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Hello angrysoba: With all due respect, you’re arguing against a position nobody – here at least – is taking. With the same respect, you are rather fond of doing this.
“By the way, as far as ‘prosperous democratic states’ go, isn’t Detroit bankrupt? Didn’t 49 million Americans have insufficient food in 2008? How much have the attacks cost them?”
I don’t know where you get the figure of 49 million but no one said that the US was some Shangri-La. There is a world-wide recession on at present so it isn’t as if very many places are doing particularly well.
It just comes across as another irrelevant potshot as in the style of the commenter gleefully brandishing a Huff Post link that blamed the US for the crisis in Haiti. Don’t you think some of these attempts at point-scoring look a little unseemly at times?
CheebaCow said of 9/11, who cares who did it. If it was an attack then the US got what they deserved anyway.
“From a purely political perspective I’m kinda mystified when people get so worked up about which it was. If it was terrorism, its obviously blow-back from US policy in the middle east.”
In fact, it matters a great deal who was responsible. What are the grievances by those who orchestrated the attacks? The fact that the US had bases in Saudi Arabia? What kind of justification is that?
According to ALL FEDERAL AND STATE GOV’T AGENCIES (and PBS, CBS, USA today, CNN etc etc), 911 was not an inside job and 19 Muslim Arabs managed to bring about the death and destruction of 911.
“No, Larry, I’m saying you’re running out of things to say to resort to such non-sequiteurs. That’s because it’s all been said before, at length, tediously.”
Truthers are defeated on every single point that they raise about 911.
“Hello angrysoba: With all due respect, you’re arguing against a position nobody – here at least – is taking. With the same respect, you are rather fond of doing this.”
This is the same Glenn of the “Official Story” that he dubs “The Magic Arab Theory”? If that isn’t a desperate attempt at strawmanning then I don’t know what is.
It continues, however…
“For instance, just point out that the Magic Arabs could not, in fact, fly at all. Or that all the jet fuel in the world would not melt as much as a padlock, less still hundreds of tons of interconnected steel that acts as an enormous heatsink. Particularly when it’s burned in an oxygen-starved fire (which one can tell because of all that dirty smoke). Or that these were not practicing Muslims, as required in the official Magic Arab story. Or that a couple of small guys with 1″ blades could take a control of the planes from well-trained ex-forces pilots. Or that 1/2 million tons of steel and concrete apparently provided barely more resistance than air to a collapsing structure. And that enormous explosions occurred in the basement, killing many, were witnessed and reported on.”
The hijackers who piloted the planes could fly and had commercial pilots licenses. They’d all done simulator training. Would they have ever got a job with British Airways? That’s highly doubtful but irrelevant.
Nobody says jet fuel melted hundreds of tons of interconnected steel. Nobody.
You can try to essentialize Muslims if you really want to. If you really think that will help your case, but it really is a silly irrelevancy.
It was typical procedure to comply with hijackers and honestly how do you know you would have fought off four or five determined men with knives?
If the floors of the buildings were incapable of supporting the weight of 10 to 20 stories of steel as Leslie Robertson says then what makes you sure they could support them?
Fireballs down the elevator shafts set people on fire. What use would a basement explosion be if it was to take down a building in the way that the Twin Towers collapsed?
“Or indeed any of the multitude of serious problems in the Official Theory, which is even rejected by John Farmer, Senior Counsel and drafter of the 9/11 Commissions Report.”
Would you like to point out what John Farmer’s criticisms of the 9/11 Commission are and how this helps the case of the Truthers?
You may have a case if Farmer’s book, The Ground Truth, in any way casts doubt on the idea that 19 Muslims hijacked planes and flew them into buildings, what you refer to as the “Magic Arab Theory”. If Farmer does not do this then you have no business adopting him as a mascot.
Heh – to all the whiners – let’s not forget that the worst insult on here was directed at me. Roderick, MI-6’s favorite target in Calgary, called me British.
Hello Soba, let’s keep this civil, eh? I look at the poster name, and if it’s “Larry” or some-such, I don’t even bother reading it. I’d hate to have to make a list of people worth ignoring here.
Soba:
>”
>This is the same Glenn of the “Official Story” that he dubs “The Magic Arab Theory”? If that isn’t a desperate attempt at >strawmanning then I don’t know what is. ”
I called it the Magic Arab Theory, because that’s pretty much what the Official Account calls for. Desperate, not at all – the real reach is that 14 non-practicing Muslims could have done this out of fanatical ideology. Funny nobody has decided to dispute that point – fancy a go?
Soba:
>”
>The hijackers who piloted the planes could fly and had commercial pilots licenses. They’d all done simulator training. >Would they have ever got a job with British Airways? That’s highly doubtful but irrelevant. ”
They “could fly”? You know this? I wish I had your irrefutable sources, because the trainer of at least one said “He couldn’t fly at all”. Is your “they” to mean all of them? They all had a licence? Really?
Soba:
>”Nobody says jet fuel melted hundreds of tons of interconnected steel. Nobody.”
Did I say I was quoting someone? No – but the implication that burning jet fuel was involved is clearly made, let me quote you one example from your good friend Larry. This is the rather slippery nature of counterpoints which I hoped you would not make.
Quote “larry”:
—start quote
That’s exactly what didn’t happen, you fucking moron. How dumb are you? Are you so stupid that you don’t account for the massive fires caused by the burning jet fuel? Do you understand that the building was weakened by falling and burning jet fuel?
—end quote
Now your “Nobody said jet fuel melted _hundred of tons of interconnected steel_. Nobody.” concerning jet fuel is accurate, strictly speaking. But that sounds like a lawyer being very slippery indeed, given the quite obvious implications quoted from larry above.
I should have said thousands of tons, not hundreds. And I should have said appreciably weakened, not melted, and my case would have been even stronger. I appreciate the opportunity to do so.
Soba:
“You can try to essentialize Muslims if you really want to. If you really think that will help your case, but it really is a silly irrelevancy ”
The Magic Muslims is what the land of the Brave and the Free seem to believe in, and their fine Republican representatives, not me.
Soba:
“If the floors of the buildings were incapable of supporting the weight of 10 to 20 stories of steel as Leslie Robertson says then what makes you sure they could support them?”
Please re-write that sentence, I cannot make sense of it.
Soba:
“Fireballs down the elevator shafts set people on fire. What use would a basement explosion be if it was to take down a building in the way that the Twin Towers collapsed?”
Uh huh. And you know this about the lift-shafts because…? Basement explosions might well be required to set about the demolition of a building. I’ve seen/heard reports – first hand, contemporary – of bombs, thunderous explosions taking place in the building. News reports at that time surmised the building had been rigged. I have no reason to dismiss such reports. Why do you?
Glenn. What makes you say they were non-practising? The fact that some of them might have had a beer or two or the fact that they took their opportunity to go to lap-dancing bars in Las Vegas? So what? They probably didn’t have as much chance to do so in Jeddah.
“They “could fly”? You know this? I wish I had your irrefutable sources, because the trainer of at least one said “He couldn’t fly at all”. Is your “they” to mean all of them? They all had a licence? Really?”
This is silly. You are making the case that they couldn’t fly at all because one guy said this about Hani Hanjour. Yet Hanjour had a commercial pilot’s license and had done simulator training.
Jet fuel… Of course jet fuel had a role to play in the burning of the Towers. The steel floors sagged under the heat and the steel perimeter buckled. I showed a video of this before to MJ who said, “I’ve seen lots of videos of the Towers collapsing.” But he apparently didn’t need to see this which SHOWED the perimeter walls collapsing from the fire and under the weight of the building above.
“The Magic Muslims is what the land of the Brave and the Free seem to believe in, and their fine Republican representatives, not me.”
What do you mean by Magic Muslims?
“Please re-write that sentence, I cannot make sense of it.”
10-15 stories of steel and concrete very heavy! Put it on the floor and the floor will break. Next floor will also break. Next floor will also break. None of the floors are appreciably stronger than the one above it so why should any one floor arrest the fall of the Towers?
“10-15 stories of steel and concrete very heavy! Put it on the floor and the floor will break. Next floor will also break. Next floor will also break. None of the floors are appreciably stronger than the one above it so why should any one floor arrest the fall of the Towers?”
Oh and that is my paraphrasing of Leslie Robertson.
I also posted a link to a debate between him and Steven Jones in my discussion with MJ. MJ said that I probably misrepresented what he said. He didn’t apparently listen to the debate.
Soba:
—start
Glenn. What makes you say they were non-practising? The fact that some of them might have had a beer or two or the fact that they took their opportunity to go to lap-dancing bars in Las Vegas? So what? They probably didn’t have as much chance to do so in Jeddah.
—end
Precisely. No way were these guys practicing Muslims, so it’s ludicrous to suggest they were about to give their lives for the same. Maybe, as a fanatical Catholic, I’ll just burn a few crosses and masturbate to a picture of the virgin Mary, before killing myself. In the name of the Catholic church. Riiiiiiight.
Soba:
—-start
This is silly. You are making the case that they couldn’t fly at all because one guy said this about Hani Hanjour. Yet Hanjour had a commercial pilot’s license and had done simulator training.
—-end
Now this is what I’m talking about with your being slippery, Soba. You claimed they could all fly. I give a fleeting reference to doubt this, and now the burden is on me to prove that they couldn’t fly? How come?
You were making the case that they could all fly, if you recall – actually, they’d have to be able to fly Jumbo jets with some rather impressive ability. Could you provide some proof they were capable of this? Please don’t pretend some passing ability in a 1-engined Censna is somehow comparable to fancy manoeuvres in a 757! Stop being quite so slippery, please!
Magic Muslims: These are the guys that Republicans are extremely afraid of, because apparently they turn into the sort of people who feature in the film The Matrix. That’s why they wet their pants if they such Arabs might set foot on das deutsche Vaterland, sorry, the Homeland of America.
Soba (a re-translation):
—-start
10-15 stories of steel and concrete very heavy! Put it on the floor and the floor will break. Next floor will also break. Next floor will also break. None of the floors are appreciably stronger than the one above it so why should any one floor arrest the fall of the Towers?
—-end
Because they were built to stand the weight of _all_ of the floors above it in the first place. Jeez!
Time for apologies.
To Larry, whose WMB syndrome, white man’s burden of layers of guilt at savaging the world like a pit bull, has now reached the same level as us old colonial bastard British. Sorry. I didn’t know you were a genuine, born-again, US zio-bastard. Maybe Obama’s mission to Haiti will soothe your overheated conscience and you will become a little less defensive of your vicious rulers.
Sorry to the BBC world service which is broadcasting a series about the geniuses of science and medicine in Iraq in the middle ages. Perhaps this represents BBC ‘ balance ‘ against all the lies they tell about the Iraq invasion. Culture, culture, art, art, music, sport – so much more important than truth about brutal demonic bullying by the superpowers. i always think.
Soba: For reasons of time, no doubt, you dropped the points about the incredibly hot properties of burning jet fuel on that particular day, and also the multiple reports about bombs in the basement.
Do I have to explain that nobody actually _claimed_ anything about the particularly hot properties of burning jet fuel… no, of course I don’t, because you understand irony just fine. Correct?
Anno,
if you’re still here, my apologies go to you.
Glenn: What the Hell are you calling me slippery for?
Look at what YOU wrote at 6:06 PM:
“All the Truthers need to do is point out the huge discrepancies in the Magic Arab Theory, and the Official Story is shot through.
For instance, just point out that the Magic Arabs could not, in fact, fly at all.”
So, I imagined that YOU had evidence for this.
I said: “The hijackers who piloted the planes could fly and had commercial pilots licenses. They’d all done simulator training. Would they have ever got a job with British Airways? That’s highly doubtful but irrelevant.”
As far as I know all the hijackers who piloted the planes had commercial licenses.
So you said:
“They “could fly”? You know this? I wish I had your irrefutable sources, because the trainer of at least one said “He couldn’t fly at all”. Is your “they” to mean all of them? They all had a licence? Really?”
Hani Hanjour had a commercial pilot’s license. Mohammed Atta had a pilot’s license. Ziad Jarrah had a pilot’s license. Marwan al-Shehhi had a pilot’s license. So, yes. They all had pilot’s licenses and they all trained on simulators for larger jets.
I said: “This is silly. You are making the case that they couldn’t fly at all because one guy said this about Hani Hanjour. Yet Hanjour had a commercial pilot’s license and had done simulator training.”
So you said: “Now this is what I’m talking about with your being slippery, Soba. You claimed they could all fly. I give a fleeting reference to doubt this, and now the burden is on me to prove that they couldn’t fly? How come?”
What? Why is the burden of proof on me? I said they had licenses. This is true. Don’t believe me? Check it out.
“You were making the case that they could all fly, if you recall – actually, they’d have to be able to fly Jumbo jets with some rather impressive ability. Could you provide some proof they were capable of this? ”
Where did you get this about what their ability with Jumbo jets MUST be? Nobody says they must be able to fly jumbo jets so I don’t have to provide any proof that they could.
“Please don’t pretend some passing ability in a 1-engined Censna is somehow comparable to fancy manoeuvres in a 757! Stop being quite so slippery, please!”
I told you they trained on simulators!!!!1!!!eleventy!!! Why is that irrelevant to you? How do you know what they could and couldn’t fly after that?
Glenn, it’s bizarre that your whole case against this aspect of the 9/11 commission rests on one guy who thought Hani Hanjour was a bad pilot. What on Earth counter-scenario do you see happening here?
Four guys all with commercial pilots licenses took over planes along with three or four accomplices as was witnessed by passengers who contacted people on the ground and as was communicated to ATC when the hijackers themselves tried to speak to the passengers and then three of those planes slammed into buildings. Your response, “Ah! But someone said he might not have been a good pilot.”
Anyway, I don’t have time to go into all the others just yet.
angrysoba: “CheebaCow said of 9/11, who cares who did it. If it was an attack then the US got what they deserved anyway.”
Usually I ignore your posts because I don’t find them interesting. However, that’s real fucking dirty to misrepresent what I said like that. Blow-back is a perfectly acceptable term to use when discussing politics and not controversial. I guess I must be real crazy to suggest that providing arms and training to religious nutters to fight proxy wars isn’t the best idea. I never said ‘deserved’, and I have already argued on this blog that it is never acceptable to target civilians.
angrysoba: “What are the grievances by those who orchestrated the attacks?”
Seriously? The grievances of the Arab world towards US policy is elementary stuff. If you don’t know, then I would suggest you are either being dishonest or you are seriously lacking in knowledge and would be better off spending some time researching recent middle east history rather than posting uninformed opinion. This is simple first year university material, with no academic controversy. US policy towards Israel, US propping up dictatorships in oil states etc etc. If you want to know bin Laden’s reasons, just read his letter: {guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver}.
I found the above analysis of writing styles to determine nationality amusing and intriguing. Anyone want to guess my nationality based on what/how I write. I think I have provided enough clues throughout my posts, but then again I already know the answer =P
Technicolour wrote:
Look, does it really matter? I have a feeling that all of this is successfully distracting us from what’s happening now, on our streets, in our parliaments. Richard Shepherd, one of last year’s candidates for Speaker, was telling people until he was blue in the face (well, he was a Tory) that Parliament is being eroded, that its powers are being taken away, but nobody was listening
—
Agreed, I saw the expenses scandals as being part of such an attack on our elected representatives status and confidence, not a real attempt to improve their integrity. Only very small fry where made examples of, for previously accepted, widespreadly taken accounting perks. Meanwhile -amazingly- Billions of times as much public money was donated to failed financial companies whose executives enjoy massive expense accounts and salaries to boot.
CheebaCow, I rate high your posts ive read, but that is some funky fishfood there -the supposed testimoney from the Magic Arab Extraordinaire. I couldnt tap it with my telson. ymmv though 🙂
If you look at the web pages of the Herald ‘newspaper’ (www theherald dot co dot uk) you will find that, almost uniquely in the online newspaper world, readers’ comments on stories are not permitted. This was not always the case -there was once a lively forum. However this forum mostly seemed to represent a politically separatist strain of thought, to the extent that it attracted the attention of senior members of the dominant Unionist party in Scotland, who condemned it. Then posts began to appear, claiming to be from unionists. These posts were typically brief, just a sentence or two, and contained direct personal abuse of other posters rather than any substantive argument (sound familiar?). Threads could be rendered unreadable by the sheer volume of these witless contributions, and it is quite clear that many sensible posters gave up and stopped visiting the site. Herald ‘journalists’ cleverly characterised the abusive posts as ‘nationalist’ and to cut a long story short the forum was closed and remains so.
But were the contributions really so witless? The forum which so annoyed the Unioinist establishment is now gone. When examining the posts of angrysoba and Larry, remember the words of Goebbels: it is not the purpose of propaganda to be intelligent, but to bring success. My sister entertained ambitions of becoming a writer, and decided that the easiest market would be Mills & Boon romantic novels. She gave up after a while. “Writing badly isn’t as easy as you might think” she told me. So let’s be careful not to dismiss Larry and angrysoba as dim and deluded – there could be more to it, and we should limit our reaction to them to the reaction they deserve: none at all. Ordinarily I ignore them: I’ve acknowledged their presence here, because this thread is about nothing so they can’t drag us off topic. I also have a hidden agenda – I want to see if they will help us to get 500 posts on a thread about nothing. It will be hard for them – they only have two tools in the box – if abuse doesn’t work try ridicule: if that’s not working either, start over again with abuse. Over to you, guys – 381 and counting.
“Usually I ignore your posts because I don’t find them interesting. However, that’s real fucking dirty to misrepresent what I said like that. Blow-back is a perfectly acceptable term to use when discussing politics and not controversial. ”
I said that because you made this statement:
“From a purely political perspective I’m kinda mystified when people get so worked up about which it was. If it was terrorism, its obviously blow-back from US policy in the middle east. If its false flag, then it was obvious justification for continuing and even increasing the existing policy in the middle east. In other words, if its blow-back the US should alter its imperialist policies, and if its false flag we shouldn’t allow it to be an excuse to continue the existing policies in an even more aggressive manner.”
Now, if you mean that either way it is no excuse for war then I apologise.
But I took it to mean that somehow you saw the attacks as a legitimate response to US foreign policy. I’m not so sure that foreign policy should be conducted according to the demands of a Saudi dissident but this seems to be very strongly what you are implying.
So let’s look at Osama bin Laden’s demands:
a) The US allows the Jews to occupy Palestine. Okay? What should be done about this? Do you think the Jews have no right to live in Palestine? If the US drops its support for Israel what do you think will happen?
b) Support for Russian, China and India against Muslims. Does the US support Russia in Chechnya or China in East Turkestan? I think they’re mostly silent on the issue if not condemnatory of Russia’s and China’s actions. Suport for India in Kashmir? This is nebulous.
c) “Propping up” dictatorships in Egypt and Saudi Arabia? Again, these are pretty nebulous charges. How does the US prop up these dictatorships? I agree with bin Laden that they aren’t good governments but what has that got to do with the US – and as a side thought, if the US started trading with Iran, North Korea, Cuba and Myanmar would this make them proppers-up of those regimes? If they don’t trade with them does this make them hostile? Is blowback inevitable in any foreign policy?
e) US forces are based in eg. Saudi Arabia. Why were they in Saudi Arabia? When asked to leave by those governments what did the US do?
f) Sure, I agree the sanctions were terrible. I think Saddam Hussein bears some of this responsibility, however.
g) This one is not worth addressing.
Oh, and then there’s some justification that people in democracies choose their governments therefore everyone is guilty of the behaviour of their government.
Anyway, I don’t agree with bin Laden on his justification for blowback.
” let’s be careful not to dismiss Larry and angrysoba as dim and deluded – there could be more to it, and we should limit our reaction to them to the reaction they deserve: none at all. Ordinarily I ignore them: I’ve acknowledged their presence here, because this thread is about nothing so they can’t drag us off topic. I also have a hidden agenda – I want to see if they will help us to get 500 posts on a thread about nothing. It will be hard for them – they only have two tools in the box – if abuse doesn’t work try ridicule: if that’s not working either, start over again with abuse. Over to you, guys – 381 and counting.”
Glenn, is what Vronsky just wrote “irony”? You see he says Larry and I only know how to be abusive and ridicule while writing a whole post doing just that.
Angrysoba,
check your inbox.
“Precisely. No way were these guys practicing Muslims, so it’s ludicrous to suggest they were about to give their lives for the same. Maybe, as a fanatical Catholic, I’ll just burn a few crosses and masturbate to a picture of the virgin Mary, before killing myself. In the name of the Catholic church. Riiiiiiight.”
Yes, Glenn and Catholic priests have never been known to knob altar boys. Oh wait!
I don’t know who died and made you ayatollah, Glenn, but in my experience most Muslims of my acquaintance don’t mind drinking beer or even – gasp!- eating pork from time to time. While living here in Japan they seem to have no problem with it except during Ramadan but when they visit home in Egypt, Sudan or Iran they become suddenly more “devout”. Maybe because they don’t have a choice or temptation to drink and pick up chicks is too strong in Japan.
Either way I have no problem believing that these guys could believe they were carrying out a mission in the cause spelt out in bin Laden’s letter as linked to by Cheebacow AND could behave in a way that their religion would frown on.
“Soba: For reasons of time, no doubt, you dropped the points about the incredibly hot properties of burning jet fuel on that particular day”
The heat of the jet fuel wasn’t special. It was hot enough for the steel to lose its structural integrity.
Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rbfLLp7rBI&feature=player_embedded
Glenn: “Because they were built to stand the weight of _all_ of the floors above it in the first place. Jeez!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAdcNEa6PTQ
9/11….blah blah… blah blah…
….fFFFFFFUUUUUU!!!!!!
;]
Synchronicity! Suhayl Saadi on the difficulties of writing badly.
tinyurl dot com slash ylxy7jt
#389
Thanks again to whoever posted that wonderful video, it’s just made my day.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24365.htm
CheebaCow,
thank you for linking to Osama bin Laden’s letter.
All,
if you have not read Osama bin Laden’s letter, please do so. It is quite obviously a declaration of responsibility, and lays out grievances very clearly. Having read it, I find it impossible to believe that any US elite could be solely responsible for 911.
I hope that Craig’s blog can now cease to be dominated by arguments about the non-motivational aspects of 911.
Obviously I did not see the wholesale slaughter of civilians on 911 as legitimate. I know my posts here have never suggested such a thing (and in fact have explicitly argued the opposite) and I’m not going to bother addressing this with you any more.
angrysoba: “I’m not so sure that foreign policy should be conducted according to the demands of a Saudi dissident but this seems to be very strongly what you are implying.”
No, I’m saying that crazies like bin Laden tap into some legitimate grievances from Arab/Muslim world and use this resentment for their own agenda. If you eliminate the legitimate grievances then people like bin Laden will find it very hard/impossible to operate because he has neither foot soldiers or civilian populations prepared to offer any support to them.
Bin Laden makes many demands, some outright crazy, others exaggerated, but based on legitimate concerns.
a) Israel now exists, obviously it should be allowed to remain. I don’t advocate genocide/ethnic cleansing of an area to fix the previous ethnic cleansing. However, Israel has been occupying Palestinian territory for 40+ years, and predictably this has upset a large number of people. If Israel withdrew to the pre 67 borders as called on by the UN, HRW, Amnesty etc, then I believe this alone would have the most significant effect of reducing Arab/Muslim hostility towards the US govt.
b) This demand is irrelevant, I don’t think anyone is blowing themselves up over these charges.
c) Like I said previously, this stuff is elementary. If you are unaware of recent US history in the middle east, go do some research.
You said: “Is blowback inevitable in any foreign policy?”
I would argue that yes it is when the foreign policy involves giving crazy religious guys training and weapons while at the same time pissing on the beliefs of said crazy religious guys.
e) I think this complaint would go away for the most of the Arab/Muslim world if the US presence in the middle east wasn’t so hostile in general.
f) The sanctions were truly horrific, and Saddam Hussein bares some responsibility over the whole affair. But the US/UK share a large portion of the blame also. The head of the UN sanctions in Iraq resigned over the overly broad and inhumane scope of the sanctions. Sanctions which blocked basic things needed to survive such as water purifiers. Remember that when asked whether the deaths of half a million children were worth it, Secretary of State Madeleine Albrigh replied “we think the price is worth it”. Is it any wonder large numbers of people were upset by this?
g) I will admit that I didn’t bother reading this far, so I wont address it either =P
In summary, if this US policy took into account some of the legitimate grievances of the Arab/Muslim world, crazies like bin Laden wouldn’t be able to recruit and wouldn’t be able to operate with the consent of civilian populations.