Difficult journey to Ghana Europe snow now here very intermittent connection speedtest 3kbps (sic) when working. Almost impossible post. Ghana Telecom privatised to Vodafone much worse. Try post tomorrow.
Allowed HTML - you can use:
<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>
Clark,
At least you’re thinking of the issues – but it does seem that you really don’t understand what we’ve learned about psychology over the years. I know you’re 46 or 47 years old, so you think that gives you some expertise in all matters, but I’m guessing that you’ve read nothing of experimental psychology or evolutionary psychology. There are some great resources out there.
Clark,
You don’t seem to understand is that “The Elite” – if it exists – is a very fluid concept in America. As it is in the U.K., of course, but more so in America.
If you think there’s a Star Chamber out there that wields covert power, then you’re getting into Alex Jones territory, which is something I suspect of everyone on this blog.
“When I visited Kurdistan, I was visiting someone, when a man came in with a green scarf, repeatedly mentioning Allah’s name.
He was provided with tea,food and money.
Many strange things are done in the name of religion and it gives religion a bad name.”
When I hitch-hiked around Morocco, every evening somebody from the nearest bunch of houses/tents/habitations would approach me and insist I come into their house & be given a bed for the night. It was somewhat embarrassing all round, I had no idea what they would find polite or rude, they probably had even less idea how to deal with a weird English hippy … but, clearly a refusal would offend, so we did it. Eventually I had enough words in common with someone to ask them why it was. Answer – to look after travellers is a religious obligation.
Many strange things are done in the name of religion and not all of them should be despised.
(In my more disgusted moments, I wonder what would happen to one of those Morroccan villagers hitch-hiking round Britain, and rather suspect it would be less of a positive experience).
“Truthers tend to focus on the WTC7 collapse, as it had not been hit by a plane. The Kean Commission seemed to share their puzzlement, as their report omitted mention of it.”
Truthers are just incredible. You know, Dr. Judy Wood has strenuously attempted to make the case that laser beams demolished the Towers. Also, Charles Pegelow, one of the few actual structural engineers (perhaps the only one) at Architects & Engineers for 911 Truth, believes that nuclear weapons might have brought down the Towers.
With your idiot logic, since the Commission did not mention these hypotheses, it must mean that these assertions caused them “puzzlement.”
“Let’s imagine that the floors around the point of impact are not damaged or weakened as NIST claim, but entirely and instantaneously vanish. The part of the building above this space (about 10 floors) drops on to the part of the building below (about 90 floors) and crushes it out of existence, falling at a speed little slower than free-fall. This is the physics of a Road Runner cartoon – perhaps Wile E. Coyote was piloting the plane?”
That’s exactly what didn’t happen, you fucking moron. How dumb are you? Are you so stupid that you don’t account for the massive fires caused by the burning jet fuel? Do you understand that the building was weakened by falling and burning jet fuel?
Jesus you people really do live in cartoons.
Vronsky, if you want to grow up a bit and stop being manipulated by American right-wing conspiracy theorists, you can start here:
http://forums.randi.org/local_links.php?catid=18
Related to what Clark was writing about the American revulsion to the idea that their own elites may have been involved; My experience talking to Americans is that of all nationalities, they are the most likely to assume their government is inherently good. I think this is generally true of all the big western states, but the US takes it to the most extreme. There are so many assumptions made that the way their world view is framed it doesn’t even really allow for the idea of the state being anything but perfect in intent (but maybe not in execution).
Having travelled a lot, it was initially a real eye opener as to how politically astute people in the developing world are. I was in Thailand when 911 occurred, and was in India less than a month after. I was shocked when beggars would approach me to talk international politics (it also shamed me greatly that these same beggars were fluent in 12 languages while I barely manage to use 1). Basically people in the developing world know their government is self interested and corrupt, and assume that is true the world over, which it is, although it can take various forms.
Larry: “You don’t seem to understand is that “The Elite” – if it exists – is a very fluid concept in America.”
Really? George W earned his position as President of the US? The US almost had Bush(4) – Clinton(8) – Bush(8) – Clinton(?) for the last 4 Presidents and your trying to argue there isn’t an elite? That could of been up to 28 years of rule by 2 families (instead it was a mere 20 years). What about Senators and Congress? Are they your typical Americans or do they come from wealth that most could never aspire to?
Fine debating style, Larry. If there were any doubters here before, you’ll certainly have made up their minds now. Thank you for so succinctly identifying the side of the argument that employs reason.
OK I’ll give you GWB. But Clinton – he grew up a poor fatherless kid in a shithole in Arkansas. Obama grew up fatherless as well (you neglected to mention Obama).
Representatives tend not to be elitist – anyone can and does get elected to the House. The Senate does attract a lot of big names, but it has its share of self-made persons – in fact, I’d guess that self-made people account for the majority of the Senate (clearly this is the case for the House).
“wealth that most could never aspire to?” – As I’m surrounded by many self-made upper-middle class people, I have no idea what you’re talking about.
@cheebacow
You might find this review of Avatar interesting.
tinyurl.com/ybshwoy
Vronsky,
As to the phone calls, do you realize that you’ve told us nothing? At best, you’ve pointed out a few anomalies. What exactly is your position? You nuts have had 8 1/2 years to come up with some sort of cohesive narrative, and you’ve provided nothing.
OK, so I take it that you believe that the Towers were pre-planted with explosives. So you’re that type of conspiracy theorist.
But what do the phone calls of the Pentagon flight have to do with it? Were the phone calls faked using some secret James Bond technology? And if the SECRET ELITE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. was so brilliant to wire the Towers ahead of the planes, why did they trip up in faking the phone calls?
You’re a conspiracy nut. You’ll be arguing the same stupidity for many years to come.
‘theThing’ is in particularly insidious form today eh 😉
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41UAnkQARFs
Thats a video of Bin Laden that was shown to a roomfull of journalists in a White House press conference just after 9/11. I remember watching it on BBC news at the time and seeing clearly that the guy in the video looked nothing like the other pictures of Bin Laden that were released. There really is no doubt at all that it is a video of a different person, yet it wasnt questioned, like the emperors clothes? Later people discussing it online where saying they couldnt tell because it was too blurred and they werent experts in ‘facial recognition’. But you can tell, it does take any expertese, it just takes an evolved sapien ability to differentiate between different faces, which almost everyone possesses…
The whole thing was just a huge headfuck, but I think there is little point in revisiting it until there are definitive physical simulations of the collapses to cut through all the bullshit. It is frustrating to see perception warped so effectively.
crab (and others) – you strike me as a person / people who’ve never heard an argument against your nutjob positions. That is, you see something wacky on the Internets, and you automatically believe the something wacky if it fits into your preconceived political views.
That makes you quite vulnerable to manipulation.
The answers to these things are out there. You just have to mature a bit and educate yourselves.
Larry –
My point was that when 2 families almost succeed in holding 4 successive Presidencies it strongly indicates that elites do exist. The Bush family is obviously part of the elite, much like the Kennedys. I didn’t mention Obama because he isn’t a member of the Clinton of Bush family. How about Kerry and McCain, both are ridiculously rich compared to the avg US citizen.
“About two-thirds of United States senators were millionaires in 2008”
{economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/25/your-senator-is-probably-a-millionaire/}
“The wealth of the incoming class will hardly raise eyebrows in the Senate, where about half of the current 100 members are also millionaires and the average net worth is $8.9 million
{forbes.com/2006/11/17/senate-politics-washington-biz-wash_cx_jh_1120senate.html}
“In the House of Representatives, the median net worth was about $684,000, with 39 percent of members having net worths estimated to be at least $1 million. By contrast, only about 1 percent of all American adults can be considered millionaires.”
{opensecrets.org/news/2008/10/as-economic-storm-brewed-congr.html}
I don’t think there are too many millionaires that visit these forums on a regular basis.
Paraphrasing ‘thething from saint looee’ wrote:
You are naive
** That makes you quite vulnerable to manipulation **
You are imature and poorly educated
wooOOhhHHH %}
lol 🙂
Vronsky –
I watched Avatar in 3D and was totally blown away by it. Not since Terminator 2 have I actually been impressed by special effects. Fuck me, with some of the wide shots of just the alien world rendered in full 3D (complete with alien mosquitoes buzzing around) I literally got goose bumps, exactly like if I had climbed to the top of a mountain to be greeted by an amazing view in real life.
I don’t see why you would view the movie as racist unless you think colonialism is only practised by the west and if you think westerners are inherently imperialist.
Anyway I gotta log off, I’m gonna get my arse kicked if I keep using my laptop in bed =P
The US Senate and most of the House are deeply, systemically corrupt. Anyone can become a rep? – well, yeah, if they’re prepared to sell their ass to some corporate demon. America as a nation has been thoroughly gangbanged by the rich for decades, reducing it to a raddled whore looked after by a bloated and brutal military (and militarised police force).
Oh, yeah, and if Amurrica is such a shining beacon and example to us all, why is it that most of the countries surrounding it (apart from Canada) are basket cases? Haiti is a case in point, gouged, beaten and raped by the Duvaliers (with Washingtons backing) then by the IMF (with Washington’s backing). Mmm, taste that savoury smell of the Elite’s dish of violence and despair.
“Anyone can become a rep? – well, yeah, if they’re prepared to sell their ass to some corporate demon.”
That’s fundamentally not true. Strict monitoring exists for campaign donations and kickbacks. Certainly there are cases of corruption, and, if found out (as has happened recently), these guys go to jail.
Vronsky,
That’s an insightful film review. I’d appreciate links for (a) The FBI report for the Moussaoui trial and (b) the comment on NIST’s site from Victoria University, Melbourne – though NIST had to do a second analysis, didn’t they?
Richard Robinson,
thanks for your travel experiences. The better aspects of human morality are often incorporated into religions.
Having suffered it myself, it’s indoctrination of children I’m most opposed to.
CheebaCow,
thanks for your experiences of other lands, too. You needn’t have responded to Larry; he interpreted my term ‘The Elite’ as the government, when I had specified ‘covert power’. Thanks for the summary of wealt / US power. I hope I opst this in time, Bye!
—
Further to my 2:22 and 2:28, it seems something similar has happened in the UK. I doubt that New Labour would have approved the removal of civil liberties or increases of surveillance that we’ve seen if they felt that they or their families would be subject to them.
Glenn,
from way back, Jan 15,11:33; “Nobody is calling for the… police to be privitised for very obvious reasons” – some privatisation is happening, with the increase in private security, and the increased powers granted to such.
“By contrast, only about 1 percent of all American adults can be considered millionaires.”
CheebaCow, with such statistics, you have to make sure that apples are being compared to apples. That is, they’re probably counting home value as an asset for the congresspersons, but not counting it for the general population. With home value counted – before the recent issues – something like 7% of American households are deemed to be millionaire households.
Also, CheebaCow, do you know why McCain and Kerry are so wealthy?
Vronsky,
further to the ‘Avatar’ review, have you read ‘Lila’, by Robert M. Pirsig, author of ‘Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance’? Interesting stuff about Native Americans and the origins of the principle of freedom as a US concept.
1% vs 7%
So, only in the top 93% as opposed to the top 99%.
Well I suppose that’s OK then.
“Also, CheebaCow, do you know why McCain and Kerry are so wealthy?”
Is McCain anything to do with the frozen potato products of that name that UK supermarkets are full of ?
Honest question; I wonder, and don’t know.
(I really really hope that Kerry isn’t the butter. That bit’s intended as a joke.)
No, actually, but Kerry is rich because of ketchup! (catsup?)
Both of them married into money. McCain met his very wealthy wife in a bar and thereafter divorced his other wife.
Teresa Heinz lost her husband Senator Heinz in a plane crash, and John Kerry stepped in and married her. I think Kerry had some family wealth, but his wealth mostly stems from his wife’s Heinz food products money.
Could happen to anyone – just gotta be in the right place at the right time.
..why fascinating cleverThing
@clark
Victoria University comments on WTC7 report: tinyurl dot com slash ygedhsl (PDF)
FBI exhibits on phone calls: tinyurl dot com slash yl28y49 (ZIP)
A detailed analysis of the FBI evidence by David Ray Griffin: tinyurl dot com slash yl8gz59
No, I haven’t read Lila, although I did read ‘Zen’ years ago. Really up to my ears in reading just now, but will keep an eye out for it. Actually at the moment reading ‘Joseph’s Box’ by Suhayl Saadi, who occasionally posts here. Quite weird, but if you liked Zen it might appeal to you – tinyurl dotcom slash yzeytuh
Beautiful day; beautiful walk. Hope everyone had equally good time. Here’s a short small counter to fear (it gets v good in the middle):
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24365.htm
This makes post number 300 on a blog entry which said nothing!
Clark – Having suffered it myself, it’s indoctrination of children I’m most opposed to.”
Yes, but. We’ve got to teach them something, and how would it not be what we think ourselves ?
Which is not to disagree with you, just to complicate things. I’ve seen children being brought up with attitudes I felt were wrong, but … is ‘indoctrination’ any more than a way of saying that we don’t like the ‘doctrine’ in question ? Teaching a child to avoid all doctrines would itself be indoctrination, to someone who accepts one of the doctrines the child is being taught to avoid.
Or is there more ? A question of intensity, importance, something like that ?
Personally, I’m distrustful of the cult-style “us against the world” beliefs, and favour the ones that encourage us to regard other different groups as being composed of people who can probably be got along with mostly, but I don’t really see that as a religious issue. It’s not a very snappy slogan, either.