Jonathan Powell
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Just drifted to be to check if Craig Murray’s comments section had reverted into its usual slanging match about 9/11 conspiracies. Oh look. It has. Forgive me for jumping in but a quick scan of the thread begs to questions:
@Larry: To as a question at a bit of tangent, what have you got against Scott Ritter? I don’t think he’s said anything much about the events of 9/11 has he? I mean he wouldn’t be on that list. Am I mistaken or are you thinking of someone else?
@Eddie: I seem to remember having a civilised to-and-fro with you last year, or maybe the year before, in which you mentioned you were a member of the Labour party. I think I weighed in somewhere with something like “Labour is dead, it deserves to be dead, it needs to die so it can be reborn as a decent party”. Which I think you disagreed with, and thus it emerged in our banter. Is this right? And are you still in the party? It’s a useful context for many of your remarks.
Clark, you’re right, plenty of people have lost relatives under such circumstances & not responded with the vitriol. I mean, unless Larry’s a 23 year old dj, which would kind of explain the swearing & stuff (in a way, I know plenty of other 23 years olds who wouldn’t) Otherwise, I was happy to read his questions sometimes. I hate thinking I know what I know, unless those facts have been painfully aquired.
or happily acquired. sorry, late, and skype chats coming in from everywhere. ignore me, am not sure adding anything useful.
These Powell brothers are just like the Cecil family. Servants of power.
They don’t much care what power wants to do. Their only interest is to be there serving it.
What a lot of people don’t know is that Machiavelli’s “The Prince”, was just a job application.
How else is a poor but well educated middle class boy to get on in the world?
Technicolour,
your posts are interesting, varied and polite, so I have no reason to ignore you. I’m pretty sure that Larry found this blog when Angrysoba added a Craig Murray page at Screwloosechange.
Clark,
Well that is quite interesting. He seems to think that I am obsessed with the subject, but I reached the point of terminal boredom with it years ago. Although he has, I have never attended a meeting that deals with the subject and so far as I recall I have only ever met one person promoting the issue which was at a music festival where absolutely no one seemed to show the slightest interest. I have seen the effects of anti-trolls being incredibly destructive. Its like they repeatedly turn up at the same police station to proclaim that their dead father is not a serial killer. The police eventually get so annoyed that they call in a psychiatrist and get them sectioned for wasting police time.
Tony
“What a lot of people don’t know is that Machiavelli’s “The Prince”, was just a job application.”
Fascinating thought.
“What a lot of people don’t know is that Machiavelli’s “The Prince”, was just a job application.” Fascinating thought.
I was suprised when I read it. I was expecting it to be, you know, Machiavellian, but so much of it just seemed to read like obvious commonsense, compared with what we hear from his modern counterparts.
Well, yes, but it’s ironic that this historical book about seeking and using power only exists because some Italian politico sought employment from the ruling class (he can’t seriously have written it for any other reason, can he, other than to impress?. The mechanism and servility of power explicitly exposing itself without the slightest self-consciousness. Doesn’t happen often in history.
Tony (@9:47 PM) : Interesting point. I’m barely interested in “9/11” any more until someone brings it up. Was very in interested in it at one point, but what do you do? Once you feel you know the Official Story is a bunch of lies, what do you do with that fact, unless you want to devote your life to it? I’ve discussed it at some length with mates, some who see it as an inside job, others who do not. But we’re still mates, and it hasn’t come up for years, frankly.
Perhaps what Amerikans can’t get it that it’s not heresy to think your government capable of Really Bad Things. The British know the sort of stuff that heads of state and “security services” types might like to do, and nothing would really surprise that – same with pretty much anyone else in the world apart from Americans. But in the US they have this terrible fear that if anyone – even more a minute – loses the faith, the entire system will fall apart. That’s why it’s so important to be a fanatical flag-waver, and to make sure everyone else is too.
Glenn, I realize now that it’s a religion for you. Talking you out of your creepy theory would be more difficult than convincing a Sunni Muslim to become a Shiite.
Larry,
You asked:-
“Courtenay, how’d that work out in Darfur?”
Thanks for the question.
My understanding ( subject to correction) is that Sudan is the largest country in Africa and is located next to the Red Sea, with a size equivalent to the entire Western Europe and with a population of merely 35 million. Darfur, to which you refer Larry, is at the Western end of Sudan and is rich in oil reserves. This background might best assist in placing Darfur in the context, about which you inquired.
The similarity between Iraq and Sudan, so far as oil is concerned, is that the Sudanese government, as with Saddam Hussein’s reign in Iraq, at a certain juncture, sought to steer clear of Washington’s domination of its policies over its oil. Saddam, as you are aware, is/ was a useful tool of
Washington vis-a-vis conflagrations with Iran; however, the Bush/Saddam alliance did see a falling out and once UN sanctions were going to be lifted, Saddam clearly signaled that he was going in a direction, not to Washington’s approval. Sudan’s difficulty is its independence and close association with China in developing its oil reserves ( i.e. not in accordance with Washington’s agenda).
With the foregoing in mind, your question, no doubt goes to the questions and issues surrounding the allegations of genocide. Not an apologist for any “genocide”. As with the Iran/Iraq war, the US has played a role in Sudan for over two decades and supported a separatist movement in the south of Sudan. Once a peace agreement was negotiated, the US shifted its attention to Darfur in western Sudan. The US assisted in the training of the JEM Darfuri rebels. The US media has projected its assessment as the Jan Jawid militias committing genocide. This is a somewhat simplistic projection given the fact of an ethnically diverse population in Sudan, with all speaking Arabic. The online news journal the Black Commentator made this observation:-
“All parties involved in the Darfur conflict?”whether they are referred to as ‘Arab’ or as ‘African,’ are equally indigenous and equally Black. All are Muslim and all are local.”
Black Commentator ?” 27th October, 2004.
Much of the fighting seems to be intertribal.
The parallel with Iraq is that the US is seeking in Sudan, by any means necessary, to overthrow an Islamist government and change the trajectory from the Chinese developing the oil reserves to a neo-Iraq superimposition. The negative press and the projection of “genocide” can’t be assessed in isolation from the global politics at play. The political right in the US plays a very useful role in the process and this would require a separate post fully to explain the role played by the American right and evangelists.
What I said about the UN Charter and the violations thereunder by the war of aggression waged by the US – indubitably stands. If I am incorrect about what continues to “fuel” ( pun intended)conflict in Darfur, then I am willing and pleased to have your analysis. I have shared mine. Trust I have adumbrated how it works out in Darfur ?” hegemony, a contest for oil, proxy wars, secret funding, and all the usual processes in play.
Kind regards.
Courtenay Barnett ( http://www.globaljusticeonline.com)
Courtenay: Interesting, thank you. I must say, this forum is turning into “Intelligent answers to stupid, belligerent questions” – and we must thank our correspondent old Larry for providing a vital role in this 🙂
So, Courtenay, then your source there would be http://www.globalresearch.ca, right?
Courtenay,
So interesting how you pathetically attempt to distort history. For instance, you forgot to mention that Saddam Hussein annexed Kuwait.
As to Darfur, maybe you need to tell Mukesh Kapila that what he saw was just a product of U.S. media.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukesh_Kapila
Come to think of of it, I suppose the world media should know that they belong to the U.S. media.
Courtenay, you state that “The US assisted in the training of the JEM Darfuri rebels.”
Can you substantiate this? Was Agent Tim Osman involved?
Glenn, you write:
“Perhaps what Amerikans can’t get it that it’s not heresy to think your government capable of Really Bad Things. The British know the sort of stuff that heads of state and “security services” types might like to do, and nothing would really surprise that – same with pretty much anyone else in the world apart from Americans. But in the US they have this terrible fear that if anyone – even more a minute – loses the faith, the entire system will fall apart. That’s why it’s so important to be a fanatical flag-waver, and to make sure everyone else is too.”
So – do you mean that a greater percentage of Brits believe 911 was an inside job, compared to Americans? I don’t think that’s the case. I can name all sorts of reasonable Brits from all political persuasions who think that only nutcases believe that the Towers were pre-planted with explosives.
I think you’re living in an even stranger fantasy world if you think that you’re not looked upon as a fringe thinker (a la David Icke).
“I think you’re living in an even stranger fantasy world if you think that you’re not looked upon as a fringe thinker (a la David Icke).”
A “Patrick from Cincinnati”, now ? Same tone of voice ?
Hey, Larry From St. Louis, is someone trying to make you look like an automatic operation ?
Richard,
“Same tone of voice” you ask – Kinder but not quite, unlike the hyperbole and and intransigence of Larry, Patrick has given us an insight into American patriotism when he said, “in the US they have this terrible fear that if anyone – even more a minute – loses the faith, the entire system will fall apart.
That’s why it’s so important to be a fanatical flag-waver, and to make sure everyone else is too.”
President Obama warned us, “not to challenge the official 9/11 story” – Cairo June 4th 2009 – which echoed the UN speech from President Bush. Obama went on to say this, “But let us be clear (his fav starter): Al Qaeda killed nearly 3,000 people on that day. The victims were innocent men, women and children from America and many other nations who had done nothing to harm anybody. And yet al Qaeda chose to ruthlessly murder these people, claimed credit for the attack and even now states their determination to kill on a massive scale. They have affiliates in many countries and are trying to expand their reach. These are not opinions to be debated; these are facts to be dealt with,”
Bush went on to say this:
“We must speak the truth about terror. Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th, malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists themselves, away from the guilty. To inflame ethnic hatred is to advance the cause of terror.”
Patrick’s statement nudged me into presenting myself with a hypothetical question, ‘would knowing that 7/7 was a false-flag operation affect my own loyalty to Britain and the Crown – and would democracy (the system) collapse if the British public knew also from clear irrefutable evidence?’
I think not – simple because I believe we British are too resilient – kinder bullet-proof. Lets face it the expenses scandal has enraged us to the point our politicians are not trusted – certainly not to the degree before the rot was exposed. Has our system collapsed? No. We have given them a second chance.
Bridget and Ant have a respectable site (www.julyseventh.co.uk) presenting their research. Their site, I believe, has not spawned a myriad of debunking and debunking the debunked plethora to the extent of 9/11 (Casual Googling reveals the snakes nest).
Having worked (and played) in America revealed to me this patriotism and flag waving, this together with the circular post and counter-posts in WebCameron, before it’s demise, influence my decision not to pursue the facts of 9/11 in public. I will however in private continue to observe and record the work of scientists and others in their forensic analysis of what remains as clear evidence in the collapse of steel and concrete buildings within the demolished World Trade Centre.
Ehem, “Patrick from Cincinnati” – No, that’s not what I meant. I meant what I actually wrote.
“”Same tone of voice” you ask – Kinder but not quite, unlike the hyperbole and and intransigence of Larry, Patrick has given us an insight into American patriotism when he said, “in the US they have this terrible fear that if anyone – even more a minute – loses the faith, the entire system will fall apart.”
He was quoting Glenn, you silly. You don’t have good reading skills, do you? Now feel free to paste a long boring article that is not your own.
Mark –
I must admit that I didn’t actually read the entire post, but nonetheless I appreciate you posting some Siegfried Sassoon. This simplicity of his words breaks my heart every time.
If 7/7 was a false flag operation, the U.K. must be a terrible place to live.
Larry,
Whether Patrick was quoting or not is irrelevant, I understand your frantic attempts to undermine posts that crash into your mind-set that sits behind compound barriers. Using ‘if’ to quantify a statement is a waste of key-strokes.
Bernard Chazelle is a friend and many Americans express delight at his use of English which is never boring, delightful reading, always informative and never cherry picks to produce belligerent remarks – that’s too easy.
So in your own language – take your ball and go play somewhere else where your skills will be more effective.
“Patrick has given us an insight into American patriotism when he said, “in the US they have this terrible fear that if anyone – even more a minute – loses the faith, the entire system will fall apart.”
do you understand that he was quoting someone else
he was quoting someone else to knock it down
are you smart enough to figure that one out
Larry,
The UK has its problems, but actually is quite a pleasant place to live. Its probably one of the most tolerant and least racist countries in the World.
With regards to the London Bombings, there is very little hard information to analyse, although there are several known issues that make the official explanation extremely difficult to believe. I have come to no firm conclusions with regards to who was responsible for it or what exactly happenned. This is totally different to 9/11, as there is a mountain of evidence to analyse.
However, what is clear, is that the vast majority of the British Public sufferred no great trauma or fear as a result of 7/7 and in the main just carried on as usual. We have a long history of being attacked, and people dropping bombs on us, and of terrorist attacks. The IRA regularly blew up bits of London and other parts of the UK for most of the 20 years or so before the US started their Global War on Terror.
The majority of Americans on the other hand, were and still are completely terrorised, to the extent that over 50% of them are actually in favour of torturing those blamed for terrorising them.
My son visited America when he was 12, before 9/11 with his local scout group. He was completely amazed at the cultural difference. Boy scouts in England play silly games, and generally have lots of fun.
His impression of Boy Scouts in America in the Year 2000, was that they were completely obsessed with shooting ( he was taught to fire virtually every weapon from a bow and arrow – up to machine gun ), and that in historical terms with regards to attitude, it was the equivalent of an English schoolboy visiting the Hitler Youth in 1938. He also thought the weather was absolutely crap, and that the vast majority of Americans were incredibly fat. Its obviously got a lot worse since then.
Tony
Has anyone read Mark Curtis: Web of Deceit?
It’s amazing that you folks seem to think that 7/7 might have been an inside job, but nonetheless you’re living in such a wonderful country!
There is no limit to British exceptionalism!
“His impression of Boy Scouts in America in the Year 2000, was that they were completely obsessed with shooting ( he was taught to fire virtually every weapon from a bow and arrow – up to machine gun ), and that in historical terms with regards to attitude, it was the equivalent of an English schoolboy visiting the Hitler Youth in 1938.”
I have a nephew in Minnesota and a nephew in Illinois. They’re both in the Boy Scouts. I was in the Boy Scouts. They have not experienced, nor did I experience, the militarism that you’re talking about. They also have the silly games. But merit badges seem to be the focus.
If your son believes that he was taught how to fire a machine gun in the Boy Scouts, he’s retarded. Maybe he was on drugs. Maybe you’re on drugs. In any event, it’s not the case that he learned how to fire a machine gun in the Boy Scouts.
Because, as I was saying before the interruption, it draws the very clear line between the actions of successive UK governments and the behaviour and aspirations of the UK people.