Having complained of people posting off topic, it seems a reasonable solution to give an opportunity for people to discuss the topics I am banning from other threads – of which 9/11 seems the most popular.
I do not believe that the US government, or any of its agencies, were responsible for 9/11. It would just need too many people to be involved. Someone would have objected. There are some strange and dangerous people in America, but not in sufficient concentration for this one. They couldn’t even keep Watergate quiet, and that was a small group. Any group I can think of – even Blackwater – would contain operatives with scruples about blowing up New York. They may be sadly ready to kill people in poor countries, but Americans en masse? Somebody would say it wasn’t a good idea.
I asked a friend in the construction industry what it would take to demolish the twin towers. He replied nine months, 80 men, and 12 miles of cabling. The notion that a small team at night could plant sufficient explosives embedded at key points, is laughable.
The forces of the aircraft impacts must have been amazingly high. I have no difficulty imagining they would bring down the building. As for WTC 7, again the kinetic energy of the collapse of the twin towers must be immense.
I admit to a private speculation about WTC7. Unfortunately in construction it is extremely common for contractors not to fix or install properly all the expensive girders, ties and rebar that are supposed to be enclosed in the concrete. Supervising contractors and municipal inspectors can be corrupt. I recall vividly that in London some years ago a tragedy occurred when a simple gas oven explosion brought down the whole side of a tower block.
The inquiry found that the building contractor had simply omitted the ties that bound the girders at the corners, all encased in concrete. If a gas oven had not blown up, nobody would have found out. Buildings I strongly suspect are very often not as strong as they are supposed to be, with contractors skimping on apparently redundant protection. The sort of sordid thing you might not want too deeply investigated in the event of a national tragedy.
Precisely what happened at the Pentagon I am less sure. There is not the conclusive film and photographic evidence that there is for New York. I am particularly puzzled by the much more skilled feat of flying that would be required to hit a building virtually at ground level, in an urban area, after a lamppost clipping route – very hard to see how a non-professional pilot did that. But I can think of a number of possible scenarios where the official explanation is not quite the whole truth on the Pentagon, but which do not necessitate a belief that the US government or Dick Cheney was behind the attack.
In my view the real scandal of 9/11 was that it was blowback – the product of a malignant terrorist agency whose origins lay in CIA funding and provision. Also blowback in a more general sense that it was spawned in the nasty theocratic dictatorship of Saudi Arabia which is so close to the US and to the Bush dynasty in particular. As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.
But was 9/11 false flag and controlled demolition? No, I think not.
(Now I have given full opportunity to discuss 9/11 here, any further references on other threads will be instantly deleted).
Glen.
Before 9/11 passengers and crew on hijacked aircraft did not normally think that the hijackers might want to use the plane as a kamakaze missile.
No, it is not normal procedure for pilots to give control of the aircraft to a terrorist but do you think that the pilots in this instance had any choice in the matter if two men came up behind them and slit their carotid arteries? People seated in for example a pilots seat are at a disadvantage when attacked from behind, especially if they are not expecting an attack.
I think the passages below form an excellent snap-shot of the current situation with 9/11 research…
Vincent Salandria was perhaps the first JFK researcher to come to believe that the truth of the assassination could be better approached by large-scale considerations than by focusing on details. Here is a brief selection from Gaeton Fonzi’s 1993 book The Last Investigation that vividly expresses this sentiment, which has now been adopted by many researchers:
QUOTE -“By late 1975, when I was beginning work as a Government investigator on the Kennedy assassination, I had not seen or spoken with Vince Salandria for a number of years… I moved to Florida and, because of other demands, found little time to devote to the assassination. But Vince Salandria had become something of a legend among the growing circle of Warren Commission critics. Almost everyone who planned to write a book about the Kennedy assassination first journeyed to Philadelphia to probe Salandria for insights and perspective…
But before starting my new job, I returned to Philadelphia to draw upon Salandria’s vast knowledge of the evidence and get his opinion about the most fruitful areas of investigation. Salandria was most cordial, and we spent a long winter Sunday talking. Yet I sensed a certain balking in his attitude, a feeling of disappointment in what I was about to begin. Eventually, he explained why he was no longer actively involved in pursuing an investigation of the assassination. It gave me a surprising insight into how far Salandria’s thinking had evolved.
“I’m afraid we were misled,” Salandria said sadly. “All the critics, myself included, were misled very early. I see that now. We spent too much time and effort microanalyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy. Don’t you think the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way? They chose not to. Instead, they picked the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner. The cover story was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny. The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear: ‘We are in control and no one — not the President, not Congress, nor any elected official — no one can do anything about it.’ It was a message to the people that their Government was powerless. And the people eventually got the message. Consider what happened since the Kennedy assassination. People see government today as unresponsive to their needs, yet the budget and power of the military and intelligence establishment have increased tremendously.
“The tyranny of power is here. Current events tell us that those who killed Kennedy can only perpetuate their power by promoting social upheaval both at home and abroad. And that will lead not to revolution but repression. I suggest to you, my friend, that the interests of those who killed Kennedy now transcend national boundaries and national priorities. No doubt we are dealing now with an international conspiracy. We must face the fact — not waste any more time microanalyzing the evidence. That’s exactly what they want us to do. They have kept us busy for so long. And I will bet, buddy, that is what will happen to you. They’ll keep you very, very busy and eventually, they’ll wear you down.”
The planes were:
Boston to LA (x2)
Washington DC to LA
Newark to San Fransisco
While a few English people might point to the fact that these were domestic flights we are not, of course, talking about Stansead to Manchester or even Gatwick to Edinburgh.
These planes were flying from East USA to West USA and had large fuel reserves. It is quite likely the hijackers picked planes such as these for that purpose.
Edo,
What you quoted is utter crap.
Besides we’re not talking about JFK. We’re talking about 9/11.
I think Edo’s post above is very insightful and explains why whoever murdered Dr David Kelly did such a bad job at making it look like suicide. They want people who might be tempted to blow the whistle on dark Goverment secrets to know that it could happen to them.
Maybe it also explains why Barak Obama has adopted the right wing corporatist agenda of the Bush administration, he knows that he can be whacked if he disappoints the oligarchs and it all will be explained as the action of a lone member of the KKK.
Thank you angrysoba. From you I’ll take that as a compliment. Those who understand the jist of the quote know exactly why I posted it.
Glenn, once again you twist around the fact for your own purposes.
Why do you always seem to rely on hearsay upon hearsay? Why don’t you just go to the source?
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0409041pdb1.html
Yes, a hijacking was discussed. To gain the release of the blind sheik. You don’t gain the release of the blind sheik by immediately destroying the plane.
If you read the second page of that memo (highly unlikely, of course), you will see that the FBI and the CIA were taking action. No plea for more resources.
If you want to talk about JFK, first read this:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Then find a forum to dicuss it. (Or, perhaps ask Craig if he will make a post on it).
I hope to make a post on JFK at some point on my blog. But I haven’t even craked open Vincent Bugliosi’s tome yet.
“Thank you angrysoba. From you I’ll take that as a compliment. Those who understand the jist of the quote know exactly why I posted it.”
In other words you’re being willfully obscure and think that by not explaining what you mean makes you very profound.
Great! Welcome to World of the Strange…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS7XfsT0bxw
“In other words you’re being willfully obscure and think that by not explaining what you mean makes you very profound.”
I know exactly what Edo means. And no, I’m not going to spell it out for you.
Frank,
What’s your response to the fact that the verinage demolition technique exists?
Do you even have a response?
Should the French and Belgians immediately stop using such a technique because the demolition will stop midway?
“Maybe it also explains why Barak Obama has adopted the right wing corporatist agenda of the Bush administration, he knows that he can be whacked if he disappoints the oligarchs and it all will be explained as the action of a lone member of the KKK. ”
This is rubbish! Barack Obama has had to become more mainstream for the same reasons that Clinton had to become more mainstream. Not because he was scared of being whacked but because of simple political expediency.
When JFK was assassinated, his successor turned out to be one of the most liberal, big-spending civil-rights endorsing presidents that the United States has ever had. He was an uber-Kennedy which commpletely undercuts the nonsense that the “Deep-state” had JFK whacked.
And if someone does take a shot at the President, it will likely believe some right-wing nutter screaming about FEMA camps and telling everyone to google building 7.
Frank,
By the way, you forgot about all the jet fuel. Don’t you think that should be a factor? Do you know how much energy was contained in the fuel?
In any event, you’ll always be able to point out a demolition gone wrong, which means that ninja warriors entered the World Trade Center prior to Sept. 11.
Apparently placing squibs by the windows. No reason, really. Just because.
But wouldn’t all those folks with windowed offices at some point notice the ninja warriors placing squibs?
Larry, this is for you:
http://angrysoba.blogspot.com/2010/01/silly-goose-tony-gosling-on-77-bombings.html
Angrysoba,
I have some relevant personal experience with the Towers – I closed two deals down there. Dozens and dozens of lawyers and even more support staff running around – that kind of thing. Well into the night. I slept for a few hours on a couch in a conference room. Not at night, but in the day, as I had been up all night.
I was also smoking like a chimney back then, and it caused some real problems for me. In any other building, I could just zip down, have a quick smoke, and zip right back up without anyone noticing if I did it right. At the WTC, that was not possible. Besides the two elevator banks, I also had to deal with WTC security every time. So if I went down to have a smoke (which was sadly unavoidable), I had to make sure that a support person at our hosting law firm would take a call from security to let me back up. In other words, every time I went back in, I had to go through the same procedure as an entirely new entrant.
In Truther world, such procedures didn’t exist, or the bomb teams were also ninja warriors, or something else inspired by the movies, or whatever.
Larry,
I don’t have so much experience but when I was about thirteen or fourteen I went to New York and went up to the top of one of the Twin Towers.
On the same trip I went to Washington D.C as my uncle was serving there as a liason officer in the British army. This was the first time I ever heard about the war of 1812 and remember being amused to hear that us Limeys beat the Americans in a war.
I can’t remember much about my trip to the Twin Towers. I can’t even remember how long it took to go up in the elevator.
I think I may have said, “Look at all those people down there! They look like ants!”
And my dad saying, “They are ants, we haven’t gone up the elevator yet!”
Talking about Ninja warriors:
“Councillor Yukihisa Fujita provided a stunning presentation to the National Diet of Japan. Now Asahi Weekly (circulation 268,000) has just published a four-page article with the headline “9/11, Terror in NYC ?” American Architects Group Demands Reinvestigation!”
In provocative contrast with the United States, whose major media outlets and legislative body won’t touch the issue with a 30-foot steel column, Japan is now asking serious questions about how exactly the World Trade Center buildings were destroyed, and who was responsible for the attacks. And who can blame them? Twenty-four innocent citizens of Japan were killed in the terrorist atrocity of 9/11, and their deaths (together with the deaths of the citizens of more than ninety countries who perished on 9/11) pose real questions that require real answers.
“Asahi” means “morning sun” in Japanese. That the Asahi Shimbun (the national newspaper with a daily circulation of over eight million ?” making it one of the largest newspapers on our planet).”
http://tinyurl.com/ninja-warrior
Angrysoba,
Yeah, it was you and those damn Canadians. And you burned the capitol! The capitol!
(I’ll let you handle what few Japanese folks are asking questions about the WTC. I betcha not many more than were in that sarin gas cult.)
The verinage demolition technique involves, simply, detatching a buildings vertical supports from their supported structures by forcing them out of position lateraly.
Proposing something similar could have occured in each of the WTC towers rapid collapses, would immediately be unusual since there is no reference to such an effect in any of the official reports.
Basicaly, if the steel cores of the towers were strong and rigid enough to have carried enough laterial force, from the impact site to their fixings at lower floors, they would certainly have the strength to remain sticking up in the sky after a resulting collapse of the rest of the structure.
Edo,
The Vincent Salandria quote was great:
“Salandria said sadly. “All the critics, myself included, were misled very early. I see that now. We spent too much time and effort microanalyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy. Don’t you think the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way? They chose not to. Instead, they picked the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner. The cover story was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny. The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear: ‘We are in control and no one — not the President, not Congress, nor any elected official — no one can do anything about it.’ It was a message to the people that their Government was powerless. And the people eventually got the message.”
– That was the message I got when i watched the room full of assorted reporters watching a video of a man who was claimed to be OBL yet looked nothing like OBL, all act as they couldnt really see the difference.
Great posts from Vronsky and others too.
AngrySoba,
You could confuse your understanding of newtonian mechanics even more, if you could upgrade your bowling ball to a car battery, and sheets of paper to cobwebs 😛
Clark – I really appreciate the fourmilab and noosphere links last night thanks, im going to let myself be distracted 🙂
Mark Golding,
This is garbage. Almost no one in Japan believes that 9/11 was an inside job.
There’s a woman called Yumi Kikuchi who believes in UFOs and that John Lennon was killed by the CIA who also advises Yukihisa Fujita that 9/11 was an inside job. Between them they also managed to get Richard Gage to come to Japan and have a slideshow. I met Gage twice while he was here and Yumi Kikuchi too.
A while back there was a left-wing newspaper called the jinmin shinbun (People’s Newspaper) that believed that 9/11 was an inside job which hosted David Ray Griffin in a debate. But Griffin was so completely demolished in the debate that the editors of the paper, who had previously supported Griffin, realized he was full of shit and dropped their endorsement of him.
William Rodriguez came here too.
There are a few Japanese who are interested in the subject but most of those who I know are debunkers.
There is a university called Tsukuba in which the structural engineering faculty disagrees with the mechanism of collapse that NIST describes but agrees that 19 guys hijacked planes and flew them into buildings.
Good luck with your revolution anyway!
“The verinage demolition technique involves, simply, detatching a buildings vertical supports from their supported structures by forcing them out of position lateraly.
Proposing something similar could have occured in each of the WTC towers rapid collapses, would immediately be unusual since there is no reference to such an effect in any of the official reports.”
So it doesn’t matter that there were visible tilts which show those blocks of ten or more stories came loose at their moorings?
“AngrySoba,
You could confuse your understanding of newtonian mechanics even more, if you could upgrade your bowling ball to a car battery, and sheets of paper to cobwebs :P”
Who cares?
If you know what happened to the Towers that aren’t described in reputable engineering journals then how about you write a report explaining exactly what happened to those towers or finding someone who can and then submit them to such publications?
I mean, I know your level of physics and engineering would allow you to do that, right?
Or is there some international conspiracy that will prevent you even getting your work published by Pyongyang University Press?
Mark,
One more thing.
You know the Mormons?
Let’s say that this year they convince 1 million Japanese people to be Mormoms. Won’t remotely happen of course, but let’s just say.
1 million more Japanese people believing in the Mormon myth does not in any way increase the likelihood that Jesus traveled from the Levant to America in a wooden submarine.
You understand that, right?
That being said, Mark Golding, Steven Jones does believe that Jesus came here on a submarine. And he believes that he can prove it, just like he believes thermite was planted in the Towers.
“”Asahi” means “morning sun” in Japanese. That the Asahi Shimbun (the national newspaper with a daily circulation of over eight million ?” making it one of the largest newspapers on our planet).””
So what?
Hang on a minute…
“AngrySoba,
You could confuse your understanding of newtonian mechanics even more, if you could upgrade your bowling ball to a car battery, and sheets of paper to cobwebs :P”
How does Newtonian mechanics change depending on whether we’re talking about bowling balls or car batteries?
You Truthers are so full of shit! Who the fuck do you think you impress? Your own narcissistic selves?
Edo: Excellent quote from Vincent Salandria, and that is precisely the point. There’ll be plenty of people who’ll call you a “conspiracy loon” should you postulate that JFK (or Robert Kennedy, or Dr. King) was not killed by a lone nut. The True believer will stand back with hands on hips, demanding you prove (to their satisfaction) exactly who did the assassination and how, and call you all sorts of names, and scoff and snicker all the while.
Likewise, I get asked (here) to explain precisely how the WTC buildings were demolished, and what happened to the real plane (and passengers) if it didn’t hit the Pentagon. Instead of playing silly games, I need only reply that the Official Story is entirely unbelievable, so the Official Story clearly needs a lot of work. It’s not my onus to prove an alternative theory if I doubt theirs. Indeed, anyone who accepts the testimony of Bush and his henchmen as being the untrammeled truth has a level of credulity of which a Scientologist could only dream.
I think this thread has proved very well that – far from the raving “loons” the True Believers would have us 9/11 sceptics portrayed – we simply have a lot of very good questions and observations that cannot be brushed off with hand-waving explanations and insults.
What “testimony of Bush”?
Glenn –
Look at this picture of the ValuJet crash and tell me where the plane is:
http://www.cnn.com/EVENTS/1996/year.in.review/us/valujet/valujet.html