For me, any sensible discussion of Iran must accept a number of facts. I will set these out as Set A and Set B. Both sets are true. But ideologues of the right routinely discount Set A, while ideologues of the left routinely discount Set B. That is why most debate on Iran is inane.
Set A
Iranian Islamic fundamentalism allied to fierce anti-Americanism was born from CIA intervention to topple democracy and keep in power a ruthless murdering despot for decades, in the interests of US oil and gas companies
Iranian anti-Americanism was fuelled further by US support for US friend and ally Saddam Hussein who was armed to wage a murderous war against Iran, again in the hope of US access to Iran’s oil and gas
The US committed a terrible atrocity against civilians by shooting down an Iranian passenger jet
Iran is surrounded by US military forces and has been repeatedly threatened to the extent that the desire to develop a nuclear weapon is a reflex
There is monumental hypocrisy in condemning Iran’s nuclear programme while overlooking Israel’s nuclear weapons
Set B
Iran is governed by an appalling set of vicious theocratic nutters
Iran is not any kind of democracy. It fails the first hurdle of candidates being allowed to put forward meaningful alternatives
Hanging of gays, stoning of adulterers, floggings, censorship and pervasive control are not fine because of cultural relativism. Iran’s whole legislative basis is inimical to universal ideals of human rights.
Iran really is trying to develop a nuclear weapons programme, though with some years still to go.
There are two very good articles on the current situation in Iran. One from the ever excellent Juan Cole. I would accept his judgement on the elections being rigged.
http://www.juancole.com/2009/06/class-v-culture-wars-in-iranian.html#comments
The other from Yasamine Mather, which puts it in another perspective.
http://www.hopoi.org/articles/elections%20June%202009.html
I am not optimistic about the outcome of the popular protest.
And bin Laden died in Dec 2001, according to Fox News.
http://tinyurl.com/mfs8y
“US funds terror groups to sow chaos in Iran”
Telegraph:
http://tinyurl.com/5j9fbn
“Severe repression now in Iran. What will it take for anyone on these boards to condemn the slaughter?”
I for one condemn all killing and this is no exception. It’s probably a little early to be talking about severe repression (demonstrators are still on the streets) or slaughter (the death toll so far of ten includes police). So far then it’s little more than an average afternoon on the West Bank.
But I fear severe repression and slaughter are a distinct possibilty. Another Tianeman Square cannot be ruled out. Politically, the strangely quiet Rasfanjani holds the trump cards. As Chairman of the Assembly of Experts he can, with a bit of behind-the-scenes wrangling, remove the Supreme Leader and get Mousavi or even himself in instead. The sooner he reveals his hand the better, I feel.
“like all your other fantasies over 911”
By the way eddie, I’m still waiting for a sensible response as to how all that thermite got into the dust. Or are you still too attached to your own fantasies about 9/11 to face up to that terrifying piece of reality?
“How all that thermite got into the dust” – simple, some little green men from Mars came and put it there. Then they took away all those planes with the passengers on board and they are all living happily on a planet somewhere far away. It’s just as believable isn’t it? Gibber, gibber. Send for the men in white coats.
Ah, Fox News and the Torygraph -very reliable. “CIA officials are understood to be helping opposition militias among the numerous ethnic minority groups clustered in Iran’s border regions.” Has Tehran moved to the border regions?? Dummy. Still no proof of any US involvement in these protests. Just more smears of brave people.
At least 30 dead.
“Iran finds US-backed MKO fingermarks in riots”
http://tinyurl.com/kqoe7v
etc etc etc
I need a chorus here, folks. Think only of the wooded vales of Langley, which as as close to the Throne of Heaven as one can get without turning into Beatrice. After me. All together now! One, two three…
!Let us all praise the freedom-loving USA, the CIA, the Pentagon, the DIA, the hundreds of wonderful, pacific and beatific bases, the harmonic nuclear peaceheads, the Conflict Resolution Drones, the sleek, Lear Executive jets (ah, the leather upholstery does rather go with those 1970s-style sun-coloured jumpsuits!), Old Uncle Sam Cobbly and All, who never, ever undertake anything underhand or covert or convertible, who never ever do anything less than benificent and who are truly, madly, deeply all-caring. Let the cosmic Stars-and-Stripes flood over everyone! Amen, amen, amen.
and Amen.
6% of the world’s population so kindly looking after the other 94%.
Who could ask for more.
Press TV is an Iranian govt sponsored propaganda machine. hardly an impartial source.
While we are on the subject. Press TV has an annual budget of £27 million and transmits its message across the UK. It propagandises for the Iranian government and seeks to convert Western audiences to its point of view by challenging Western orthodoxies and building support for the Iranian regime and its proxies such as Hezbollah, proof that the Iranian govt was behind the recent G20 riots. Your logic not mine.
Incidenally, that press relase from Press TV is a disgusting piece of work. The kind of thing that Mugabe would be proud of. Let’s blame the British, anyone but ourselves for the shit we find ourselves in.
MJ,
Ignore the stupid distractions posted by the troll. Just keep posting the information. Only fools will be influenced by the gibberings of one who avoids every issue raised and tries to divert the focus onto tired old straw men.
Here is the Kissinger interview again:
http://snardfarker.ning.com/video/kissinger-threatens-regime
From tomorrow’s Guardian.
Mohammad Khatami, a former president and another leader of the reformist camp, spoke out against the repression. “The provocative and insulting portrayal of our people who have been acting independently, and accusing their healthy civil protest to be an act of foreign influence, is an example of the wrong policies that further distance people from our government,” he said.
Quite so.
MJ
Don’t really want to go too far off the topic but the whole conspiracy theory about 9/11 does my head in a bit. The thermite theory by Steven Jones has been debunked quite sucessfully as shown in these websites:
http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/stevene.jones'thermitethermateclaims
I hope this will put an end to it and we can move back to the CIA involvement in Iran which is more realistic although i still think that the majority of this is internal power struggles.
Eddie
Maybe i’m wrong but you seem to think that the people on the street are fighting for democracy. Howeverm the person (Mousavi) they voted for is still completely for the current regime. He’s gone for Mohammad Khatami approach to politics and like Khatami he’s not interested in democracy or regime change. Also you shouldn’t dismiss the comments about the signs because there is no reason for the people who voted for Mousavi to complain in English to their government.
chris.glasgow:
It was just an aside really, referring to a discussion eddie, I and others were having a week or two back.
You may not be up to date on the thermite issue however. A new paper was published a couple of months ago by the University of Copenhagen Chemistry Department. They’ve found particles of active thermite in the dust from WTC. The debunkers are in a bit of a quandary and haven’t come up with anything coherent yet.
Anyway, back to Iran…
eddie:
I’ve got a lot of time for Khatami. He’s obviously a decent and thoughtful man and I find his mild, diplomatic tone far preferable to Ahmadinejad’s abrasive rhetoric.
It does seem however that there is a ‘reformist’ coup hatching and Khatami is clearly part of that. He may even have his eye on becoming Supreme Leader; that may be why he pulled out of the presidential contest.
Although the reformists’ agenda of more democracy, liberalisation of personal freedoms and a more conciliatory approach to the West may play well over here and among the Iranian middle-classes, on the domestic economic front things may be a bit less enlightened. I understand for instance that the reformists are rather keen on privatisation of major industries and services, in the Thatcherite mold. One reason for Ahmadinejad’s undoubted popularity among the poor is that he has had some success in spreading Iran’s oil wealth more widely and a reformist victory is likely to put an end to that.
Khatami’s words will be particularly carefully chosen at the moment and we need to read between the lines. Clearly he doesn’t want the impetus of the current discontent to be derailed by claims that it’s all a CIA plot. Obviously it isn’t; genuine grievances are being expressed. It is also the case however that outside interference is happening and it is disingenuous of him to suggest it is not. It probably just isn’t having a decisive effect. There’s a limit to what you can achieve with $400 million these days.
MJ,
Yes, genuine grievances are being expressed but that does not mean the protesters represent a disenfranchised majority. Neither does that mean that the CIA (and MI6)are not playing a large part in supporting the protesters materially.
Mousavi decisively won a pre-election poll that was a CELL-PHONE poll. Obviously only the middle classes were, therefore polled…..an entirely unrepresentative group.
Perhaps such a pre-election poll should be carried out in Bethnal Green before our next general election and the media should announce that George Galloway is favourite to be the next Prime Minister.
Independent polls in the US media predicted an Ahmedinejad victory by a ratio of 2 votes to 1.
Here is the Kissinger interview again:
http://snardfarker.ning.com/video/kissinger-threatens-regime
No American interference? That’s very nearly funny.
Chris/MJ
I know that Mousavi is a dodgy character – as a previous PM he must have blood on his hands and given that 400+ other candidates were rejected he is clearly a high establishment figure who would continue the present regime but perhaps with a softer face. But I think the people on the streets see him as a figurehead in a wider campaign for human rights and democracy. They do appear to be younger and more westernised and I do not honestly know why they are holding up signs in English – I prefer to think that is because they are an internet savvy bunch who know that they have to appeal beyond their borders, rather than being some sinister CIA plot. I do think the left has got themselves in a right pickle over this – many are claiming cia interference, smearing the protestors etc when we should all support those who fight oppression. This view from Dave’s Part seems to take a more sensible approach.
http://www.davidosler.com/2009/06/the_eighteenth_brumaire_of_mah.html
Talking of conspiracies (sorry this is off topic) there was a programme on Sky last night about the Illuminati. Apparently Ken Clarke and Denis Healey are members. The proponents of the theory that they interviewed were all American survivalist/ Rush Limbaught types and obvious nutballs. Perhaps this was journalistic licence but none of them could provide a shred of evidence for their potty theories.
Ken Clark and Denis Healey have been to Bilderburg meetings that’s all. So has George Osborne and many others. That doesn’t mean they are anywhere seriously near the centre of power. These are servants of the financial masters rather than real decision makers. They go to Bilderburger to be briefed on the global agenda for the following 12 months.
There is so much evidence of the malign influence of international bankers and the secret masonic societies they control that to use the phrase ‘not a shred of evidence’ is utterly ridiculous. Massive tomes, too numerous to mention, have been written on the subject and mountains of evidence amassed. If the media won’t talk about this that should be no surprise.
Those that are comfortable with Parliament, the City of London, local councils, the police and the judiciary being populated by a large and almost certainly dominating faction who have taken oaths of allegiance to EACH OTHER rather than the public they serve should, in itself, be a grave cause for concern…..
…..shouldn’t it?
Here is the Kissinger interview again:
http://snardfarker.ning.com/video/kissinger-threatens-regime
No American interference? That’s very nearly funny.
All the points made in the last few posts are good, I feel, even if they are conflicting; they may not be mutually exclusive.
This is a different area, but the Left also got themselves in a pickle over Bosnia in the early 1990s. You see, the Left obviously opposes US hegemony but this can lead it – a broad church, of course – into expressing support for movements/ regimes with which it has little in common except opposition to imperial hegemony. I know this point has been made this point before but it is a valid general observation.
The West (USA, UK, Germany, mainly) was aiming to break-up Yugoslavia for all kinds of reasons, while Russia, apart from the old Orthodox ties, saw this as an encroachment on its potential sphere of influence. But it was very complicated. The West was supporting Croatian Fascists and Russia, Serbian Fascists. This is not even to venture into the territory of the Kosovan Mafia, etc. and the drug routes, it’s all very complex, as I understand it. Meanwhile, people got killed, en masse. In the end, for what? For nothing. Frankly, Yugoslavia would’ve been better off staying as Yugoslavia, though with a less toxic leader than Milosevic.
But one had many people on the Left in the UK in partisan fashion tacitly or ridiculously defending the actions of the Serbian state and its paramilitary offshoots just because they knew that the West had supported nationalist (as opposed to federal) policians.
Sudan is another difficult an complex area, with everyone from the Christian Far-Right in the US to Salafists to right-wing think-tanks in the Uk fronted by ‘ex’-SIS officers, all throwing in their tuppenceworth.
There is a conflicted situation in relation to the Taliban et al as well. No-one who cares a jot about human life wants the Taliban in power in Pakistan and yet a continuation of the de facto (US supported) military rule of that country, which has resulted in the rise of movements like that of the Taliban and which has got the country into the socio-economic-political mess it’s in, is also a hopeless option. At least with some form of democracy (hugely imperfect, yes), there is the possibility of gradual – or sudden – change.
The fact is, situations are often are caused by longstanding imperial (Russian, US, whatever) policies of various sorts – colonialism, neocolonialism – and then other things happen (i.e. things get messed-up in all directions) and there is no straight and pure narrative path through the forest of the world.
Nonetheless, it is important to attempt engage in political cartography, all the while realising that the maps shift and change and are geological as well as schematic.
It’s much easier for the non-Libertarian Right; they just support empire, wherever it goes and whatever it does.
We shall see what happens in Iran.
Suhayl. That is a good post and I agree with most of it. It comes back to the danger of believing that my enemy’s enemy must be my friend, a notion that has caused tremendous problems for both left and right (Hamas and Hezbollah for the left, Al Quaida for the right etc). The situation in Iran is complex and the lesson perhaps s not to rush to judgement too quicklu.
Robin Cook said, quote: “There is no such organisation as Al Qaida and everybody with any connection to the intelligence services knows it.”
Dangerous words…..
…….poor fellow.
Here is the Kissinger interview again:
http://snardfarker.ning.com/video/kissinger-threatens-regime
No American interference? That’s very nearly funny.
“It’s much easier for the non-Libertarian Right; they just support empire, wherever it goes and whatever it does.”
An easy life. A bit like my father’s adherence to Catholicism, down to the last comma and full stop. Maybe I should change my politics – and revert to strict Catholicism. It’d simplify my life enormously. Everything in black and white and handed to me by someone else – no thinking required. 🙂
“It’s much easier for the non-Libertarian Right; they just support empire, wherever it goes and whatever it does.”
Sounds a bit like American conservatives I have known. I haven’t yet asked them what they felt when Obama won.
@ Suhayl Saadi
“You see, the Left obviously opposes US hegemony” – ???
If it did, it was in theory only. It certainly isn’t the case now.
“Russia, apart from the old Orthodox ties, saw this as an encroachment on its potential sphere of influence.” – Maybe Yugoslavia changed from the Tito days.
“many people on the Left in the UK in partisan fashion tacitly or ridiculously defending the actions of the Serbian state and its paramilitary offshoots just because they knew that the West had supported nationalist (as opposed to federal) policians.” – care to name a few?
“No-one who cares a jot about human life wants the Taliban in power in Pakistan…the Taliban and which has got the country into the socio-economic-political mess it’s in” – what utterly ridiculous and thoroughly stupendous set of statements.
“At least with some form of democracy (hugely imperfect, yes), there is the possibility of gradual – or sudden – change.” – Huh? Democracy has MANY q’s to answer before it can be seen as not beng in conflict with Islamic governance – Islam being the regions principal belief. What the people in these ‘conflict zones’ (essentailly conflict free when free of outsiders poking their noses in!!) is a government THEY would like from their own social, cultural and religious values.
At least you give some recognition to the problems from the meddling of others.
“there is no straight and pure narrative path through the forest of the world.” – Yes there is, but none YOU find palletable. That solution is the Islamic Caliphate. It’s quite simple.
I just want to write the 300th post on this thread. Pathetic, I know…
“You see, the Left obviously opposes US hegemony” – ???
If it did, it was in theory only. It certainly isn’t the case now.
I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN. BUT MOST LEFT-WINGERS REMAIN AGAINST US HEGEMONY; THE REST ARE IJEUTS. I DON’T REGARD NEW LABOUR AS LEFT-WING BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT. NIC COHEN ET AL ARE SIMPLY LIBERAL IMPERIALISTS.
WHEN THE ISLAMISTS WERE BEING FUNDED, TRAINED AND FED BY THE US, OTHERS CONSISTENTLY WERE OPPOSING THESE FORCES AND WERE NOT IN CAHOOTS WITH THE SOVIET UNION. READ HISTORY. YES, I KNOW. HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY THE VICTORS. SO READ HISTORY WRITTEN BY THE LOSERS, TOO.
“Russia, apart from the old Orthodox ties, saw this as an encroachment on its potential sphere of influence.” – Maybe Yugoslavia changed from the Tito days.
POTENTIAL IS THE WORD. RUSSIA ALWAYS WANTED TO GET (BACK) YUGOSLAVIA. TITO HAD BROKEN AWAY AND WAS NON-ALIGNED.
“many people on the Left in the UK in partisan fashion tacitly or ridiculously defending the actions of the Serbian state and its paramilitary offshoots just because they knew that the West had supported nationalist (as opposed to federal) policians.” – care to name a few?
A FEW OF WHO? FEDERALIST POLITICIANS IN YUGOSLAVIA, OR PEOPLE ON THE LEFT IN THE UK OR NATIONALIST POLICTIANS IN YUGOSLAVIA? PLEASE CLARIFY.
“No-one who cares a jot about human life wants the Taliban in power in Pakistan…the Taliban and which has got the country into the socio-economic-political mess it’s in” – what utterly ridiculous and thoroughly stupendous set of statements.
I DIDN’T SAY THE TALIBAN HAD CAUSED THE UNDERLYING SOCIO-POLITICAL-ECONOMIC PROBLEMS, I SAID THE MILITARY REGIMES HAD! PLEASE DON’T DISTORT MY WORDS IN THIS WAY, WITH ELLIPSIS. HOW CAN ANYONE DENY THAT THE ENDLESS MILITARY REGIMES AND THE PWOER OF THE ARMY HAVE HAD ANY USEFUL EFFECT IN PAKISTAN OTHER THAN EFFECTS WHICH SERVE THE INTERESTS OF THE US MILITARY-POLITICAL COMPLEX AND AN ELITE OF PAKISTANI MILITARISTIC-FEUDAL GROUPS. THEY CERTAINLY HAVEN’T SERVED THE ORDINARY PEOPLE, INCLUDING PEASANTS, WORKERS AND MIDDLE-CLASSES. THS TALIBAN IS A SYMPTOM OF THE MALAISE AND OF US-SOVIET IMPERIALISM. THE MALISE IS MORE DEEP-ROOTED.
“At least with some form of democracy (hugely imperfect, yes), there is the possibility of gradual – or sudden – change.” – Huh? Democracy has MANY q’s to answer before it can be seen as not beng in conflict with Islamic governance – Islam being the regions principal belief. What the people in these ‘conflict zones’ (essentially conflict free when free of outsiders poking their noses in!!) is a government THEY would like from their own social, cultural and religious values.
I AGREE ENTIRELY. ‘SOME’ IS THE OPERATIVE WORD HERE. ‘SOME FORM OF DEMOCRACY’. I DIDN’T SAY THAT ‘DEMOCRACY SHOULD BE IMPOSED BY WESTERN POWERS’! IF YOU’D BEEN PAYING ATTENTION TO ALMOST ALL OF MY PREVIOUS POSTS ON THIS WEBSITE AND ON EVERY OTHER FORUM AVAILABLE OVER THE PAST 15 YEARS, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT. WHAT A DISTORTION OF MY STATEMENTS THIS IS!
At least you give some recognition to the problems from the meddling of others.
THANK YOU. THE FEELING IS MUTUAL.
“there is no straight and pure narrative path through the forest of the world.” – Yes there is, but none YOU find palletable. That solution is the Islamic Caliphate. It’s quite simple.
O, GOD SAVE US! OR RATHER, GOD FORBID. READ THE HISTORY OF ISLAM, PLEASE!
“I just want to write the 300th post on this thread. Pathetic, I know…”
Dammit, I wanted to do that! Equally pathetic.
I’m well-read enough to know the hisorty of Islam and the history of Muslims doings things others labes as being Islam.
Not sure what history whose version of history you’ve read however.
Your socio-economic-political mess statment was ambiguous. Some do that be design. I give u the benefit of the doubt.
Thanks for the reply.