I watched Ross Kemp’s documentary on Paleastine yesterday and it was much better than I had expected. I have never watched any of his travel documentaries before – their advertising portrays them as “Our hard nut goes to see if other hard nuts are really as vicious as London East End gangsters”.
It is impossible, unless you are obscenely ill-motivated, to do a documentary in Gaza that does not leave you appalled at the plight of the Palestinian people there. But Kemp gave the Palestinians a much fairer and fuller hearing than I had expected, and while there was a great deal of editorial horror at the attitudes of Islamic terrorists and their supporters, it came over very strongly – and Kemp himself plainly “got”, that those attitudes were caused by the atrocities and indignities to which the Palestinians are subjected.
Which made Kemp’s documentary much more intelligent than Michael Portillo’s effort on Guantanamo. Portillo never for one moment questioned whether Islamic hatred of the West was in any sense caused or triggered. He seemed to accept that Guantanamo holds a core of “some 50” diehard terrorists who are intrinsically evil, and he agreed explicitly that they should be kept locked up forever even though there was no evidence against them that could stand up in court.
His glib “I am a politician and I know about tough decisions like abandoning legality” line was helped by two intellectual dishonesties. He never considered the causality of terrorism, and he did not mention the possibility that some of that “core” of fifty might be innocent. He described the moral dilemma as whether people you knew were guilty but could not prove it, should be locked up. Who says you know. they are guilty? I can tell you from first hand experience that a great deal of the War on Terror intelligence on individuals is woefully inaccurate and deliberatelly exagerrated.
Which Michael Portillo once seemed to understand:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/article495277.ece
Portillo reserved his compassion for the Uighurs, because they were anti-communist, and for the British ex-detainees who had been tortured. There was one particularly unsavoury piece of editing when showing a UK conference, at which an ex-detainee was making a very emotional and harrowing point; the director then cut away to a shot of Moazzam Begg grinning merrily and apparently completely inappropriately at the point.
The impression was given that cut-away was contemporaneous, and it made Moazzam look very bad. I don’t believe the cut-away was contemporaneous and think this was a deliberate bit of BBC demonisation. I don’t think it was genuine because of sound discontinuity, because BBC documentary crews nowadays almost never have two cameras, and because I know Moazzam.
Shoddy work.
Angry-soab: Where did I say to sympathise with suicide bombers … [checks back] … ah that’s right, I didn’t. Who are you referring to, that said we should sympathise with suicide bombers then? [checks again]… Ah, that’s right. Nobody. You made that up
What is it with you people that you need to fabricate (that’s lie) all the time to make your point?
Glenn, your apologetics for “suicide-bombing” included the fatuous nonsense “Surely it’s a weapon of last resort by the weak against the powerful.” Well, then “surely” you can tell me how those watching the volleyball game were powerful and the truck bomber was weak and why this was his “last resort”.
“So it appears more to do with the imbalance of power, and the desperation of the people, than religion.”
In some cases the “imbalance of power” determines who straps on the bomb. Don’t you think the father of this 13-year old kid could have detonated himself rather than his son?
“At least 41 people were killed and dozens injured when a 13-year-old boy launched a suicide bombing in a market near Pakistan’s Swat Valley.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/6305970/Boy-13-kills-41-in-Taliban-suicide-bombing-in-Pakistan.html
Awww! The poor loves in the Taliban. The despair they must feel to do such things.
What is it with you people who’d sooner think up excuses for suicide bombers than condemn their murders?
Most religions have a good word or two for sympathy actualy. Condemnation gets us nowhere just keeps on killing.
Sensible people can discuss attackers circumstances and motivations without screaming Apologist! and Sympathiser!
“Sensible people can discuss attackers circumstances and motivations without screaming Apologist! and Sympathiser! ”
Okay then, what was the circumstances and motivation of Abdulmuttalab?
Poverty? I think we can discount that one.
Invasion of his home country? I think we can discount that one.
Perhaps you could offer a possibility and let us nibble on cucumber sandwiches as we do.
All I know is what the teenage kids said last night when they saw the police cordon and the body bags
My wife was trying to make out it was just a local film company doing a drama scene…
I said – they don’t work at night
All the night scenes are done in broad daylight
The last thing you want if you are recording a scene is an absence of light…
And so I didn’t know whether or not it was true
And I still do not know his name – and no one down my local pub knows anything about it
And I think
Well I know you were Male and a bit Younger than me…
But what about the poor cunts who had to clean up your blood and guts…
You didn’t give a fuck about them did you?
Tony
The “new” strategy being employed in Afghanistan by the Americans seems to be high-risk – counter terrorism, which when directed at a civilian population is often counter-productive; instead of being terrorised and cowed, they become angry and even more resolute in their resistance to foreign occupation, and in a country like Afghanistan such an outcome is garanteed.
Also, one needs to be sceptical and cautious about exactly who is behind the terror bombings of civilian targets in Afghanistan, and especially in Pakistan. To accept without question that it’s the “Taliban” who are responsible for all the bombings is foolish. The bombings in Pakistan serve the purposes of a number of different groups and countries, determined to destabilize Pakistan.
“To accept without question that it’s the “Taliban” who are responsible for all the bombings is foolish.”
But when the Taliban claim responsibility for a suicide bombing, or Gulbuddin Hekmatyar’s gang do, or Jalaluddin Haqqani, (or al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula for that matter) isn’t it worth entertaining the possibility they were responsible?
Not exactly off topic, I think it is important to know who is funding/initiating terror bombings. History teaches us that the CIA has a very strong record in this area in many parts of the world and the USA in recent years certainly hasn’t had problems with just bombing whole villages at a time. It’s not what people say but what they do that counts.
The Biblical ethnic cleansing some people can’t get their heads around is not so unbelievable.
If you can begin to overcome the conditioning that goes with living in a thoroughly Judaized culture you would understand that the pernicious genocidal faith is not Islam at all.It’s Talmudic Judaism.
Purim was the date for the launch of Bush’s Israelite blitz against Iraq in 2003.Given the power of the Israeli Lobby that wasn’t a coincidence.
Talmudism like the basis of most world faiths has laudable elements that form the basis of social cohesion and co-operation but you don’t have to look too deeply to discover it also contains the seeds of a centuries old separatist and supremacist political project for world dominion.A kingdom of this world rather than the next one.
Notwithstanding textual revision Pharisaic teachings about a vengeful tribal deity and Laws about the destruction and enslavement of non-believers are still there for all to see in the first five books of the OT, especially Deuteronomy.
So stop worrying about the Islamic caliphate it’s a corporate media-driven deception.Jewish power is entrenched in all the most powerful governments and international forums whereas muslims are barely represented in the system of global governance at all.
The dispersion of World Jewry that many believe is a weakness and basis for vulnerability is actually the very source of their current domination in all the places where it really matters.
The seeds of the civilisational War on Terror lie not so much in the Koran as the Talmud.Talmudic teaching and Hebraic custom and law have penetrated over centuries into Christianity to form the Judaeo-Christian tradition.
Nowhere is Israelism more entrenched than among the Anglo-US masonic elites who set their sights on Jerusalem and the Second Coming centuries ago.These elites were America’s Founding Fathers!
If you want to follow these guys into WW3 then Portillo,the BBC and all the other Islamophobic agitators will gleefully lead you to it.
Allelujah!
@mary: “Various Zionist trolls around the websites keep referring to Purim and giving a date of 27th February 2010. There is an implied menace in their comments. Does anyone know what it’s about?”
and
@Steelback: “The seeds of the civilisational War on Terror lie not so much in the Koran as the Talmud. Talmudic teaching and Hebraic custom and law have penetrated over centuries into Christianity to form the Judaeo-Christian tradition.”
I came across this four-page pdf about the Ancient Hebrew prophecies, in which the prophecies from the Book of Daniel are translated in terms of Iraq, Iran, Israel and the West. It starts:
“Iraq’s defeat by the American-led coalition commenced on March 19, 2003, at Shushan Purim ?” the day Purim is celebrated in Jerusalem. Triumph over neighboring Iran by Western powers has also long been predicted in Daniel 8:1-8. In fact, this Persian Gulf conflict with old Persia is the catalyst that sets in motion a torrent of end-time disasters, which follow in quick succession.”
http://www.focusontheprophecies.org/PT.%202%20PERSIAN%20GULF%20WAR%20CONFLICTS.pdf
Portaloo is part of the torture and the wars on Islam so what do we expect from him?
He obviously supports the torture because he orders it.
Let’s do a translation here; when they say “Detention with out charge” what they mean is they are allowed to lock up anyone they want for how ever long without even accusing them of a crime.
They are using Muslims as an excuse to bring in to justify it but wants people get used to it, they will use it on others.
Just as they used Muslims as an excuse to bring in the extradition agreement with America in which people are extradited to America without any evidence and without means to challenge.
To the best of my knowledge all the people extradited with it were non-Muslims who had not broken any British law.
Ah, I dunno if I’m going to get into all this biblical prophesy stuff myself. Sounds as mad as a box of frogs. But thanks for the link.
@angrysoba: Man, you are ANGRY. 🙂 Careful you don’t frighten the Japanese. But seriously, don’t you think the Pape book makes sense?
Here, read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win
And if it cools your baubles any, Robert Pape isn’t some woolly pinko apologist liberal. He taught air strategy at the USAF school of advanced studies, amongst other jobs.
It looks like a good, rational objective study to me.
PS – I think we can all agree that suicide bombing is very bad, mmm’kay?
“Just as they used Muslims as an excuse to bring in the extradition agreement with America in which people are extradited to America without any evidence and without means to challenge.
To the best of my knowledge all the people extradited with it were non-Muslims who had not broken any British law.”
That is certainly true. I’d fucking love to know exactly what was said, and by whom, and to who, in the transatlantic discussion on UK-US extradition. Presumably it has something to do with our intelligence-sharing agreements and nuclear-rented weapons and the possibility the US would just kidnap who it wanted.
angry-soab: I don’t say terrorism is the weapon of the weak, Amnesty International does.
Nobody was offering sympathy and cucumber sandwiches, you made that up. Just like you make up so much.
But I’ll agree, terrorism is not confined to the weak – indeed, the CIA invented the car-bomb. America employed terrorism expansively across central America. Death-squads, torture and other terrorist devices were used by America and its stooges, trained in “The school of the Americas” in Georgia (US). A terrorism academy, a place to train dictators. You must be very proud.
But suicide bombings are always done by the weaker army. And we’re not talking about the end target, that would be an idiot’s point in measuring relative force. We’re talking about the central power involved.
I think it’s a waste of time trying to talk with you, frankly. Being so angry all the time, you probably see the world through a red haze and can’t think properly.
‘Kemp himself plainly “got”, that those attitudes were caused by the atrocities and indignities to which the Palestinians are subjected.’
You’re priceless.
Glenn,
Please address the following, from a previous thread:
Heh Glenn, do you believe, as Anno believes that “nobody here believes that Obama had a Muslim education, except in order to be able to pose as a friend to Islam.”
Do you believe what Jaded wrote:
“An Israeli firm controls security at Amsterdam airport by the way. Same with all the 9/11 flights. I guess saying this must make me an ‘anti-semite’ or something, but what the hell!”
Just how much do you align yourself with Texan right-wing nutjob Alex Jones – as much as Arsalan Goldberg?
Larry: Here’s a shocker for you. Glen Beck has been lying, along with the propaganda arm of the Republic Party Fux News, and Obama is not a secret Muslim.
Israel does a lot of security, so it wouldn’t surprise me if they had involvement in Schiphol too. Another shocker, eh?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-harris/what-israel-can-teach-the_b_408720.html
Please refer to my previous comments on Alex Jones, I addressed that subject more than adequately.
Glenn, I agree that Obama is not a secret Muslim, but you allow the silly Anno’s comments to pass without comment.
Your point out that “Israel does security stuff” is a bizarre failure in relevance. It’s certainly not the case that there’s any evidence that the Israelis had anything to do with the Schiphol bomber or the 911 suicide Muslims.
You seem ready to paint me as some Fox News nutjob, which is certainly not true, and there are plenty of nutjobs in the comments at this site that are even nuttier than Glenn Beck.
If you don’t like Alex Jones so much, don’t you think it’s odd that you’ve dreamed up the same conspiracies?
Several Christian pastors across the US now encourage their flocks-who have been proselytized to think of themselves as Israel’s lost sheep to observe Jewish holidays.
The real “fun” day is 19th March:Purim which according to the book of Esther celebrates the slaughter of tens of thousands of Persians.
angrysoba
“Sensible people can discuss attackers circumstances and motivations without screaming Apologist! and Sympathiser! ”
Okay then, what was the circumstances and motivation of Abdulmuttalab?
Poverty? I think we can discount that one.
Invasion of his home country? I think we can discount that one.
Perhaps you could offer a possibility and let us nibble on cucumber sandwiches as we do.”
What you are missing is the phenomenon of identification or affiliation of a person with a group to which he himself does not belong. PETN underpants man was not poor, was not Arab and does not come from a country that is currently under foreign occupation. However it is possible that seeing what he perceives to be injustice happening to others with whom he identifies for whatever reason, common Muslim religion is an obvious one, may be enough to prompt action. Also Nigeria is not now occupied by a foreign power but not so long ago it was so and the historical memory of that time may still persist.
When communist revolutions start they are waged on behalf of the working class but the main actors always come from the bourgeoisie intellectual class whose attitude to the lumpen proletariat on whose behalf they claim to act is one of contempt. Most of the people who agitated against the institution of slavery were not themselves slaves but they still felt enough affiliation with people who were to work on their behalf.
Imagine if Zimbabwe started expelling the remaining white citizens just as Uganda under Amin expelled the Asians, would not you angrysoba feel affiliation with these white Christian anglo people and be outraged on their behalf and want to support some action against Zimbabwe? If the action against the whites went on long enough and was extreme enough might there not be some white suicide bombers not just from white Zimbabwe but from the UK.
It is obvious that in the Arab/Muslim parts of the world, consciousness of what Arab/Muslims see as injustices to themselves and their coreligionists is both wide spread and acute.
Steelback,
7’s the key number here. Think about it. 7-Elevens. 7 dwarves. 7, man, that’s the number. 7 chipmunks twirlin’ on a branch, eatin’ lots of sunflowers on my uncle’s ranch.
angrysoba
Perhaps I am over-interpreting things, but I take your handle “angrysoba” to be expressing something that you need to say about yourself. I read it as An Angry Son of a Bitch. This suggests that like me you come across things on the internet that talk about injustices and absurdities that enrage you. How many of these result in injustices to your own group rather than groups of which you are not a member but for whom you feel affiliation and sympathy?
It’s a noodle
Soba noodles are native Japanese noodles – is that relevant perhaps?
The “angry” remains.
At least the troll has quit with the non-stop stupid questions.
Some words have owners, and no matter who uses them they always serve the interests of their owners.
Some words are weapons and can only used in word games that are in fact actions in a war.
Some words are bent, the attributes that are associated with them are such that they are prefabricated parts for lies and those who use the words are unaware of this.
All the above apply to the words “terror” and “terrorism”. The dishonesty is in what they don’t cover, they never cover the actions of the agents of a state even though these actions induce terror and are meant to induce terror. When 4 NYPD plains clothes police pumped 19 bullets into Amadou Diallo while he was in front of his apartment building fumbling for his keys, this was not terrorism. It did in fact inflict terror on Blacks in the USA, the subsequent acquittal of the 4 police on charges of murder was a reinforcing act of terror. When Israel killed 1400 Gazans, most of them civilians this was not terror even though it had the effect of terrorizing as it was meant to do so. When the coalition of the willingly murderous inflicted “Shock and Awe” on Iraq that was not terrorism even though it caused terror as it was meant to do so. Also not terror is calling air strikes against Afghan wedding parties.
The words terror and terrorist can only ever be used agains poor people who don’t have a state with an army with tanks, helicopter gunships and F16s. The words are weapons used by the USA, Israel and the UK and lately by Russia in the propaganda wars against the people whose resistance to oppression is to be delegitimized.
@Rob Lewis: “Ah, I dunno if I’m going to get into all this biblical prophesy stuff myself. Sounds as mad as a box of frogs.”
I’m with you on that. But I suppose the important point is: do those who do believe in it have the power to influence events?
writerman
I am beginning to wonder whether winning is what the US wants in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The USA is ruled on behalf of a kleptocratic elite of no more than 1% of the population. This elite has two right wing parties that alternate in power. The Democrats pretend to be in opposition when the Republicans are ruling and can do nothing against Republican thievery, but when the Republicans are so much on the nose that they lose power, the Democrats continue Republican policies and wimp out on all the promises they made to get elected. In my view the Democrats exist to block the formation of other electable parties that would govern in the interests of the majority of non-elite Americans, to wit the “losers”.
I begin to wonder whether the destruction of the US economy , the pauperisation of the middle and working classes and hocking the nation to China actually makes sense from the point of view of the 1% of the elite. The problems of the US will be those of the other 99% as they will move their money and their corporations off shore and leave the crippling debt to the schmucks. Permanent war efficiently to transfer money from poor taxpayers to rich shareholders in corporations that contract to the Pentagon may be what they want. If this is so blowing innocent Afghan children across the landscape to maybe get a few Taliban may be a conscious strategy, they want to alienate the Afghan population precisely because it causes greater resistance and if it does cause more terrorism that is a bonus as it provides more justification for the police state.
The fact is that the US Army has never been any good at winning hearts and minds. It has however been very good at doing the opposite. The question is does the US army actually want to win hearts and minds?
The establishment of every colonial nation sooner or later requires a final solution to the indigenous question.
The feasibility of the project depends on transferring the land from the indigines to the colonists at a price that the colonists are prepared to pay. Of course the indigines will not sell because the need the land, and money is of no use to them as they do not have the cultural knowledge necessary to use it. It slips through their fingers very quickly. This means that force has to supplement the offer of payment, and once force is allowed, why bother to pay at all?
The only possible solutions are ethnic cleansing or genocide. That does not mean that the colonist has to destroy every last one of the unwanted, but they have to reduce the population drastically and convert the remainder into a demoralized rabble who direct their violence inward. We Australians has successfully done this with our aborigines. Most of the genes in their gene pool are white genes thanks to generations of a differential sexual access ratio or rape ratio. The remnants are uneducated, bellicose resentful and mostly in prison for drug offenses or violence against their relatives. We Aussies can lean on our swords and gloat as they finish themselves off. Our police only occasionally meet the need to beat one of them to death.
Since Australia is a strong supporter of Israel we should be advising them on our successful methods.
The fact is that ridding the Jewish state of the Palestinians was always a central component of the Zionist colonization though they had to hide this from the rest of the world, just as Hitler had to hide the holocaust with a war.
Carlyle Moulton: The pauperisation of the middle class is very much the plan, it would appear, and the same will be true for us in Britain if we don’t watch it. Forget the “service industries”, we’re going to have a “do you want fries with that?” economy.
Every last damned thing is made in China. Why? Because it suits corporate interests. The prices haven’t significantly gone down, even though costs of manufacture have. When Phil Nike outsourced manufacturing to Indonesia (or wherever), did the price of the products go down? Of course not. When Indonesia started getting too expensive, manufacturers switched and switched, finally ending up with communist China as the bottom level of manufacturing costs, where fair wages, working conditions, pensions, health and safety, pollution and other such nonsense gets no consideration.
Progressive changes happen when we have a strong middle class (or upwardly mobile working class). Equal rights for women, ethnic minorities – basically for those who aren’t white, straight, Christian males – all came when people had time to do more than just grind away to keep poverty and starvation at bay. Conservative forces saw this and thought it was terrible, society is falling apart. Women not knowing their place anymore? Blacks and “coloureds” allowed into polite society? My God, this has to be stopped!
So they are stopping it. It’s a war against the middle/working classes, and the richest class is winning. Why do the bottom 99.9% want tax cuts for the super-rich in America? Because they’re stupid enough to believe they’ll be that rich one day, and they’d appreciate those tax cuts when finally they get there. With the MSM all tied up by the largest corporate interests, and very few independent media of any significance, people get the impression their interests really do tie up with those of the mega-rich. Keep us misinformed, distracted and working harder than ever, and they’ll do their evil work while we’re not looking.
The world’s economy will be flattened, if the ultra-rich get their way. All manufacturing done by those making a dollar a day. The rest of us living on increasing debt, until the entire financial system collapses – again. Then the likes of Goldman Sachs will pick up shares, property and commodities for pennies on the pound, and we’ll get the whole thing rolling again. Just like they did in the 1930’s. Only this time, there will be no manufacturing base with which to recover. We’ll remain mostly in poverty – they like us that way.