In the UK, we are understandably preoccupied with the fact that so many of our elected representatives are personally corrupt in terms of filling their own pockets, and appear not to be particularly distinguished or inspiring people. I actually do not believe the oft-repeated mantra that they all went into politics with good motives.
This country has been through a terrible decade. We have launched illegal wars on others, to further the economic interests of a wealthy class, and unleashed death, mutilation, poverty and grief upon millions in foreign lands. In so doing we made ourselves hated and then disliked the fear of retribution. We have substantially circumscribed our own liberties, hard won by our ancestors, and not cared because we were seduced by a dream of limitless wealth and ease. That bubble inevitably burst and proved to be based on an economic lie. Ordinary people will be paying for bailing out the extremely wealthy, for generations.
So extreme frustration is justified. But today, on the twentieth anniversary of the massacre of Tiananmen Square, we should remember that freedom is so important it is worth dying for.
That has never been a remote concept to me. I have several friends who have died struggling for democracy in Uzbekistan in the last seven years. I also still believe that the Second World War and the fight against fascism was a noble and necessary defence. Like many of my generation, there are close relatives I never got the chance to know because they gave their lives for democracy then. My mother’s only brother, for one. My grandparents never really recovered.
Today in China numerous websites, twitter, Flickr, blogger, livejournal and much else is closed down to try to prevent Chinese people from seeing any remembrance of Tiananmen. This blog was blocked there already, as it is is Uzbekistan and several other countries.
About half as many people as died at Tiananmen, died at Andijan in Uzebkistan, also massacred as they protested for democracy, just over five years ago.
When I was in Uzbekistan, the official line I was given by Jack Straw’s FCO was that Uzbekistan was following the “South East Asian Model” whereby economic liberalisation was bringing about social shifts and the development of a strong middle class, which would eventually lead to democracy. The existence of the model was not a nonsensical argument, though in Uzbekistan there was not any actual economic liberalisation, which invalidated the argument against criticising the regime.
In China there has been economic liberalisation. But precious little sign that this has led to real democratic development or even toleration of dissidence.
In those diaries, Zhao called the massacre of peaceful demonstrators at Tiananmen Square “a tragedy to shock the world”, and clearly stated it could have been averted, had any of the party leadership sided with his view that the demonstrators should be permitted to protest or otherwise be peacefully dispersed. The violent crackdown remains to this day one of the great signs that liberalization of China by trade and engagement has been a moral failure.
The greatest sign of lack of progress over the last twenty years, is the Chinese government’s attempts even today to deny what happened at Tinananmen Square, and its Herculean efforts to prevent its population from knowing about it.
Two decades ago the air was heady, communism was tumbling everywhere, apartheid was vanishing, freedom seemed possible. We are left with a sense of ashes in the mouth. In China, the repression in Tibet and of the Muslim Uighurs – the latter a far less fashionable cause in the West – continues undiminished. But even toleration of dissent is not increasing, and there seems no end to the totalitarian desire to control what the people may know.
China may be moving towards capitalism pretty quickly. It is not even looking in the direction of political freedom.
New Labour will not interfere in the freedom of the majority of people where it affects their perceived quality of life. They might of course outlaw people “glorifying terrorism”, which affects only a minority. Similarly with control orders similar to apartheid South Africa’s banning orders. They might outlaw “being in possession of information likely to be useful to a terrorist” which affects everybody, but the perceived effect is not great as again only a minority are prosecuted. Similarly “failure to disclose information”.
They might arrest people demonstrating for Tibetan independence when a Chinese dignitary is on town, or shoot innocent people’s brains out, conceal relevant facts, and also say that the policy leading to the death must be maintained to better protect us from Terrorism – but again, all this affects only the minority.
1997 was a slaughterhouse. I look forward to next general election night!
Oh no, not the WTC again. It’s like William Brown’s secret society and on about the same intellectual level. Read David Aaronovitch’s book on conspiracy theories. You may hate him but you can’t refute the research and the arguments. Conspiracy theory = history for the stupid. Where do you get this stuff? What next, Jews complicit in the Holocaust? Oh, I forgot, you’ve already peddled that one. I’m surprised you haven’t mentioned Lehmann borthers yet. Even Al Fayed now admits that Diana died because a driver was drunk and for no other reason ( and it cost us millions of pounds to get to that stage). But if it makes you happy, go for it. You know what? I could find a group of academics somewhere in the world who would find evidence of anything I wanted them to find. Academcis are as intelligent and stupid as the rest of us, and in my experience they are often the latter. They are frequently wrong and frequently blind to the truth. IF you know anything about the MMR vaccine you will understand the point.
“I remember when, I remember
I remember when I lost my mind
There was something so pleasant about that place
Even your emotions have an echo in so much space
And when you’re out there without care
Yeah, I was out of touch
But it wasn’t because I didn’t know enough
I just knew too much
Does that make me crazy?
Does that make me crazy?
Does that make me crazy?
Possibly
And I hope that you are
Having the time of your life
But think twice
That’s my only advice
Come on now, who do you
Who do you, who do you, who do you think you are?
Ha ha ha, bless your soul
You really think you’re in control?
Well, I think you’re crazy
I think you’re crazy
I think you’re crazy
Just like me”
eddie,
It is certain that Terrorists were responsible for 9/11. But who was in control of them?
You believe what you were told, because like a child you trust your government like a parent.
Others look at the evidence and ask questions. When they find the ugly truth, that it is our society and culture that is incredibly Evil – and not some alien one – they may seem a little bit crazy to the rest of society.
You meanwhile are comfortable in your naivety blaming Muslims – without even thinking about it.
I don’t think you are crazy – you are simply a sheep, asleep with a closed mind. Most members I know of the original Labour Party left it when they realised what a Fascist Blair and Nu-Labour was. In no way do they represent the interests of Labour – the interests of the Common Man.
Tony
eddie wrote:
“[The Labour Party]… is also the party that created the NHS, the national parks, built millions of houses etc…”
A rose by any other name, would still smell as blue.
Reminds me of another general, Smedley Butler, war is a racket.
Two decades ago some believed the direction many countries were taking to emulate our own, was a good thing. Twenty years ago, we deluded ourselves and still do today.
Sorry folks but I find it laughable that should western hegemony succeed (e.g. in China) then the world would have made {some, laudable} ‘progress’. Do I detect the seeds of the Empire are still fertile??
Our own govt is FAR FAR worse than the Chinese govt. Over the last 20 years, far FAR more people have lost relatives due to British illegal wars than have under the Chinese govt. and with the USUK DU legacy, many more generations are doomed by British hands. Then of course we have British Economic policy. How many hundreds of millions have dies as a result of those murderous policires, sorry, policy mistakes.
And of China (and Russia) don’t they have the right to stamp out US and UK influence? If you’ll allow the casual analogy, one thinks of African female circumcisers swimming the English channel razor blade gripped in jaws intent to cut the rose of all British women.
Weren’t the “pro-democracy” (whose definition/version of democracy anyway?) students connected with the Americans.? If only other South and Latin American governments had stamped out ‘Americanism’ then the century of death may never have occurred for them. It so happens China’s stamp was apparently a crime, and the wrong way to stamp.
To call Tiananmen an act of anti-liberalism is surely a fudge. Not that I’m particularly keen on Chinas “economic miracle (which is as fake as ours and WILL pop one day)” but it is possible the Country would be decimated and Hong Kong would still be British.
Oh yeaah! It’s thum Brits again.
As for WW2, why no repercussions of the scum that bank rolled WW2 Rothschild’s and BuSh’s? That Hitler is where the buck stops is frankly silly.
Tony
I don’t believe what I am told. I believe what I discern for myself. If you are stupid enough to believe that some vast conspiracy placed charges in the wtc and blew them up shortly after two planes entered the tallest towers you go ahead and believe it. If you believe that the hijackers were controlled by the CIA or other dark forces you go ahead and believe it. Your attitude is basically elitist, because it implies that the average Sun reader is too thick to understand the truth. It must make you feel so superior. IF you know the truth why is that no one will take you seriously? I think I know why.
As for the Labour Party not representing the Common Man (whoever he or she is), can you tell me why most trade unions are affiliated to the Labour Party?
I repeat eddie: the controlled demolition of WTC has now pretty much been proved. That’s proved. As in proved. You can witter on about David Aaronovitch to your heart’s content: unless he’s provided superior research on the content of the dust from ground zero his views have absolutely nothing to illuminate this matter.
Eddie is a spook. Why engage with him? There was a spook prick called ‘The Jessy’ that used to lurk on this blog. He seemed to leave after being outed and humiliated, but then another spook prick called eddie showed up. Coincidence? I think not. :-0 I notice he didn’t pooh pooh my John Smith assassination theory. Now, why is that? I know the answer. It is a theory that is barely propagated at all. Therefore, it doesn’t serve any purpose to argue it and draw any more attention to that theory, as opposed to your usual necessary 9/11 conspiracy counter arguments. 9/11 truth is mainstrean now and soon, if not already, the official parrots will be the ‘crazies’. He will squirm reading this post. Come now eddie, pooh pooh me…
And as for:
‘IF you know the truth why is that no one will take you seriously? I think I know why.’
That was funny. I know you know that’s not true, but still, very funny. Good one eddie. Hope I don’t upset you too much my old mucker…
One thing that was certainly less restricted in the 70s was the ability to discuss the probability that elitist class interests are sometimes pursued with deliberate and covert intent
Nowadays, sure as eggs are eggs, some useful idiot will attempt to confuse the issue by conflating that belief with belief in crop circles, space aliens, an undying elvis or Hitler worship
If that doesn’t work Plan B usually involves trying to obscure the issue by chucking insults around whilst claiming to hold some kind of moral or intellectual high ground
and as for awesome generalisations such as…
“Every conspiracy theory since time began has the same focus. “I know things you don’t and I am therefore a better human being than you.”
I’m curious to know if say, for example, the disgraceful state-sponsored Bologna Station bombing atrocity and the subsquent discovery of the P2 network counts as one of those conspiracy theories
It’s a funny thing, I always thought ‘conspiracy theorists’ were obsessed with infecting other people with their insane beliefs
Now I discover that we CTers don’t won’t anyone else in on the secret because then we wouldn’t feel so superior
If ‘eddie’ is a spook, which I very much doubt, his bosses should be asking for their money back
If eddie’s a spook I wish to complain, in the strongest possible terms, that our taxes are being spent on such low calibre operatives.
Not a spook. Not smart enough and can’t engage with evidence. Just a Zionist, New Labour fantasist.
Eddie,
Thanks for answering my questions.
Freedom is an act. A superior power bestows it on an inferior power. To know that one has it one has to act. To continually test the superior power.
From your experience, you are free to write letters of disapproval and therefore are in the happy and unassailable position of being able to comment on the letter writing freedom we enjoy.
Are you seriously extending your very particular experience of freedom to a wider, more general notion of freedom?
You disapprove of uk police tactics in demos. Good for you. How far will you protest that? May I suggest you try handing out leaflets? Possibly condemning the death during the G20 meetings in the City? Or the policing policy? Whatever you like.
Try a day of it. I would be extremely interested in reading about your experience.
Eddie
“Chris your comment is more sensible but unfavourably to compare Human Rights legislation with the fact that the Mirror no longer publishes Pilger (who really is a fool in my opinion) is laughable frankly. Is that the best you can come up with?”
I didn’t mention Human Rights legislation.
And no it isn’t the best I could come up with but I didn’t want to posit anything too intellectually challenging lest you failed to comprehend.
So no arguments, just abuse then? I am waiting. You said there was a huge deficit against freedom and liberty. I quoted the European Convention on Human Rights as an example of the extension of freedom and liberty. You quoted what? Pilger being thrown off the Mirror for writing turgid and tendentious polemics. Anything else? Do tell. As I said, is that the best you can do or do you just want to abuse people you can’t argue with?
eddie,
The trade union movement has been smashed to hell since Thatcher. Blair merely completed the job. What’s left of it is there supposedly just to represent workers in the public sector – the same public sector controlled by Fascist Nu-labour.
It’s beyond me why any trade unionist would voluntarily contribute to such a Fascist Government – maybe they think its the last chance they have of preserving their pension rights, or maybe they still think they actually have any real influence with regards to worker’s rights and can actually influence policy.
Personally I think all Labour MP’s who actually knew the truth about Blair’s lies re WMD and still voted for the Iraq War – should not only have over 1 Million deaths on their conscience – they should also be on trial for War Crimes against humanity.
The stupid ignorant ones – may escape a jail term – whilst charges against the rest may be escalated to treason – which I believe still carries the Death Penalty – which I am a fervent opponent against – as it is much too kind.
Personally I think people like Blair should be kept in jail for the rest of their lives as a living exhibit of evil – a bit like preserving a concentration camp as a museum piece.
Tony
Conspiracy theory, conspiracy theory…
“Which is the grandest conspiracy theory? The interpretation of 9/11 as an orchestrated casus belli to justify US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, or the interpretation that a handful of Muslims defeated US security multiple times in one short morning and successfully pulled off the most fantastic terrorist attack in history simply because they ‘hate our freedom and democracy’? Orchestrating events to justify wars is a stratagem so well worn as to be boring.”
Paul Craig Roberts, Assistant Secretary of Treasury under President Reagan
“As I said, is that the best you can do or do you just want to abuse people you can’t argue with?”
next thing we’ll be telling you is that we’ve just seen Elvis, eh?
Eddie,
I realise you are being debated on several fronts, but I am interested in whether or not you are willing to increase your personal experience of freedom by handing out leaflets supporting your views on current policing tactics. If you are in London, try it in the City. Providing, of course, that doesn’t break any laws.
I notice in your last comment you feel you are subject of abuse and so presume you would jump at the chance to answer some of my questions or undermine the assumptions I make in asking them.
I very much look forward to your response.
Tony Do you even understand what a fascist governement is? This just debases the english language frankly. It’s like trying to debate with an adolescent who accuses theur parents of being fascist. As for one million, where does that figure come from apart from the recesses of your mind? I assume you are familiar with the debate on media lens and other places on IBC? Their estimate is less than 100,000 – mostly killed by other Iraaqis, and certainly not by westerners.
I have been active politically for many years, I have leafleted, canvassed and picketed. I am happy to do more. Your basic thesis is that we are less free now and have less liberty now than thirty years ago, thanks mainly to the “Fascist” Labour government. I have provided evidence to the contrary and none of you has been able to contradict this, other than to post ludicrous examples of Pilger being censored, cctv and vague stuff about snooping and data collection.
Okay Eddie,
what about the fact that it is an offence to protest outside Parliament? That surely is the most base restriction of freedom and liberty there could be in a democracy.
The ability to protest against our so-called representatives is a fundamental freedom – is it not?
The fact that people have been criminalised for reading out the names of the dead. A restriction of freedom – no?
Once again (I really must stop, and I appreciate that) I apologise for the abuse. It is wrong and uncalled for.
There is a list of restrictions of freedom that characterise this appaling Government which really could run to pages and pages. Anyone who cannot see this seems to have been asleep for the past twelve years. I too was a member of the Labour Party. I regret that, and apologise unreservedly for any help I gave – in money or time – to facilitate an anti-libertarian, neo-con shower of bastards who have all but destroyed my country.
Eddie wrote ….
“Your basic thesis is that we are less free now and have less liberty now than thirty years ago, thanks mainly to the “Fascist” Labour government. I have provided evidence to the contrary and none of you has been able to contradict this, other than to post ludicrous examples of Pilger being censored, cctv and vague stuff about snooping and data collection.”
In response to your remarkable summary, please read and independently verify the article linked to below.
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2009/05/19/the-barbarians-at-the-gate/
Paragraph 3 has a long litany of laws, passed by the government.
See also, as mentioned in that article, a list of other acts passed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/series/a-z-of-legislation
I’m afraid the weight of evidence is very much against you eddie.
Eddie,
I would ask only one thing. Could you please recognise that abuse when directed by you is no less offensive than that directed at you.
eddie:
“I have provided evidence to the contrary”
Craig must have deleted it: I have trawled through your comments today and you have provided evidence of nothing, except perhaps your own dreary fantasy world. Perhaps not surprising really; you don’t really get on with evidence do you? Much more comfortable with belief.
As for the number of Iraqi deaths due to the US invasion, the current estimate stands at 1,320,110 (see link at top of this – and indeed every – page on Craig’s site).
eddie,
Whilst the following is not an example of a fascist government, it is an example of a dictatorship that is moving towards a fascist dictatorship and a Police State
I could mention the NHS (ask any hospital doctor or nurse), but instead will mention the police.
The Government have issued targets to the police which they have to achieve – or they will receive serious penalties in funding – you will need to ask a policeman about the details.
But the effect is to stop a vast percentage of the police from doing the job they want to do and are paid to do. Some police men and women still manage to do a very effective job – and I have personal experience of how very good they can be.
However, I also have personal experience of their policy of arresting extremely large numbers of teenagers who haven’t committed any offence whatsoever – and are never charged with any offence whatsover. At first I was of course shocked when the first time it happenned to my daughter – but I then discovered virtually all my friends with children the same age as mine – had had exactly the same experience.
The clear policy of the government was to arrest as many children as possible under any pretence – so as to take their DNA. They are then given a warning and released.
But this has very serious implications. It effectively criminalises an entire generation. It also means that they cannot for example fly to the USA on a visa waiver – and have to declare that they have been arrested – because the US immigration authorities have access to the UK police database. It also potentially affects them from all kinds of potential employment – even though they have never committed or been charged with any offence.
You might think this is O.K. – but I think this is totally outrageous. The EU court of human rights has demanded that the Government remove my daughter’s details including her DNA from their database – together with hundreds of thousands if not millions other children.
The Government refuses.
I want to see all these Bastards in Court. I will be on the side of the Prosecution.
Tony
@MJ – I don’t know much about justforeignpolicy.org – I believe the 1 million figure comes from the Lancet. I have posted (June 4, 2009 3:01 PM) more on this on another thread, where this has been raised also:
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/06/when_ministers.html#comments
Chris “what about the fact that it is an offence to protest outside Parliament?” – er, so why has Brian Haws been there for several years? I can assure you that any other country in Europe would have swept him away years ago. We are too tolerant of such people. Your rant says more about you than it does about the Labour Party. If people abuse me I will respond I am afraid, especially as the abuse is tenfold on your side of the equation.
MJ, you make a sweeping statement as usual but no facts. I have made reference to the European Convention on Human Rights signed by a Labour Government. Have you read it? Do you understand it? All of the petty instances of supposed infringements of liberty that you quote are as nothing in comparison to the rights enshrined in that legislation.
eddie the questioner – whoever you are – you should know by now that Monbiot is a polemicist and not a journalist. He refers to a single incident that says more about cockup than conspiracy, and the list of legislation includes those relating to anti social behaviour (don’t you support it? – millions do, I can assure you asbos are very popular where I live), human right and domestic violence, so to say that the evidence is against me is bollocks I am afraid. Next.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
MJ Iraq body count link. 100,000 and most of them are muslims killed by other muslims. I think they have a bit more expertise on the subject than you, don’t you think? Your figure of i million plus is in your head.
Next.
response to “eddie”:
“eddie the questioner – whoever you are”
– I ask the same question of you?
“- you should know by now that Monbiot is a polemicist and not a journalist.”
– Are you not a polemicist? Is that a crime or a deceit?
“He refers to a single incident that says more about cockup than conspiracy,”
-I haven’t mentioned conspiracy. How many defendants have been found guilty of Terrorist offences against numbers being arrested using anti terrorist legislation? Find out.
” and the list of legislation includes those relating to anti social behaviour (don’t you support it? – millions do, I can assure you asbos are very popular where I live),”
-What has that to do with freedom to peaceably demonstate against government policy?
“human right and domestic violence, so to say that the evidence is against me is bollocks I am afraid.”
– Vacuous
“Next.”
-Indeed.
Again, I challenge you to take up one of your own causes, mentioned above, print leaflets and hand them out in Parliament Square.
Good luck and thanks for the entertainment.
“I have made reference to the European Convention on Human Rights signed by a Labour Government”. Congratulations. Your point being?
“All of the petty instances of supposed infringements of liberty”
I don’t think a law providing for 42 days detention without charge can be described as petty. This is the stuff of Amin’s Uganda, apartheid S Africa, Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s Russia. History has never smiled on regimes that brought in this kind of legislation, whatever the pretext.
I take it the European Convention on Human Rights has little to say on the matter?