Blair just said “You would be hard pressed to find anyone who in September 2002 doubted that Saddam had WMD”.
It wouldn’t have been that hard. If he had asked members of the Near East and North Africa Department of the FCO, the Middle East experts in the FCO’s Research Analysts, or in the Defence Intelligence Service, he would have found absolutely no shortage of people who doubted it, whatever position No 10 was forcing on their institutions.
One of the many failures of this Inquiry has been a failure to ask individual witnesses before it whether they personally had believed in the existence of any significant Iraqi WMD programme. I know for certain that would have drawn some extremely enlightening answers from among the FCO and probably MOD participants.
Sir Martin Gilbert allowed Blair to conflate Iran, Iraq, Al-Qaida, WMD and terrorism in a completely unjustified way. When Straw tried exactly the same trick, Rod Lyne did not allow him to get away with it.
A further stark contrast with Straw is that both Blair and Straw were asked about the failure of the UK to secure movement in the Middle East peace process by using our role in Iraq to influence the USA. A major, detailed and fascinating part of Straw’s answer was that Israel’s – and specifically Netanyahu’s – political influence in the USA had prevented progress.
By contrast, Blair did not even mention Israel in response to the questions on the failure to achieve progress in the Middle East. He solely blamed the Palestinian Intafada. He has been anxious to widen the discussion beyond Iraq at every opportunity, and frequently referred to destabilising factors in the Middle East, and again and again pointed to a growing threat from Iran and Iranian sponsorship of terrorism, and to Palestinian terrorism (including Saddam Hussein’s past sponsorship of it).
He has made not one single comment about Israel’s behaviour as a contributing factor in Middle East instability. Given Blair’s official position as Middle East envoy, this lack of any bare pretence at impartiality is most revealing.
Njegos,
arrestblair.org is an excellent idea. Yes, I shall suggest that Jack Straw is added, too.
Technicolour,
history, eh? It’s not something you can know, it’s a study. I just read Jared Diamond’s “Guns, Germs and Steel”, which is about the development of food production since the last ice-age, and which I thought was excellent. The epilogue is entitled “The Future of Human History as a Science”.
Yes, but Mark (Golding) if this meant that, say, Paul Flynn in Newport would go, I would be against. Mmm.
I don’t accept, you see, that we are governed by a ruling cabal which is in itself subject to an over riding authority (the PM). Perhaps I should. If you do, it makes sense to elect any person, of any stamp, as long as the leader to whom they owe allegiance is relatively decent.
At the same time, if a decent leader has only the support of thoroughly unscrupulous and self-interested people, how long will they remain decent?
Still, at the very least, people could be trying to contact their Lib Dem contender and finding out how they would vote/have voted on issues like the invasion; id cards; ‘anti-terrorism’ laws and so on. Rather than conclude that ‘none of them’ are worth it? Because parliament itself is under threat.
“but are still considered Jewish?”
It depends on who you ask.as Jewish they are not regarded as so by Israel. The funny thing is Atheists with Jewish maternal ancestry can go to Israel without conversion.
Ataturk, apparently, said the following: “I have no religion,”
I wasn’t really talking about his personal beliefs, more about his ancestry.
in the autobiography of Itamar Ben-Avi he quotes attaturk as saying:
“I’m a descendant of Sabbetai Zevi – not indeed a Jew any more, but an ardent admirer of this prophet of yours. My opinion is that every Jew in this country would do well to join his camp.”
” ‘I have at home a Hebrew Bible printed in Venice. It’s rather old, and I remember my father bringing me to a Karaite teacher who taught me to read it. I can still remember a few words of it, such as –‘ ”
And Ben-Avi continues:
“He paused for a moment, his eyes searching for something in space. Then he recalled:
” ‘Shema Yisra’el, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Ehad!’
” ‘That’s our most important prayer, Captain.’
” ‘And my secret prayer too, cher monsieur,’ he replied, refilling our glasses.”
“Karimov was apparently born in an orphanage; I can’t find any source for his religion.”
With Karimov like most children left at Orphanages had an unknown father. His Mother was of Donma heritage though, the reason we know this is he stated it himself to an Israeli ambassador. I don’t know the exact quote though. I think he said something like “I am Jewish too because my mother was Jewish”.
It doesn’t really mean he himself believes in Judaism, because that is what an uncle of mine says to Jews as an ice breaker when they meet for multi faith forums.
“Some Christians believe that Christ was rescued from the cross and escaped to Kashmir.”
This is the real reason for my reply.
I don’t know of any Christians who state that but do know of a cult that has broken away from Islam who state that. They are known as Qayanis but would prefer to be known as Ahmedis. They are universally declared as Non-Muslims by every sect and school of thought in Islam. No one believes that belief but themselves and the reason they adopted that belief is:
During the British raj in India Muslims and Hindus fought the British together. the founder of Qadyanism told the Muslims, they are no longer allowed to fight the occupation because Jihad by the sword has been replaced by Jihad by the pen, he said God told him so. The Quran states Mohummed pbh is the final Prophet so Muslims declared him a none Muslim. He stated that he isn’t a new one, instead he is the reincarnation of Jesus, even though it is Hindus and not Muslims who believe in reincarnation.
To be able to say this he had to say Jesus was dead, which would be difficult because the Quran states God saved Jesus, Muslims believe Jesus was raised up alive and Judas was made to look like Jesus and he was the one crucified.
So what Qadyanis say is Jesus was crucified, escaped from the cross alive and went to Kashmir, lived and died. And he stated the Grave of a well known Muslim saint was really the grave of Jesus. They are banned from visiting that grave just as they are banned from praying at any Muslim site because they are universally declared as heretics.
Tech: “Otherwise your distinction between Zionism and Judaism fails to include the people who do practice the Jewish faith, which involves loving-kindness, and who currently live in Israel. But you may feel they are of no account. ”
Unlike America where the Indians were killed so people from Europe can go and live there more than a hundred years ago(Indian killers died along time ago), with Israel it is happening now. The colonialists who are there now are the same people who did the killings and expulsions.
People are going there knowing, that others are being kicked out and killed for them to be able to do that.
But people can claim to be nice people as much as they like, but what they have done is not nice.
There is no Niceness in Zionism just as there is no niceness in Nazism. There is no such thing as Good Racism. And that is what Zionism is, Racism.
Yes there are a Few, very few Jews who are there who moved there before Israel was created, even fewer whose family moved there before Zionism was created, and if these people are not Zionists then yes it is possible they could be good people. True this may not apply to the people who are born there, or who were dragged there as kids by their parents and who reject what their parents did there by rejecting Zionism. But if anyone accepts that People from Europe are allowed to go the Asia, and massacre people, and expel people from there homes. Even if these massacres and explosions were the work of their parents and not their own, such a person is not and can never be a good person, no matter what they say about themselves.
The first time I came across the word was when I was reading the the world religion table in the encyclopedia Britannica. In the Muslim section it had Sunni, Shia and other with the corresponding percentage.
at the bottom of the Jewish section it had crypto Jew, which I remembered because I hadn’t heard it before.
But when it comes to immigrating to Israel they have to go through an Orthodox conversion ceremony because even though they regard themselves
sorry again. the bit at the bottom, which starts with “the first time” is meant to be at the top when I explain crpto Jews.
Sorry,
“at the very least secure a ‘hung’ Parliament.”
Wot, without so much as a fair trial ?
I’d like to know why nobody mentioned oil at the Iraq inquiry? It played quite a big part in the reason for invading, after all, didn’t it?
Suhayl Saadi
The Problem with Pakistan is it is a Horrible place.
It’s problems are nothing to do with foreign influences, from Saudi or anywhere else.
My wife is a Paki, and a couple of years after we got married I went there to see her family.
What I noticed was the complete absence of the rule of law.
Police officers were taking bribes openly. I know it happens everywhere, bot not like this. It was happening out in the street in the open in full view of everyone.
Another thing is people pissing in the street. People from the UK may think this is not unusual. But the thing you do not realise is Pakistan is full of Mosques.
Every Mosque has a washroom with toilets. instead of walking a few meters to a Mosque like I did when I wanted a piss, they did it on the street. There was a sign that read, please don’t piss on the street, instead use to public toilet. and there was a public toilet about 10 meters away, but people pissed on that sign.
And there was violence too. Not the sort you find here that happens because some one supports a different football team to yourself. But violence whose reasons I could not workout.
I saw a lot of violence there mostly as a result of insults.
So yes I believe Idiots and their antisemitism may have driven out Pakistan’s Jewish community. But No I don’t believe Pakistanis need Saudi money to behave like idiots, because they seem to be doing ok behaving like idiots for free.
Don’t know if anyone has seen this. Or if it’s worth attention.
“Professor to launch ‘Nuremberg’ war crimes prosecution against Blair”
[daily mail]
I don’t know this Professor Bill Bowring guy.
http://tinyurl.com/ybkqrza
PRECURSOR TO WAR WITH IRAN –
I seriously believe war with Iran is on the agenda at secret high ranking military talks. Again I believe Israel wants to strike before Russian S300 systems are fully deployed around Iranian nuclear sites and other sites.
The light is on amber!
http://tinyurl.com/iran-war-imminent
Arsalan, if you’re not talking about personal beliefs, but about ancestry, what hope do any of us have?
Interesting about Karimov. Why would he say that? When did he say that?
I take your uncle’s point, though. As Kinky Friedman has said: “each of us has within him a little bit of the Nazi and a little bit of the Jew”. Or words to that effect.
Apparently, it is true, among some Christians. They believe that Jesus was fed a potion on the cross to simulate death, and was then revived by herbs while in the tomb. This has always struck me as a cheerful version of the crucifiction, and therefore, perhaps, not unlikely to be disregarded.
The Muslim version is, after he was identified to the Romans by Judas, God raised Jesus up and transformed Judas to look like Jesus. Judas was Crucified.
Jesus will return to kill the AntiChrist.
After which he will live a normal life, marry, have children and die.
I think the Gospel of Barnabas and early Unitarian Christians who followed it share the Muslim belief.
@arselan: Wot a pathetic and despicable way to condemn an entire race! What about ppl who were born in Israel? Or is guilt genetic? What about the moderates and humanitarians who disagree with their govrmnt? The conscientious objectors? Israel was created as sanctuary to escape persecution from raving antisemites like you – of which there were far too many, esp. in the 30s & 40s.
If you popped up in Israel spouting that kind of cancerous bigotry, you’d deserve to get your ass kicked out of the country!
Talking about Personal Beliefs of people you do not know personally is very difficult.
But remember the Donma are a community,
Anno mentioned them using the word crypto Jew.
People din’t know what it meant so I explained.
I mentioned two famous people who were of that community. Come to think of it, may be just one?
I know Attaturk was Dunma, and that is well documented. With Karimov all we really have is his conversation with the Israeli ambassador. Even though there was a Dunma community in Uzbeckistan, most of whom who have now immigrated to Israel. That statement doesn’t really tell us if his Mum was Dunma or mainstream Jewish?
The man who said “turn the other cheek” and “never do violent harm to anyone, even in self-defence” is going to return to ‘kill’ the ‘anti-christ’?
Reminds me of that great quote: “sometimes I thank God I’m an atheist”.
Zohan read more than one of my posts before you say such things.
We are talking about Zionists not Jews.
You might be thick enough to think they mean the samething, but the English language isn’t!
Zionists are not Jews and Jews are not Zionists.
Zionists are just Racist Nazis.
Arsalan,
I find your comment a bit bizarre – you are describing a micro-cosmopolitan I have seen in many poor regions especially Africa, India and the ports near Singapore. Pakistan is helping us fight terrorism and her nuclear capability I believe is a caution right now, a comma to the planners of another pre-emptive war.
Mark Golding,
how stretched is the US military, in your estimate? And what are the relative strengths of the various countries they’re active in?
Technicolour,
I’m betting on a two election strategy by the Conservatives with Labour content to to hold onto power in a ‘hung Parliament. I think the stats point to that. I personally want to give Nick Clegg a bit of freedom by winning seats, if not then Libs are doomed. But I have my own agenda which I unselfishly or otherwise admit. I want to put the brakes on DC’s significant expenditure cuts for one, but more importantly I see a war on the horizon as you know and DC I believe is a budding Blair – sorry if that upsets people but that is my view.
If anyone wishes to explore in a positive manner, with an open mind:
Check out: http://www.pakistanifilmfest.com
Also, there is an exhibition on right now at the Saatchi Gallery in London of art from South Asia (incl. Pakistan):
http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/artists/rashid_rana.htm
There’s much more, of course, but anyone who wants to will find it, will see it. Those who don’t will remain willfully blind. That’s their loss.
I live in Glasgow’s West End, the university area, it’s a good area. Yet people – students and others – regularly use my street as a toilet when drunk – I’ve written to the council about it. Last year, a student was raped three streets away from I live and at night drug addicts regularly crowd into the 24 hour shops, sometimes, dripping 70% positive Hepatitis C positive blood onto the polite (Pakistani) shopkeepers. I do not exaggerate. But there are wonderful things about Glasgow, it’s a great, vibrant city, with super people, full of stories, erudition and history and has some wonderful museums and galleries. Look for the good, you’ll find it. Wherever in the world you go, look for the bad, you’ll find it. Free your mind. Peace.
Clark,
You are right of course America is stretched, the deficit is huge, and the war bucket has leaked out. America has control of Iraq and Afghanistan as effective launching pads for drones (Obama has given the green light for a massive expansion program). India has started manufacturing UAE’s as well.
http://afpakwar.com/blog/archives/2011
Spy drones are now common place, even the police have them! So I predict a drone war – networked drones that arrive on masse in waves, while Israel sneaks in behind with the MOP’s. Am I mad? Probably.
Mark Golding,
UAEs? MOPs? Sorry, my acronyms are rusty. Why does the US want Iran to stop making nuclear fuel? Why not concentrate on preventing weaponisation? The robotic warfare development is extremely worrying. This is where International Law is needed, and the UK are currently trashing it.
Yes, try to encourage a hung parliament, and a Tory majority would be a disaster – at least SOME labour MPs voted against the war.
Dreoilin,
Prof Bill Bowring, human rights lawer, practicing barrister, formerly University of Essex, now Birkbeck College, London, there’s a 2007 Times article about him being chucked out of Russia.
Suhayl Saadi,
yes, there is good in all people, most normal people want to get on with their lives. It’s a classic positive feedback loop; good conditions lead to good behaviour lead to better conditions… but it can run the other way, too.
Clark,
UAE should read UAV = unmanned Aerial vehicle.
MOP = massive ordinance projectile design to penetrate rock/concrete to a depth of between 200-300 feet and explode.
Iran and nuclear fuel – Israel is paranoid about Iran’s nuclear enrichment program, the process that can power reactors with low enriched uranium or with further enrichment, used in an atomic bomb similar to the one dropped on Hiroshima.
Although Iran has the knowledge to construct a crude bomb, she has no interest in developing one, despite claims of secret enrichment locations (under threat – seems obvious)
Iran wants to refine and sell most, if not all of it’s oil and rely on nuclear power for her domestic energy.
Her oil sales will not be dollar based and most will go to China. In very simplistic terms the West will suffer, the IMF will suffer and the World Bank will be defunct. Hence the desire to smash her. Therefore to me it is crucial we change – give up hegemony, give up pointless war (esp. after the carnage in Iraq) and engage with Iran -many opportunities exist there for British expertise. That will crush the long standing relationship as America’s staunt ally unless we can pursuade America to break with the Israeli regime and follow our lead – impossible? I have to say yes – so a pre-emptive strike is inevitable.
Absolutely.
During the 1980s, the CIA had its largest station outside Langley in Pakistan – it was on the main road b/w Islamabad and Rawalpindi. Over several decades, extreme (and extremely wealthy) reactionaries from Saudi Arabia have poured billions into setting up ‘madrassahs’ all over Pakistan, for a long time with the blessing of the CIA (while the cannon-fodder produced was useful to them). Those who have bought into the current fashion for dogmatic, simple-minded religion as a substitute for thought will refuse to criticise the Saudi Arabian regime because that’s where their cult derives its money from.
There were endemic problems in Pakistan – rural feudalism, poor literacy, mal-distribution of wealth, the military… the usual panoply of a ‘Third World’ client state, perpetuated by an ‘anti-communist’ (for which, read anti-anything-which-redressed injustice) alliance b/w the US state and the Pakistan military of which General Zia-ul-Haq (and all the military dictators the country has had) was the epitome.
But outside forces – let’s call a spade a spade, the USA – in systemic collusion with various internal elites, very much had to do with the internal destabilisation of the Pakistan over several decades. The entire Afghan War of the 1980s b/w the USA and the USSR was fought through Pakistan. To attempt to deny this is ahistorical and simply beggars belief. We now are watching the direct results of those policies.
This also has nothing to do with bashing anything Pakistani just because it remains acceptable in he UK to do so. If someone hates or despises ‘Pakis’, or ‘Jews’, or any other group of people for whatever reason, or seems to feel the need to homogenise 170 million people into a row of guys pissing against a wall, that’s their problem, but it is important that such facile and visceral racism not be confused with political analysis or even with self-examination.
Reminds me of that great quote: “sometimes I thank God I’m an atheist”.
–techniclour [sic][or technciolour*]
It’s cultural baggage. Many atheists (like me) will say “God love her” or “Thank God he wasn’t killed”, but it’s nothing more than habit/upbringing/culture.
There’s that joke about atheists in a lifeboat, who all start praying when it starts to sink. I used to wonder if I’d be one of them. I found out otherwise. The night before major heart surgery I was told by one of the junior docs (doing the whole consent form thing) that I had a 1 in 15 chance of copping it on the operating table.
Five minutes after he left, a nurse came in and asked me did I want to see a priest (although I’d put myself down as atheist on the sign-in form. That’s Ireland for you.)
I said “God, no!”. And I didn’t. But the nurse is still looking at me.
*You frequently mis-spell your handle. Is there more than one of you? Or do you have dyslexic fingers when you type fast, like I do?
Clark,
Thanks for the info on Prof Bill Bowring. I’m *assuming* it’s highly unlikely that he’ll get anywhere.
By the way, I see that those medical records (supposedly sealed for 70 years) in the David Kelly case will be released to those doctors who are demanding an inquest. It’s good news.
so a pre-emptive strike is inevitable.
–Mark Golding
I’m very afraid that you’re right. And it will be another atrocity on the part of our so-called “side” (Not in My Name!). Even the US intelligence agencies say there is no bomb or plans for one.
Suhayl Saadi
Ok I’ll write Glasgow, just bellow Pakistan in my list of places I don’t want to go.
I’m glad you mentioned Pakistani Films. Because that is something else I hate about Pakistan. All the films are crap. Lollywood is just a cheap knockoff of Bollywood.
Couldn’t they add some off their own culture in to it?
The only thing worse than Pakistani Movies is Pakistan’s television shows.
Crap! All crap except for George’s Pakistan, but that was staring an English Guy. The rest of it was completely rubbish especial that transvestite attempting a cheap knock off of dame edna.
And the cooking shows, each and everyone of them is a knock off of two fat ladies.
And Pakistani food is crap too.
And I hate the Urdu Language, all it is is Hindi. But Pakistanis seem to think it is a form of Arabic for some reason?
I hate it so much so that I have forbidden my wife to speak to my children in that language.
“Tony Blair Iraq inquiry evidence ludicrous, says Short”…
http://tinyurl.com/ycpfjqf
“737 U.S. Military Bases = Global Empire”…
tinyurl.com/yafns3y
Arsalan,
Interestingly a neighbour is an Indian lady, aspires to the Hindu faith, partnered with an Englishman and between them they had a little girl. He turned out to be a thief and went to prison.
She met a Pakistani man(a taxi driver) and they had a son. They fell out of love for each other very quickly and parted. However the Pakistani man was solid with his son, paid for his education in a private nursery and visited most days. He insisted his son was bought up in the Muslim faith.
I asked the Indian lady why she partnered with this man and she replied, “because I knew he was safe.” Her daughter, now a young lady, hated the Muslim man and left home, never to return. A broken home for all the wrong reasons perhaps?
“so a pre-emptive strike is inevitable”
It has seemed inevitable for a few years now but hasn’t materialised. Attacking a well-defended country with very powerful allies is a rather different kettle of fish from invading Iraq or Afghanistan, Lebanon or Gaza.
Blair was cranking up a conflict with Iran on Friday.
This article from the Guardian tonight reports Obama putting in a Patriot anti-missile shield for countries neighbouring countries and keeping two warships in place in the Gulf capable of firing missiles.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/31/iran-nuclear-us-missiles-gulf
Note ‘Pro-Israel lobby groups in the US have joined Republican party leaders in trying to build public pressure on the administration to take a tougher line with Iran. One group, the Israel Project, has been running a TV campaign warning that Iran might supply nuclear weapons to terrorists.’
and
‘Tony Blair, Middle East envoy on behalf of the US, Russia, the UN and the EU, continually referred to what he described as the Iranian threat during his evidence at the Chilcot inquiry last Friday. Textual analysis now shows that he mentioned Iran 58 times.
Besides the new missile deployment, Washington is also helping Saudi Arabia to create a 30,000-strong force to protect oil installations and other infrastructure, as well as expanded joint exercises between the US and military forces in the region.’
It’s starting up all over again. Have the neocons not spilt enough blood already?