Head of MI6 Sir John Scarlett has come out saying the UK is not complicit in torture. I can tell you from direct personal knowledge that the man is a lying.
That is, of course, hardly news. Scarlett was responsible for the dossier on Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction, which was a tissue of lies from beginning to end. Any sane journalist would treat him with ridicule and opprobrium as one of the most notorious liars in British history. Instead they afford him undue respect.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8188307.stm
Not one of the government’s reponses has addressed the irrefutable evidence I gave to the Parliamentary joint committee. The extraordinary thing is that all the meetings I discussed were minuted and the minutes exist in the FCO. I released official documents referring to those meetings. If I were lying, the government would only have to release the minutes. This they refuse to do.
Craig
Real journalists dont exist now .Just notetakers who believe the spin and do what their editors tell them. Ask Helen Thomas.
His sins may be as Scarlett, but his words are white as snow.
The great thing is that these matters are now being discussed openly in the mainstream media. Even two weeks ago this would have seemed highly unlikely.
Of course Scarlett is lying. Hopefully most people are savvy enough to know that this is his job and that his denials can be tacitly understood as admissions.
Dear Craig
I have to agree with Keith, there are no real journalists of note anyone.
If they can’t understand it on an A4 page, they don’t want to turn over to page two.
People like Sir John Scarlett aren’t interested in anything but a quiet life and the gold plated pension.
He probably thinks if he keeps repeating lies then somehow it will become the truth.
Yours sincerely
George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
“I released official documents referring to those meetings. If I were lying, the government would only have to release the minutes. This they refuse to do.”
So. What address should we all write to, demanding that they release these documents? Like we did to demand that Craig be heard at the Parly Joint Cmmtee? Can we start another email campaign?
I came across a psychological explanation of your observation about the British media. Oddly enough, it was in a blog almost purely focused on software: Open Source at Eclipse http://eclipse-projects.blogspot.com/.
http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/11/i-cant-believe-my-eyes-conforming-to.php
Last night’s Radio-4 Westminster Hour talked about this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/the_westminster_hour/8192510.stm
One of the speakers mentioned that he had a lot of sympathy for Craig Murray over what had happened in Uzbekistan.
But the question “Shouldn’t we torture, if it makes us safe?” was put by Carolyn Quinn, which thankfully was dismissed by her correspondents. This type of debate, “Well – shouldn’t we be torturing them?” is thrown around in the US every time the subject is raised. Then torture becomes a matter of opinion, rather than the clear criminal activity it actually is.
If we don’t watch it, we will join the US in getting bogged down with debates about what _really_ constitutes torture? Is anybody _really_ responsible anyway, now we’ve rooted out a few bad apples and so on? Didn’t the evil-doers deserve “harsh treatment”? What could we do otherwise, if interrogators were so restricted? And the whole subject spins off and drifts away.
The position that _we_ didn’t torture them, so we have no responsibility, is akin to telling a judge that we have no responsibility for having a stolen car stereo in our possession, it was bought in good faith for £10 from a man in a pub.
Our security services provided a list of questions for interrogators. Did they expect these to be discussed in a legal manner with the suspects? Again, wouldn’t this be like having goods stolen to order, then claiming we got them in good faith?
Well the BBC seem to be covering the story this time as opposed to just covering it up. Although I admit I was perplexed as to why the interviewer on the Today programme this morning gave Shami Chakrabarti even more of a grilling and working over that John Scarlett and Kim ‘Official Mouthpiece of Gordon Brown’ Howells. I am sure there are still some decent, principled people who have remained Labour Party members throughout this torrid period of its history. Indeed I met one of them campaigning in Norwich. However I am sure they would not be too disappointed to lose the next general election as it would offer them a chance to get their party back away from the opportunists.
Thanks for this post, Craig, which says it all very neatly.
Glenn: “Last night’s Radio-4 Westminster Hour… one of the speakers mentioned that he had a lot of sympathy for Craig Murray over what had happened in Uzbekistan.”
Glenn or others, any recall of who exactly that speaker was? I may add him to my Christmas card list.
If Erik prince has been forced to deal with ‘friendly’ Shia/Sunni units and give out money to muslims to garner support for the US strategy of getthorising Baghdad, against his personal hatred for muslims and his avowed aims, and if he was under investigation, then one could assume that he was in the position from were to ‘generate’discontent and strife, to justify his demands to the US taxpayer.
Please tell me if my train of thought is implausible after the revelations, yet to hit our journo’s round the chops.
When will they wake up and realise that they have been listening to a choir of liars, that they have amplified and developed lies, taken them as gospel. Today, reduced to nodding donkeys, partly due to the downturn and the scaling down of media operations world wide, these journo’s are part of the system, every newspaper has its share of spooks, engrained/enbedded as Dijon mustard, so lets not be surprised if the Blackwater story is not seen in its necessarry context over here.
I agree with those who say that real journalists don’t exist. I am from Uzbekistan and happened to see some documents related to cases of torture. I wanted to tell about this to the C4 news. I contacted them and asked for a private meeting. Yet, they flew away from me as cats run from dogs. Why? There is only one explanation. Karimov’s regime is very important to the British and American politicians because of Afganistan. Although there is no British or American base, the Germans are still keeping their base in Termez, which is vital in Afgan operation. In other words Karimov is “their (the West’s) son of a bitch”. At least for the moment. Therefore, some journalists wouldn’t want to upset their masters. Another example. Recently the C4 broadcasted a program called “Bankrolling Mugabe” in which some western born businessmen were criticised for cooperation with Mugabe. I wonder if they (C4) know that gold, oil, cotton, tea production and jewellery businesses in Uzbekistan are concentrated in the hands of daughters of Mr Karimov. These industries are corrupt and deal with money laundering thru the offshore banks in the West. Some western businessmen, including from Britain up to some members of Royal family, may heavily be involved in these businesses. Up to 75% of children in Uzbekistan struggle from lack of nutritional food, proper education and medical care. The country is locked absolutely to the outside world. Yet, there is critism all over the British media to the adress of Iranian regime which at least had some form of free elections, than to Uzbekistan, which had no free elections at all since 1991! Hypocrisy, nothing else!
We should bound him up in a sack, throw him outside the doors of the Jeremy Kyle show, with a pamphlet “Waterboarding for Dummies”, and see what comes of it.
Strategist – to answer your question:
The speaker was actually the con Daniel Hannan, who stated that he was “one of the people who stuck up for Craig Murray in Uzbekistan at the time”, saying the country had a horrible regime. On the same panel, the Lib Dem Dr. Evan Harris led the denouncement of the government’s position.
Of course Scarlett is lying since he must know better, but so are former Prime Minister Blair and half the Cabinet. As my own situation demonstrates, MI5, MI6 not only condones torture but actively practices it in Britain. They use a process called Zerzetsen that was developed by the Stasi to persecute dissidents. My case is far from the only example. Its URL is:
http://zerzetzen.wikispaces.com
The torture is not the old fashioned medieval style that leaves marks, but a more modern Orwellian 1984 type of torture that is sometimes called Zerzetsen since it was developed by the former GDR secret police “the Stasi” to persecute dissidents. MI5 is actively using zerzetsen today to persecute decent citizens on behalf of its friends in the high establishment. Rule of law in England – what’s that?
What is interesting is the absence of the human rights industry. Lions when dealing with Pinochet types thousands of miles away, they are scared to assist my case and are wimps when it comes to torture at home. It is almost as if they are set up to justify their existence by finding a few problems abroad while making very sure that they never touch anything close to the establishment at home.
Have problems understanding that MI5, MI6 are the establishment’s very own Stasi.? Read my wiki. Note that multiple witnesses corroborate much of what I have said, and that there is written evidence that a Cabinet Minister participated in the government cover-up conspiracy
Roderick Russell – #207, 1733 – 27 Ave. SW, Calgary AB T2T 1G9 Canada – (403) 229. 0864
Glenn – thanks
I do believe whatever Scarlet says!
This paragon of virtue has spoken the truth ever since he was two years old, and he has never, ever, ever, hope he drops fecking dead, ever, lied!!!!
Of course I also believe in:
Tooth fairies,
Santa Clause,
Sandman
Pixies, fairies, and a whole plethora of hob goblins, (in case one can never be sure enough though)
More importantly I also do believe in democracy, and Freedom, and never running away like the surrender monkeys whom did not want to invade Iraq, and kill all those rag heads, and rape all those rag heads mothers and sisters, and torture them there rag heads cuaz they damn hate our Freedoms, and our way of life.
However, as anyone sane can discern; at this juncture of history; now we are made to take the words of a mass murdering bastard as gospel truth.
The same mass murdering bastard whose help, and aid to the grinning neo labor elf, made happen the Iraq war , now this mass murderer by joint enterprise is put on the box to tell us the “truth” in matters of torture, what the next communicate out of the auntie will be?
Already there is storm of VAT on food because as well know we need food security, and the best way to secure anything is to let its price hit the roof. Then there is the notion of Cameras in people’s houses, because the Cameras in the street just do not catch the bastards at it so royal fashion. Also there is the Swine flu that is getting weaker by the minute and the vaccine that will kill instead story.
Indeed, Craig, one would have thought that by now you would recognize you were ending up in the same boat as Orwell : once a trusted apparatchik, now a person of menace to liars and a political hot potato.
Unhappily, things have progressed apace since his day. Still, the AlterNet article on him was interesting. Wikipedia has notes on his harassment by persons from Official Secrets. I even had a puzzling spate of notes from and to a detainee of that band some years past.
The heart sinks when one realises with absolute clarity that the entire political class (and one must include the mainstream media in this) are in chains.
Not a truth-teller amongst them.
Anywhere.
The media and parliament are not comprised of some kind of human sub-species. They are ordinary people, are,’t they?….so how can this happen.
The only possible answer, it seems to me, is degenerate nature of the powerful and the fact that the pyramidal power-structure that exists in every institution enables the very worst kind of people to enforce their will on everyone below them.
Only individuals whose ambition exceeds their moral integrity are allowed to rise to positions of authority with organisations.
Many participants in the system know they are participating in lies and worse kinds of wickedness. Most simply comply with orders.
……maybe it has always been thus….but where are the whistleblowers in the media and within the Civil Service? Where are the parliamentarians prepared to stand up in the House of Commons, speak the truth and condemn the indefensible.
How has it come to this? Why is there such a sense of helplessness abroad? (this sense applies to citizenry in general regarding all matters, great and small)
Maybe it is the belief or knowledge even that should an individual sacrifice him or herself for truth, their sacrifice will not even make the papers. Their masters have myriad ways of covering up, confusing, dissipating, denying.
Everyone on this forum (at least)knows this.
However the public at large are increasingly aware that there is something rotten in the state of Denmark and we must hope that when significant change comes it will trash and transform vested interests in ways previously unseen.
From the BBC article
“We can’t give a guarantee, and no government on earth can give a guarantee that somebody who’s picked up and held in another country hasn’t had their… human rights abused in some way.”
Dr Kim Howells, Labour chairman of the intelligence and security committee.
This is how they let themselves off the hook, they don’t look, so they don’t see.
Ed Balls’ proposal to install 24-hour round the clock surveillance cameras in the homes of ‘problem families’ with unruly children is the most appalling invasion of civil liberties perpetrated by this appalling government. It could only occur to people with the totalitarian mindset of fascism or communism. My parent’s generation who won World War Two would be utterly incredulous.
Even more appalling is the support given to the scheme by Tory spokesman Chris Grayling, who described it as “too little too late”. I wonder what Chloe Smith (who has promised not to let us down) has to say?
MI6 are specialists in propaganda. They ran ‘Operation Mass Appeal’ to help shape public opinion about Iraq and the threat posed by WMD, spreading their propaganda through ‘editors and writers who work with us from time to time’. (Scott Ritter, ‘Iraq Confidential’ and Nick Davies, ‘Flat Earth News’)
In this post 9/11 world, MI6 are nothing but a propaganda agency, for the enemies of the state are their employers.
Agreed Anticant, this invasion of privacy and two fingers to the European human rights act, spoken of with a smile from Ed ball is the Stasi come alive.
Were we are using technology the Stasi used neighbours, something to come in MI5/6 policy of ‘zersetzen’ which means ‘corroding, undermining, decomposing’, another version of the divide and conquer theory.
Playing against such policies are, not talking about stuff on the phone, not to take one’s phone to meetings of importance, not to talk about stuff online, etc. meeting in persons with persons one knows and trusts is now a necessity, because this policy is designed to filter out important information and harrass people with rigmarole and confusion until they had enough.
Anyone’s computer can be hacked in, I had an email send to me yesterday, from a trusted family member who is part of the Copenahgen effort, I opened it in expectation of some really interesting stuff and my computer went down, switched off, I had been bamboozeled. I done a full check caught a trojan system virus and hope to have cured the problem,unless the virus has a sleeper phase, but thats a way to get to us, silently without us knowing.
beware folks, there’s only a few of us and we can’t be out of action with fickle journalists about.
MI6 is in big trouble if, even as its head publicly denies complicity in torture, it is still participating in interrogations in repressive states, receiving intelligence originating from torture, sending agents to pat the providers on the head and so creating a market for it. Perhaps Craig can confirm whether this is indeed the case.
haley jr
yep – Frank Gardner and Dominic Lawson prominent among them.
Everyone now knows these type of scum are lying throught their teeth.
The sooner we get rid of these lying,murdering,torturing thugs the better for all of us.
They are beneath contempt.
Karma’ll get the likes of Scarlett soon enough though,that’s for sure.
Bastards.
Journalists nowadays are only used by politicians to help promote spin and other issues that ‘help’ the public understand their ongoing ‘role’. The public are apparently too stupid to be spoken to direct it seems.
I would just like to repeat this comment written by somebody else above as it’s a question I continually ask myself
“but where are the whistleblowers in the media and within the Civil Service? Where are the parliamentarians prepared to stand up in the House of Commons, speak the truth and condemn the indefensible.”
I would also add – Where is the Human Rights industry? Roderick Russell
7th August 2009
Reprieve writes to Kim Howells, chair of the ISC, “alerting them to the fact that they were seriously misled by their own Service about crimes committed under their watch.
“Last week, British judges revealed that the British Secret Services fed questions to the CIA in the full knowledge that the Agency was systematically using torture in interrogations; a clear violation of international law.”
Reprieve’s letter goes on to detail various instances of apparent perjury and misinformation in the Binyam Mohamed case.
http://www.reprieve.org.uk/2009_08_07ISCletter
10th August 2009
Kim Howells goes on record – this report from the Telegraph –
“Kim Howells, Labour chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee which scrutinises the secret services, said the issue of UK complicity in torture had been ‘clarified as far as it can be on the evidence that we have’.
“I can tell you that we’ve found no evidence that there has been collusion between the intelligence services, any Government department and governments that torture their individuals,” Mr Howells told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme.
“My committee has been looking at this for a very long time now and we have never been denied evidence from any of the agencies, nor the Cabinet Office, nor any official in any Government department.”
_”Shouldn’t we torture, if it makes us safe?”_
_Salahuddin Amin_ went to the Pakistan police voluntarily on/around 2/3 April 2004. The ‘Operaion Crevice’ arrests had just occurred a few days earlier in the UK.
Salahuddin Amin was detained & subject to torture in Pakistan (& reportedly visited by the UK security services 11 times) over a period of 10 months.
Salahuddin Amin was then released without charge by the Pakistani Authorities & put on a plane to London , where he was arrested upon arrival at Heathrow on February 8th 2005.
So did the torture that Salahuddin Amin was subjected to (with the questions thought up by M15?) not reveal the names of Mohammed Siddique Khan and/or Shezad Tanweer and/or Kazi Rahman, who were all involved with visiting Pakistan alongside the ‘Operation Crevice’ ‘players’.
It would seem that the torture was used to obtain ‘evidence’ to secure the convictions of the ‘Operation Crevice’ players (finally in May 2007), but that the events of July 7th 2005, who we are told featured the ‘players’ Mohammed Siddique Khan and/or Shezad Tanweer, were not investigated/stopped.
Operation Crevice is linked in ways that the security services do not wish the public to know about, to the events of July 7th 2005.
Torture helped to secure the Crevice convictions, in the interests of ‘National Security’.
I believe that these are miscarriages of Justice in the making.
http://tinyurl.com/4myb37
“Israeli Medical Association Severs Ties with Physicians for Human Rights (PHR) Over Torture Allegations”…
http://uruknet.com/?p=m56838&hd=&size=1&l=e