you living on?
I often take your posts quite seriously and read them with some interest but you seem to have fallen off a cliff here.
I don’t ever want to associate with a God that excludes whole sections of society because of their relationships. Love is love whichever way you happen to slice it and should be treasured as such. Surely someone of your intelligence can see that the ‘homosexual bad’ attitude of too many religions is little different to the use of terrorists in our society – It predicates fear of the other, the death of rationality and a convenient target for the projection of negativity. It is no more or less than that.
The thing I find so odd about attacks on homosexuality is that it all relies on such a selective reading of the texts concerned. And, if the texts are so inviolable then we better get used to some pretty weird shit getting banned pretty soon (bacon butties for a start), followed by credit and don’t get me started on the multitude of ways we can justifiably start stoning women to death for.
Please tell me I’ve misunderstood your point because I so want to have done.
lwtc247,
If God shows up and tells me there is a problem, I’ll listen. No sign of him yet though.
Of course it’s a problem because it’s a desire to interfere in the freedoms of others. It’s cultural prejudice, simply. Bugger all to do with God.
Forced/arranged marriage, polygamy, consanguinity, honour killing – are these some of the British institutions muslims identify with? Lets face it – muslims’ views and practices on a range of issues are inimical to western views and values.
Drew Murray
The problem with your comment is that you could say exactly the same thing about Christians and Jews. All of the things you list can be found in the bible just as easily as in the Koran. After all there is as least one other poster here who’s views of homosexuality are “inimical to western views and values” and yet I have no way of knowing if that person is Muslim, Christian or Jewish. It’s an easy argument to make that the views expressed in any scripture or by any preacher are in some way wrong or even evil but you cannot ascribe such views to entire groups of people… it’s absurd.
Drew
One g ood thing about the survey is that it did address honour killings etc, and the results were encouraging. Significant percentages were willing to say they supported certain actions we might call “terrorist”. But there wasn’t significant support for honour killings.
Not one of the better posts I’ve seen on here, unfortunately. I rarely disagree with Craig but I do think this is off the mark.
There’s a major reason German Muslims are more tolerant, and it’s not a failure to impress on migrants their obligation to assimilate. German Muslims come overwhelmingly from Turkey, a much more socially tolerant place than rural Pakistan, where most British Muslims come from. This could have something to do with it. I’m not sure about Muslim migration to France, but it wouldn’t be surprising to find that the big Lebanese minority tended to be more liberal…
You also seem to say (without apparent evidence) that all or even the majority of male Muslims oppress their wives and daughters and bar them from having independent opinions. I’ve met plenty who don’t, and you will of course see large numbers of women voting (and getting elected) in elections in Muslim countries, including Pakistan.
Plus if there really is a significant male-dictated bloc Islamic vote, the Labour Party are fools if they expect it will go to them, given that they’re still putting Phil ‘dog-whistle’ Woolas on public view.
Of course we should be concerned about promoting social liberalism, but there’s hardly a cause for panic. The clock is not going to be forcibly turned back on social liberalism by a few percent of the population whose views are on average a generation or two behind those of the majority.
Jungle – you are correct, and is it any co-incidence that Pakistan is now on the verge of a theocratic takeover? I think we should be seriously worried about this survey. That a sizeable faith-based section of our population should hold such un-liberal views is a serious cause for concern. I’m surprised the far right of the Tory party is not canvassing for votes in Muslim areas. They probably are. For me, it shows that the policy of multi-culturalism has been a failure.
Chris at May 7, 2009 8:08 PM
“It’s an easy argument to make that the views expressed in any scripture or by any preacher are in some way wrong or even evil but you cannot ascribe such views to entire groups of people… it’s absurd.”
I am not talking about the Bible or the Koran but about cultural practices. Pakistanis in Britain, for example, are thirteen times more likely to have children with recessive disorders than the general population due to consanguineous marriages.
Craig at May 7, 2009 8:24 PM
Police estimate 12 honour killings per year in the UK. A small number perhaps, but significant if you are one of the victims. It’s reassuring to know, however, that support for this practice is not wide spread.
Multiculturalism has indeed been a dismal failure, and I shall ignore the ignorant insults of lwtc247. He is welcome to his primitive and socially retarded religion so long as he minds his own business and allows me what he charmingly terms my “perversion”. But no: he hopes I “see the day when most of the people of the UK say the Shahada and The UK adopts Shariah law” (and he and his pals can legally enjoy throwing me of tall buildings a la the teachings of the “moderate” Muslim Sheik Quradawi).
Being 25 per cent. genetically Arab, the last thing I am is racist. But I am a passionate social liberal, and have fought for personal freedom of thought and behaviour throughout my life. I am not intrinsically interested in Islam – its childish fairy-tale view of life bores me – or in any other religion; but if it presents a personal threat to me I am bound to pay attention to it and to seek to drag it kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
http://antarena.blogspot.com/2008/02/open-letter-to-ibrahim-lawson.html
“jungle” has hit on a major aspect of the matter – that when Muslims are referred to in fact what is meant is Pakistanis – actually it’s probably Pakistani/Bangladeshi.
Both political parties went out of their way to recruit spokesmen/women for the UK Muslim Communities almost solely from these two ethnic groups: look at the composition of the executive boards/councils of any of the national umbrella organisations; which means that they are wholly unrepresentative.
Where are the Turks, Moroccans, Syrians, Sudanese, Malays, East and West Africans? Many of these groups have much more sophisticated and urbane approaches to life than the village Punjabis and Sylhetis who make up the bulk of the Sub-Continental UK Muslim population.
And the obsessions that have been reflected above of “honour killings”, female genital mutilation, genetic disorders, first cousin marriages, and the like are not – by and large – problems of theirs (most of these are not even “Islamic” – as my late friend Dr Muhammad Zaki Badawi KBE used to exhaust himself pointing out to media and politicians – not that it clearly had any effect).
lwtc247,
one book I found useful was “BrainSex”, ISBN 0 7181 2884 2, published in 1989. It’s about the differences in the way the sexes think, and not particularly about homosexuality. However, it refers to several case studies that show that gender is not a simple polarity, but rather a spectrum. To take the most extreme example, a person can be genetically female (XX chromosomes) but have a “male” body. Such people feel “trapped in a body of the wrong sex”.
If you believe in a Creator, then surely Creation itself is a better guide to that Divine Mind than any religious opinion – you simply cannot break any law of nature.
Beware the old, old trick and tool of the addicts of power – “Divide and Rule”.
lwtc247,
you seem to be drawing the ire of the eighty years old survivor whose expensive drugs are getting paid for out of the public purse, and despite this, he finds the notions of “mushy brined lefties” unpalatable, obviously fully realizing that the good old righties are benevolent enough to set up mass free medication for the population at large, just out of goodness and philanthropy, the way these set up banks to rob us, and defraud us, and when they were bankrupt to come back and rob us some more.
The same confusion reigns supreme during the declaration of the failure of “multiculturalism” seeing as the auspices of “multi” does not include the culture of “gayness”, clearly indicative of the fact that this denouncement is only a short hand for any old fashioned racist to vent their racism without being branded as such, all in the best possible taste.
Furthermore fact that 25 percent Arab kicks around somewhere in every man walking somehow ought make notions of racism moot, hence we all can get on with heaping the profanities and stereotype on the minorities whom happen to be of a slightly differing appearance!
Trouble with rabid racists posing as the secular liberal upholders of “our values” (whatever these may prove to be?) these somehow forget the fact that human genome is one race. Alas, science finds for a racial divide there is a need for minimum of thirty five percent of differentials in the genetic material between the variants. However the maximum differentials between the most varied human beings is no more than twelve to fifteen percent. Hence the notions of racial divide finding roots in ;popular “wisdom, and cultural constructs” rather than in facts of science. Therefore, “twenty five percent” would actually include all of us, which could mean we too can be as obscene, and and obnoxious and still remain above the “slurs”!
However, the fact that as late as 1954, poor Alan Touring was forced into committing suicide by the very same bunch of ingrates whose nuts he had helped so successfully to be pulled out of the fire, all due to the fact that he was a “queer”, and fact that there were no Islamic influences anywhere to be discerned having been deliberately overlooked . Hence the notions of backward looking Islam somehow takes on a new meaning, but hey, who cares whilst the pseudo government of the land is bent on promoting racial divisions, all in the way of making acceptable their contemptible misadventures in Iraq, and Afghanistan, that have literally brought the country to the brink of bankruptcy, there always remain the deluded individuals whom will use the excuse to jump on the band wagon and vent their frustrations, covering for their inadequacies, and making their existence as acceptable.
Finally, for all those year that British East India company was ripping off the resources of the far flung lands, which as we all know (to use the sound bites of the spin doctors) was the patrimony of the current batch of the “different looking” bunch, hence highlighting the stakeholder interests of these minorities in our current society which has been built on the generous helpings of their patrimony. Therefore, to find the condescending homilies about the good Muslims, and good blacks, and good browns whose assimilation is not one hundred percent but getting there, all the while pushing these to denounce their roots just because we tell them so, for the sake of fun of it, and to satiate our supremacist tendencies. Is not only obscene, and racist, and in bad taste, but also is a reckless discount of the simple rule, our culture has been enhanced only through cross pollination by other cultures, and the same goes for our gene pool, therefore, accepting others we perceive as “different” is not discounting our uniqueness, but in fact enhancing our own uniqueness even more than before.
But, hang on then the minorities, would feel these can ask for equal status, and that we cannot tolerate, just think who will be working for fifty pence an hour, seven days of the week, fifty two weeks of the year? (That is self employed, and or wage slaves)
Happy Clappy, you obviously don’t like me, and I would ignore your abusive rant with the contempt it deserves if it weren’t so replete with misrepresentation.
I have always supported the National Health Service, and have gladly contributed to it as a taxpayer throughout my life. I hope that when you reach the stage in life when you need the level of support it gives me it will be still be in a condition to provide it for you.
I am no more a “rightie” than I am a “leftie”. I am not tribalist in politics. I am an extreme moderate and mutual tolerance is my social watchword.
You wilfully and malevolently misconstrue my attitude to ‘racism’ (that weary boo-word of the addlebrained Left). I have nothing against anyone’s race or colour. The problematic issues around social cohesion are to do with religion and culture. I would like to be proved wrong, but I do not believe that the historic and unbending tenets of Islam are compatible with Western-style social democracy. I do not wish to see a British Caliphate.
Gay rights have nothing to do with ‘multiculturalism’, which, however unintentionally, has produced British ghettoes. Gay rights are about social diversity and tolerance.
I am in total agreement with you about the follies, lunacies, and mendacity of this dreadful government and I’m no fan of the unlamented British Empire, but neither am I responsible for the misdeeds of my forebears. And I don’t believe any section of society should be economically disadvantaged.
I don’t suppose you are the sort of person who apologises for your rancid bile, so if you continue to spew it out I shall ignore it from now on.
Jungle
I have added to my main article to cover your ethnicity point. In short, that was my first reaction too, but on digging in the research, it isn’t the explanation. But even if it were, how would it help.
Of course I don’t think all Muslims are patriarchal bigots. But having interacted intensively with the Muslim community in Blackburn over four months, these attitudes are still very strong there and a real problem.
Nobody works harder than I against the persecution of Muslims which certainly does happen in this country. But to shut your eyes to the retrgrade social attitudes prevalent in many traditional Muslim communities, doesn’t help anybody.
It’s the same planet as you Chris and it’s a planet inhabited, for what it’s worth, by a lot of people to whom sexual acts between same sex people is a perversion. I don’t see the need to apologise, disguise for that belief or conform to what post modern pressure in isolated parts of the world. I think it’s likely Hinduism has a similar outlook and most other religions and cultures.
I don’t think it can be said this opinion is cast upon believers in God, resulting from selective reading of religious texts. I think classical teaching is quite clear.
I happen to think drugs are amoral, public nudity and public sex are immoral, shagging ones parents etc. No doubt you have moral boundaries about at what age sex with a young person becomes child abuse. There are many moral boundaries. It’s not about love or relationships, it’s about the choice to engage in sex between two people of the same gender (inc. gender bender issues)
The pro-gay lobby harp on about respecting peoples choices, but they are only happy if those choices are in line with their choice to have same sex relationships. Where’s the tolerance for my moral standpoint?
There. Now, about the non-homo, more important elements of the report…
/so much for that’s all folks/…
Retrograde is a relativism. A man made construct.
God believers take the social norming from scripture, some others take their social norming from the pro-gay lobby allowed to manifest due to the redirection of peoples focus with regard to social issues largely consequential on the consumerist lead society we have today. I think Ahmadinejad was alluding to this when he gave a speech to Columbia(?) U a while back: The ‘we don’t gays like you in the west’.
As a believer in God, gay social norming from man is in contradiction with Gods ‘teachings’ and is an act of Shirk – giving something higher status than that prescribed by God.
It’s not /really/ an issue of discrimination in the sense that not all discrimination is wrong. Discrimination against paedophiles, murderers, drug pushers etc. All of us sanction discriminate against them by means of Herr mudjesty’s pleasure.
But there is an element of discrimination as to have gay sex is a matter of conscious choice {and moments of madness do not escape from that category either).
@Craig Re: not finding God yet, you need to look harder. Like many aspects of life, one doesn’t always look with the eyes.
lwtc247 – your views really are very reactionary. In your world view the only sex permitted is a man having penetrative sex with a woman, in wedlock presumably. Don’t you think relationships are about more than sex? Don’t you accept that many heterosexual relationships are abusive? Do you accept that same sex relationships can be loving and stable? This world is a fucked up place and if two people love each other and are prepared to live together and contribute to society I don’t give a toss whether they are a man and woman, or the same sex. Look at the Baby P case and dozens like it. Hardly an ideal world is it?
Anticant – respect to you for standing up against these bigots. As Mark Twain once said, “Faith is what you know ain’t so”. Faith is a man-made construct, unlike racce, gender or sexuality, and as such it should have NO protection in law. I should be free to slag off all religionists and they should be free to slag me off, without let or hindrance. Once you start legislating for faith and belief where does it end? Little Green Fairies at the end of the garden?
@ anticant.
And I am in full agreement with you on torture and +most+ human rights issues, and I would imagine I would strongly agree with you on a lot more other issues too. But I call gay sex a perversion. C’est ca.
Thanks for ‘not’ responding to my alleged insult by issuing an insult in return and who mentioned the conventional strata of western politics? Not I. I’m what one may call liberally contemptuous about any side of the artificial left/right divide.
Neither did I mention anything about the subject matter of being “economically disadvantaged.”
You said “The problematic issues around social cohesion are to do with religion” yet this is at odds with what you write about on your blog.
P.S. May I suggest a post from you denouncing the hitherto vacuumous frequency of the Judaic view of homosexuality.
To me sex between two men, two women or orgies or rimming or whatever, isn’t a matter of persuasion by force of argument, and I suspect you will have a similar view (in the latter respect anyway).
I think we need to agree to disagree on the homosexuality point and agree to work in the common ground. In fact, thinking other issues are more important right now, I’d much prefer that (whether I am ‘misguided’ in that opinion I don’t know) and it’s what the overwhelming number of UK and European Muslims actually do. Just look at GG’s Respect (or ‘Respect Renewal’) It’s lead by a man of a homophilic persuasion and has voted for gay rights, yet many Muslims support GG.
“In your world view the only sex permitted is a man having penetrative sex with a woman,” – Is that what your crystal ball said? Bring it back mate, you’ve been had.
After you get your refund, may I suggest you go back and address the lies you told about Pilger’s sacking and that the eddie decreed guilt of those tortured in Guantanamo?
lwtc248 (not 7?), some of my comments you refer to were addressed to Happy Clappy – or are you the same person?
I am a firm believer in mutual courtesy in debate. I reprobate ad hominem attacks, and only respond to them when, as in his case, they are travesties of my views.
Yes – we must agree to disagree about homosexuality and also about much else in the Muslim sexual code. As Craig says, it is retrograde in modern British society.
When you complain that I ask you to tolerate my views, but don’t tolerate yours, this is because yours are intolerant, and mine are not.
If you can muster sufficient empathy, try to imagine what it is like to know that your personal emotional and sexual attraction is strongly or exclusively towards your own sex, and also to know that any physical expression of these feelings, however private, is a serious criminal offence. This was the state of things in Britain until I was 40, and I played a leading part in campaigning successfully for Parliament to change it. I was supported by many leading Christians of several denominations. Please don’t expect me to apologise for what I did, or to accept that you or any other religious believer has the right to interfere with my private life.
I’m partly to blame, but it seems the issue of homosexuality is being seized upon (as is often the case when other ‘hot’ aspects of life come to the fore) to have a go at Muslims and Islam in the prime instance, and monotheism (other than Judaism) in the second.
And not it’s not a whinge, Islam is secure enough to stand securely to its position. But there are lots more things about this report that make for interesting reading.
I am reminded of Amina Wadud who lead a mixed congregation for Friday prayers. It is said she did it as a protest against what she called female discrimination in Islam. She was heavily criticised for doing so, and actually it perfectly proved her point, as virtually NO criticism was directed to the men who followed her in the prayer making the congregation mixed. Not even she realised this.