Blair just said “You would be hard pressed to find anyone who in September 2002 doubted that Saddam had WMD”.
It wouldn’t have been that hard. If he had asked members of the Near East and North Africa Department of the FCO, the Middle East experts in the FCO’s Research Analysts, or in the Defence Intelligence Service, he would have found absolutely no shortage of people who doubted it, whatever position No 10 was forcing on their institutions.
One of the many failures of this Inquiry has been a failure to ask individual witnesses before it whether they personally had believed in the existence of any significant Iraqi WMD programme. I know for certain that would have drawn some extremely enlightening answers from among the FCO and probably MOD participants.
Sir Martin Gilbert allowed Blair to conflate Iran, Iraq, Al-Qaida, WMD and terrorism in a completely unjustified way. When Straw tried exactly the same trick, Rod Lyne did not allow him to get away with it.
A further stark contrast with Straw is that both Blair and Straw were asked about the failure of the UK to secure movement in the Middle East peace process by using our role in Iraq to influence the USA. A major, detailed and fascinating part of Straw’s answer was that Israel’s – and specifically Netanyahu’s – political influence in the USA had prevented progress.
By contrast, Blair did not even mention Israel in response to the questions on the failure to achieve progress in the Middle East. He solely blamed the Palestinian Intafada. He has been anxious to widen the discussion beyond Iraq at every opportunity, and frequently referred to destabilising factors in the Middle East, and again and again pointed to a growing threat from Iran and Iranian sponsorship of terrorism, and to Palestinian terrorism (including Saddam Hussein’s past sponsorship of it).
He has made not one single comment about Israel’s behaviour as a contributing factor in Middle East instability. Given Blair’s official position as Middle East envoy, this lack of any bare pretence at impartiality is most revealing.
glenn
What you said was irrelevant to the reply I gave. I was making the point that religion wasn’t the cause of those, the biggest wars of our time. Hitler may have been Christian, if so he was the same religion of the British and Americans he fought.
Atheism may or may not be the reason for the crimes of communists, but religion certainly wasn’t.
That was my point, it was a reply to someone who hinted that religion is the cause of all wars. The person didn’t leave a name, but you can scrole up and read the post.
Bollocks I have loads of work to do, And I have done nothing because I have been too busy talking to you lot.
Bye, I have a life. I haven’t got time for this stuff.
@mark
Meryl has a more recent post (25/1) on Amerithrax. She is quoting an article from the Wall Street Journal by Ed Epstein (who I have a bad feeling about, but check his website and decide for yourself).
“Livermore scientists had tried 56 times to replicate the high silicon content without any success. Even though they added increasingly high amounts of silicon to the media, they never even came close to the 1.4% in the attack anthrax. Most results were an order of magnitude lower, with some as low as .001%. […] the FBI investigation is still open?”and, unless it can refute the Livermore findings on the silicon, it is back to square one.”
In this context ‘back to square one’ means Ivins didn’t do it.
tinyurl.com/epstein
@others
Religion? I’m with Gibbon:
“”The various modes of worship, which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people, as equally true; by the philosopher, as equally false; and by the magistrate, as equally useful.”
Hello again arsalan… atheism was not the reason for the crimes of communists, unless you know of some evidence to the contrary? What I object to is statements like this of yours:
—
“Some people worship God, and it is this belief which limits their crimes.
Others believe in No God, and nothing limits their crimes, but the means they have to commit them.”
—
Now tell me you aren’t suggesting that atheists have nothing to limit their crimes but lack of time and opportunity. Actually, there is a great deal limiting my own crimes – and that is my own personal sense of decency, morality and honesty. I don’t need the threat of some sky-spook to keep my nose clean. It amazes me that so many religious nutters apparently do.
There’s a sky-spook who, when not tending to every last atom in the universe, is fascinated by the thoughts and doings of every last being on Earth. He’s stopping the devoted from going too far, “limiting their crimes”, keeping people in check you reckon. Well He’s not doing a very good job. Just look at the state of the world for proof of that!
Your argument is turned completely on its head by a moment’s review of the hideous crimes committed in the name of religion.
*
Oh, you’ve taken your ball and gone home. You’ve got a life eh? It always gives me a chuckle when some poster criticises another for having the time to post – thanks!
*
Craig – perhaps you could make a thread concerning the validity of religions, give us your conclusion and then we could all weigh in on the subject. That should settle the matter for once and for all.
“It is also sweet to have a female perspective here ..”
–Mark Golding
I’m curious how many women you think are commenting here, Mark?
“perhaps you could make a thread concerning the validity of religions”
–glenn
Yikes, that’d be a hot and heavy thread. But this place is not a dinner party, and politics has been well-done, so why not do the other.
Suhayl
The least of my dislike of Sufism is grave worship. The pleasure of living in the West with its all freedom and complexity is horribly tarnished by the continuation of violent imperialism by our leaders.
Islam has a complex standard of morality which Sufism brushes under the carpet. Muslims in the West are either totally absorbed in worldly things and unwillingly to protest against the repetition in the 21st century of what their forbears endured from the UK or they genuinely do not recognise morality as an Islamic issue.
In my opinion this betrayal of the current victims of Zionist machination and Imperial vanity, is perceived by Muslims as a strength, a form of holy obstinacy. I from village I don’t know I just poor man. At what stage does moral responsibilty kick in – half a million, one million, three houses, one hundred houses? They might just be taken at their word, so that the unenlightened people of the West move on to find beauty and meaning in Kabala and the Obama New World Order.
I don’t want to live in a straightjacket society. You are an electrician and your knowledge does not exceed that. You must do this Islamic action and your knowledge does not exceed that. My fellow Muslims are all fully engaged with all the complex issues of life and they understand fully the complex rules of this society as well.
Blair playing dumb and Muslims playing dumb amounts to much the same thing in my book. Viz the quest for power. Forgive me if my analysis is faulty or my computer jammed from overload. I’m pissed off witheveryone playing politics while torture, illegal invasion, rape,pillage and the rest go on under our noses in a world which is now an open book. Playing dumb seems to me a strategy that serves the self. I didn’t think selfishness was the quality of the prophet,peace be upon him, or his followers, but it is certainly the quality which Islam in this country has chosen to project.
Glen I repeat look at the last hundred years, and count the deaths.
The Japanese didn’t do what they did in China because of Buddhism or Shintoism. They did it because they divorced their actions form their belief in a creator. And the same thing goes for what the Americans did in Japan. Secularism is the cause of all, or nearly all modern wars.
You state that your decency and morality prevent you from crimes. Atheist who don’t share your decency and morality have nothing to prevent them.
Your arguments about the crimes of secular leaders who may have a religion in their personal life but do not allow it to govern their judgment when ruling is irrelevant because such people do not let what God interfere with what they do. They are the willfully disobedient, people like Blair and Bush.
My argument applies when people believe in God and obey God. When people believe in God and disobey God, they behave no differently to Atheists.
And I can’t really say how you would behave if you had the means, the armies of Blair and Bush. Better then them? Worst then them? only you can tell?
I am really too busy for this. Maybe you can ask another one of the God believers to play with you.
If you want to know why Muslims believe in God, walk in to a Mosque and ask someone. I really can’t be bothered.
So go and cry to Mummy because the boy with the ball doesn’t want to play with you.
I was somewhat tongue in cheek, in suggesting a thread on religions would settle the matter… actually, a solid course in rationalism, logic and an understanding of the power of memes would go much further. Knowing a bit about science and comparative religions would help too. Here’s a starter, though, in case anyone hasn’t seen it yet. You can watch it free here:
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
Arsalan: what you present here (which is the thrust of you point) is a classic example of the No True Scotsman fallacy. Thus
—quote
“My argument applies when people believe in God and obey God. When people believe in God and disobey God, they behave no differently to Atheists.”
—end quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
In a nutshell, no religious person would behave badly. But what about Father Pete O’File? He’s been molesting choir-boys for years! Ah yes, the reply comes. But no _true_ religious person would do such a thing.
Now are you seriously telling me/us that you do not recognise your argument to be a perfect example of a well known logical fallacy?
I know why Muslims believe in God – same reason as any other religionist. Because they’ve been brought up to believe all that superstitious, primitive, fear-driven hogwash and can’t think for themselves.
“I am really too busy for this. Maybe you can ask another one of the God believers to play with you.”
I know the feeling. There’s all sorts of stuff here that I’d love to “play with”, but I’ve barely finished reading, let alone starting to write. I haven’t even got very far into that enquiry transcript yet (it’s not as bad as it looks. Lots of pages, sure, but not that many words on each).
The absolutism/tolerance thing, Mark on the risk of warmongering against Iran, the free-form nature of Islamic authority vs. Popes and the like … (is that a fair characterisation ? I don’t know enough.)
and especially anno’s comment on Luther &c – all the stuff around ideas like “Make the information available in an accessible language, teach people to read if necessary, and then they’ll be in a position to make up their own minds. *And* we are developing a belief system that says that this is A Good Thing”. Followed, of course, by a hundred-year war …
And more.
There’s a lot going on, and there are other bits of Life demanding attention too. And that’s without meaning anything against anybody who feels that this is the most important thing to do.
The existence of the 9/11 thread does seem to have made a huge difference to the subsequent ones.
Dreoilin,
I’ve no idea how many women are commenting here, I now know more than one 😉
I do however like ‘hot and heavy’ threads 🙂
Father Pete O’File joined his Job because he wanted to molest little boys. He didn’t molest little boys because the bible told him to.
He decided the molest in spite of claiming a belief in God not because of. That is unless you can find a verse in his Holy book that orders him to have sex with Boys.
That may explain why those that are born in to it believe in it. But in this country that argument doesn’t run so well, because here a large minority within the Muslim community were not brought up as Muslims.
And even those that were, are force feed atheism just like everyone else in schools.
So I can say the something about you to you. You are an atheist because you were force feed atheism in school the way all children in this country are.
Are Larry and Angry still talking to each other on that thread?
Let me go and check?
Bloody hell, they are still at it. So it worked. We can now talk about what we want in every other thread.
That is except for fish. Craig deletes every post I do about Fish.
arsalan:
“I am really too busy for this. Maybe you can ask another one of the God believers to play with you.”
That’s fine, just stop insulting atheists by suggesting they’re responsible for
the world’s horrors because of their godlessness, and I’ll stop using
reason and logic to point out that old religious chestnut is utter rubbish.
Had you refrained from glorifying religions while telling porkies about
atheists, I wouldn’t even be writing now pointing out religion itself is a
load of primitive, superstitious rubbish.
Take your ball and remember – if you can’t keep up with the big boys, don’t
try playing with them if you’re going to get upset at the result.
Let me see if he still deletes them?
http://www.blog.thesietch.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/giant-fish.jpg
Chips anyone?
Glenn, Didn’t I stay here and allow you to play? Even though I had a lot of work to do I stayed on and played with you?
And glenn, I didn’t go home to cry to Mummy when religion was attacked. I stayed here with you, even though it meant I didn’t get any work done today. If you want to talk about the God debate, go to someone and do it face to face. It is past five now, so I need to go home.
You can see it as taking the ball away from you if you like. But some of us have lives to get on with. So whether I want to play or not, I can’t do so now.
Because this is is covered with white source.
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/03_02/WhaleSharkWENN_468x336.jpg
Fish doesn’t reheat well.
Arsalan: “So I can say the something about you to you. You are an atheist
because you were force feed atheism in school the way all children in
this country are.”
Actually, far from force-feeding atheism, my school was _heavily_ given to Baptist Christian indoctrination, so I know the Christian Bible far better than virtually all Catholics, and you’d probably have to be some sort of lay preacher to out-Bible me. I went to Sunday School too, and was a good little born-again Christian until I started to really think for myself.
But don’t let facts get in the way of your talking-points.
You claim atheism is ‘force-fed’ in schools “to all children” twice in one post – do you have any evidence for this?
Gosh, Arsalan, you’re a lucky guy, all those women proposing to you! What’s your secret? Your cooking? I do take your points seriously, though, thanks for making them to me and for putting them so well. Have a good evening.
Arsalan, the only thing you said which made any sense was ” If you want to talk about the God debate, go to someone and do it face to face”.
Why should I want to do that? Religious nuts get very angry when their sky-spook is doubted. Is a “face-to-face” meeting supposed to provide proof? Will they get their almighty God to perform a miracle or something? They’re more likely to take huge insult when their baseless assertions about spooks, haints, spirits, magical thinking, mumbo-jumbo and sky-beings are not swallowed wholesale.
Talking about miracles, I’m always impressed on how God/Alah can raise the dead, cure the sick and so on. But what’s he got against amputees? Why won’t he as much as grow back a little finger for one of his faithful?
Here’s another one. Was God having a laugh, or weren’t these “Real” religious people, you reckon? :
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100125/157674817.html
Blair has told the Chilcot Inquiry that 9/11 is the key to everything in understanding why he invaded Iraq.
Reinvestigate 9/11 has made a submission to the inquiry that they examine this link.
Full details on the 9/11 thread – I admit I had a slight twinge mentioning it here, although the lateral link is valid.
January 30, 2010
Not a good sign…
http://tinyurl.com/yavtnd6
Was Blair getting us ready?.
Link not working above,full link…
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/31/world/middleeast/31missile.html?th&emc=th
This seems a completely appropriate use of Graffiti
David Cameron F-Off Back To Eton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KnzwW5ZnU4
Not that I am particularly opposed in principle to Private Education
Its just that on the evidence available (and my brother-in-law teaches at a private school – and has told me in detail about it)
They produce a bunch of complete blithering idiots like David Cameron, who are completely out of touch with the real world and are afraid to experience it.
Whilst I am on the subject of complete blithering idiots I watched a fascinating documentry made by an Israeli on the subject of anti-fascism or something close (don’t mention the war)
God, did I feel sorry for the thousands of Israeli teenagers being programmed with such nonsense as to think the World hates them. The World just wants the Israeli Government to behave as if they are not blood thirsty racist psychopaths like our British and American Governments are.
Defamation is on Channel 4 and can be seen on their internet 4od thing
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/defamation
And Obama has actually announced something sensible today
Perhaps this global warming nonsense, is really about deploying the new generation of nuclear power in case the planet gets considerably colder as is entirely possible.
Tony
George,
Indeed not, with Chilcot hotting up again, some military circles in high command are getting itchy feet. The window is closing for a strike on Iranian nuclear assets and other support sites including military establishments. I urge vigilance on any reports on deployment and if anyone George you will pick this up.
Mark
Not looking good is it. I did pick this up…
01 Feb 2010
“Europe “lost” Lockerbie observer’s trial reports”…
http://tinyurl.com/y8apfvn
Tony – here’s a video about some really nice Israelis, very tolerant Zionist Americans visiting there, and their articulating their opinions on their neighbours, Obama and so on:
http://www.loonwatch.com/tag/max-blumenthal/
Oddly enough, youtube removed it, even though it houses far worse on other subjects.
Actually, here is the original (also taken down by youtube). Watch this first:
http://current.com/items/90321273_feeling-the-hate-in-jeresulem-by-max-blumenthal.htm
I am fairly convinced that Iran has never been a serious target, except from the extreme right wing neocons – like Cheney – and the extreme right wing of the Israeli Government.
Sure the extreme Right within Israel want to instigate the destruction of Israel, but they are completely off their heads.
Read Webster Tarpley – or watch his video on the subject that he made even before Obama was “selected”
There actually is a difference between Bush/Cheney and Obama
Don’t believe everything you read in the Jerusalem Post and the Sunday Times
Its just a distraction from the real objectives which are far more dangerous
Of course you will think Webster Tarpley is a nutter, if you believe the official government conspiracy story which defies the laws of physics
If you anchor yourself to the laws of physics, then what he writes and says makes sense even though the results will be insane.
Its a mad world
His video is really good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MouUJNG8f2k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-KJCMWcoms
Tony
“You are an atheist because you were force feed atheism in school the way all children in this country are.”
When I was a schoolboy (in the UK in the ’60s), we were mostly wannabe atheists, as a result of being force-fed ‘religion’. There were legal obligations on schools to teach us ‘religion’ and hold some form of ‘worship’. The boys were mostly going “we don’t want to have to spend our time on this, we don’t care”, and the teachers “we know, but we can’t break the law”. (Both ‘religion’ and ‘worship’ were open to some very individual interpretations, depending the people involved).
Actually, I wouldn’t call myself an atheist, these days. I had to fill out a form a few months back that asked about my beliefs; I could be ‘atheist’, ‘agnostic’ or ‘religious’. I took great pleasure in describing myself as ‘religious’, the religion being ‘agnosticism’. My grounds for that were, that there’s no way I could prove that it’s right.
Must eat. Fishhhh …