Having complained of people posting off topic, it seems a reasonable solution to give an opportunity for people to discuss the topics I am banning from other threads – of which 9/11 seems the most popular.
I do not believe that the US government, or any of its agencies, were responsible for 9/11. It would just need too many people to be involved. Someone would have objected. There are some strange and dangerous people in America, but not in sufficient concentration for this one. They couldn’t even keep Watergate quiet, and that was a small group. Any group I can think of – even Blackwater – would contain operatives with scruples about blowing up New York. They may be sadly ready to kill people in poor countries, but Americans en masse? Somebody would say it wasn’t a good idea.
I asked a friend in the construction industry what it would take to demolish the twin towers. He replied nine months, 80 men, and 12 miles of cabling. The notion that a small team at night could plant sufficient explosives embedded at key points, is laughable.
The forces of the aircraft impacts must have been amazingly high. I have no difficulty imagining they would bring down the building. As for WTC 7, again the kinetic energy of the collapse of the twin towers must be immense.
I admit to a private speculation about WTC7. Unfortunately in construction it is extremely common for contractors not to fix or install properly all the expensive girders, ties and rebar that are supposed to be enclosed in the concrete. Supervising contractors and municipal inspectors can be corrupt. I recall vividly that in London some years ago a tragedy occurred when a simple gas oven explosion brought down the whole side of a tower block.
The inquiry found that the building contractor had simply omitted the ties that bound the girders at the corners, all encased in concrete. If a gas oven had not blown up, nobody would have found out. Buildings I strongly suspect are very often not as strong as they are supposed to be, with contractors skimping on apparently redundant protection. The sort of sordid thing you might not want too deeply investigated in the event of a national tragedy.
Precisely what happened at the Pentagon I am less sure. There is not the conclusive film and photographic evidence that there is for New York. I am particularly puzzled by the much more skilled feat of flying that would be required to hit a building virtually at ground level, in an urban area, after a lamppost clipping route – very hard to see how a non-professional pilot did that. But I can think of a number of possible scenarios where the official explanation is not quite the whole truth on the Pentagon, but which do not necessitate a belief that the US government or Dick Cheney was behind the attack.
In my view the real scandal of 9/11 was that it was blowback – the product of a malignant terrorist agency whose origins lay in CIA funding and provision. Also blowback in a more general sense that it was spawned in the nasty theocratic dictatorship of Saudi Arabia which is so close to the US and to the Bush dynasty in particular. As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.
But was 9/11 false flag and controlled demolition? No, I think not.
(Now I have given full opportunity to discuss 9/11 here, any further references on other threads will be instantly deleted).
“Best quote of the thread:
“Salandria said sadly. “All the critics, myself included, were misled very early. I see that now. We spent too much time and effort microanalyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy. Don’t you think the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way? They chose not to. Instead, they picked the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner. The cover story was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny. The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear: ‘We are in control and no one — not the President, not Congress, nor any elected official — no one can do anything about it.’ It was a message to the people that their Government was powerless. And the people eventually got the message.””
Agreed!
Mike Ruppert said much the same thing about 9/11 in 2003 and warned that discussing the physical evidence would lead nowhere. The State has to go after people of interest with subpoena power, interrogation under oath, getouttajailfree cards and the entire RICO playbook. But if the State itself is the criminal, it is not going to investigate itself short of regime change. The primary proof that 9/11 was an inside job is that it happened, period. The secondary proof is that it has never been properly investigated. Everybody knows this instinctively even if they don’t all grasp it intellectually. And many people have become mentally unbalanced, sick at heart or twisted because despite their instinctive knowlege, they can’t consciously acknowledge it. And the more people deny the truth, the sicker they get.
Still, I like talking about the possible mechanism for the destruction of the WTC in the same way I like talking about whether there was a big bang or why did marsupials and placentals both evolve bears, wolves, rats and cats. It has no bearing on who did 9-11. Steelback’s got a point there.
Steelback presents a few lofty lines on history and principles, and follows them with an summarised b-grade link which directs all responsability towards Jews. A ruse.
And the prize for
‘Most Obsessed with 9/11’
goes to Larry & Soba
with half of all comments on this thread.
————————————-
angrysoba,
I cannot understand what your motive is, here or on your own blog. I can understand those who doubt the official explanations of terror events; they need to have the anomalies cleared, because they see that a terrible crime may have been committed – a crime far worse than attacks by foreign agents, and with ominous consequences. But if you are so sure you know the answers and that the official explanations are true, why don’t you just get on with your life, like much of the populace, believing that our leaders are properly taking care of matters?
Or is it simply an intellectual exercise for you, in sourcing evidence and refuting claims? But, if that is so, why do you, as you said on another thread, “finally get fed up and start hurling abuse”, which suggests you have emotional involvement?
Clark, thanks (1113pm). Richard (Robinson)(145am), I didn’t know about the Brazilian general – an intriguing account, I appreciate you letting me know about it.
Btw, as a point of curious interest and maybe to lighten things up a bit (because life really is too short), around the late 1990s/ early 2000s a small fiction publisher based in Glasgow, Scotland was established called Neil Wilson Publishing and they put out a fiction imprint called, ’11/9′ (this was some time before ‘9/11’, of course). The publisher used to be based – at that time – in The Pentagon Building, Washington Street, Glasgow (someone in the City Council, or elsewhere, must have had a sense of humour). We used to joke about their address whenever I bumped into them – they’ve put out some good material over the years and I see they’re still around: http://www.nwp.co.uk
“The steel lost it’s integrity? You are beginning to sound like the Global Warming Alarmists who now that the Arctic ice cap has made a comeback are calling it “rotten ice”.
How, prey tell, did the steel lose its integrity?”
It became soft. Less able to hold up the weight ablove it.
Watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rbfLLp7rBI&feature=player_embedded
“Did it, indeed? I admit that the sentence does give me some mental images. But it’s hardly nobel-prize-winning sciencespeak, is it.”
Oh, you want nobel-prize sciencespeak now do you?
Strangely enough, I thought you might permit regular metaphoricalspeak like the rest of us and didn’t think you needn’t my help to produce in you mental images.
“No I wouldn’t. If you can’t wrap your head around the principle of the conservation of momentum, then all your hard work on trying to explain “how the towers fell” will have been in vain.
Not only do you seem to be remarkably ignorant of physics, you are also ignornant of your own ignorance.”
I think I’m detecting some bluster and projection on your part. You’re quite happy with the notion that about 99 percent of structural engineers around the world couldn’t get their physics O levels but you’re applying your physics knowledge correectly.
Thing is Truthers dutifully parrot the old “conservation of momentum” mantra but it is no good if you can’t explain exactly how you are applying it to the collapse of the world trade center.
If you can, well…that really would be nobelsciencespeak.
” The block disintegrated in mid-air”
No, it did not. You’re making that up.
“But we’re only doing a bit of hyperthetical speculation. None of us on this thread really knows what went on (apart from yourself, perhaps) and none of us are going to do much about it,”
So, the Truthers are just poseurs with no plans to do anything about their special knowledge.
Right, that’s that established then.
“Steelback presents a few lofty lines on history and principles, and follows them with an summarised b-grade link which directs all responsability towards Jews”.
Crab, I must correct you. He provides a link that returns a page with the message: “The blog you were looking for was not found”
“I cannot understand what your motive is, here or on your own blog. I can understand those who doubt the official explanations of terror events; they need to have the anomalies cleared”
And I’m trying to clear them up. If people have questions, why shouldn’t someone answer them expecially when the claims are so easily cleared up. “Why weren’t the hijackers on the manifests?” etc…
“Or is it simply an intellectual exercise for you, in sourcing evidence and refuting claims? But, if that is so, why do you, as you said on another thread, “finally get fed up and start hurling abuse”, which suggests you have emotional involvement?”
If someone seems to have their fingers in their ears it annoys me. Especially, after patiently explaining something I’m having my explanations deliberatly twisted or if that person goes back to making exactly the same claim after being shown it is demonstrably false.
I was annoyed when MJ asked me to find evidence of funerals and body parts of passengers at the Pentagon and wouldn’t accept newspaper reports of funerals.
Larry,
“the very vibrant anti-war movement wants nothing to do with you”
In another thread I asked you respectfully after you declared yourself as a lawyer, your speciality. I was interested in you. You failed to answer – a simple yes/no.
People here have read your comments elsewhere when you tried hard to vilify Craig, your host, and blacken his reputation. This, to a genuine humanitarian, a man, one in a million, a former ambassador of my country willing to stake his reputation for the anti-establishment anti-war movement.
Then you mention the New York Fire Department in a single bullet list.
Brave men who are suffering today from the effects of 9/11.
Here later, I am going to tell people about these brave men, how they suffered, and what their experiences were on that sad, traumatic and catastrophic day. Many legal disputes are still in the legal law process 9 years on.
I am no ‘truther’ as you say 19 Arabs crashed planes, but something is wrong with the analysis, something that propels many professional, intelligent men and women including military personnel, reject the official account as it stands, without the detail of a public inquiry, that the families of loved ones lost and dying have called for. You Larry, by your clib comments are in a small way preventing that inquiry.
Myself, I believe gross incompetence occurred on that day, one event, as witnessed by a young American, who was stood next to Cheney watching the track of an attack on the Pentagon and Cheney did zilch. Subsequently Norman Mineta’s testimony was ignored.
You are a man of straw Larry and I stand by my harsh comments.
“Mike Ruppert said much the same thing about 9/11 in 2003 and warned that discussing the physical evidence would lead nowhere.”
Do you think cops do that when investigating a crime? Pretty dumb if they do.
“The primary proof that 9/11 was an inside job is that it happened, period.”
With that kind of logic I would suggest some different reading matter.
“The secondary proof is that it has never been properly investigated.”
According to you. Besides, you do forget the fact that CYA is an important factor in some people not wanting to look at some things.
“Everybody knows this instinctively even if they don’t all grasp it intellectually. And many people have become mentally unbalanced, sick at heart or twisted because despite their instinctive knowlege, they can’t consciously acknowledge it. And the more people deny the truth, the sicker they get.”
LOL!!!!1!
Mentally unbalanced unlike, say, David Icke, David Shayler, Jimmy Walters, Alex Jones or Sean Fitzgerald?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tmLZRFXQ48
Or Kevin Barret, Charlie Sheen, Judy Wood etc…
The very vibrant anti-war movement
wants nothing to do with you
In another thread I asked you respectfully
after you declared yourself as a lawyer, your speciality. I was interested in
you. You failed to answer – a simple yes/no.
People here have read your comments
elsewhere when you tried hard to vilify Craig, your host, and blacken his
reputation. This, to a genuine humanitarian, a man, one in a million, a former
ambassador of my country willing to stake his reputation for the anti-establishment
anti-war movement.
Then you mention the New York Fire
Department in a single bullet list.
Brave men who are suffering today from the
effects of 9/11.
Here later, I am going to tell people about
these brave men, how they suffered, and what their experiences were on that
sad, traumatic and catastrophic day. Many legal disputes are still in the legal
law process 9 years on.
I am no ‘truther’ as you say 19 Arabs
crashed planes, but something is wrong with the analysis, something that propels
many professional, intelligent men and women including military personnel,
reject the official account as it stands, without the detail of a public
inquiry, that the families of loved ones lost and dying have called for. You
Larry, by your glib comments are in a small way preventing that inquiry.
Myself, I believe gross incompetence
occurred on that day, one event, as witnessed by a young American, who was
stood next to Cheney watching the track of an attack on the Pentagon and Cheney
did zilch. Subsequently Norman Mineta?s testimony was ignored.
You are a man of straw Larry and I stand by
my harsh comments.
” was annoyed when MJ asked me to find evidence of funerals and body parts of passengers at the Pentagon and wouldn’t accept newspaper reports of funerals”.
Now now, you know full well I didn’t ask you to find evidence, only to let me know if you came across any. You also know full well that the reports you provided could not possibly have been of funerals because they referred to the weekend immediately after 911. Clearly not enough time to complete the identification process using DNA, which we know wasn’t completed until November 16.
“I believe gross incompetence occurred on that day, one event, as witnessed by a young American, who was stood next to Cheney watching the track of an attack on the Pentagon and Cheney did zilch. Subsequently Norman Mineta’s testimony was ignored”.
Mark: it is most charitable of you to describe this as incompetence. I for one interpret it as Cheney doing his job. This, by default, is the much-rumoured stand-down order, plain for all to see.
MJ
A stand down is for sure. Soon I hope to fall on the side of truth regarding 9/11, but I am in the middle of a complicated (if it was planned it took 2, 3 or more years) unravelling, including decryption.
Scientists and others are looking again at the forces involved, especially after the analysis of ‘Ground Zero dust’
“Judy Wood etc…”
Actually, I’ll take that back about Judy Wood.
I like her website and Star Wars laser beams is probably no more silly than most of the inside job claims.
Angrysoba – that’s right, and she’s got a PhD, and she was/is a professor, so there’s gotta be something to her directed energy weapons!
(at least as good as every other truther claim)
Yep, here’s someone who’s got his read right according to Tim:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ccX_PQtlMY&feature=related
Tim wrote:
“Yes, there was a tilt. Especially in the case of the South Tower there was a very pronounced tilt of the upper block. But then a funny thing happened. The block disintegrated in mid-air, dissapating it angular momentum in the process, much to the chagrin of all those engineers and physicists who are trying to explain the collapses without using some kind of demolition technique. Because 10-storey blocks of steel-framed building don’t normally do that.”
Tim, this is cartoonish!
1. Where did you get the idea that the angular momentum of the collapsing floors dissipated? Why wasn’t that observed in the verinage videos? Why wasn’t that observed in any of your videos? It’s as if you expected around 3/4 of each tower to remain standing as the floors above the plane impact level did what – just blow away? Am I getting that right? You expected the top floors to disappear like ghosts in some form of whispering essence?
2. Once again you ignore all the jet fuel.
Do you understand that the planes came into the buildings with thousands and thousands of gallons of jet fuel?
“”Then you won’t mind re-posting the video of the audible explosions.”
Right after Larry posts documentation and still photos of “the head”.”
Again, you’re just sick. First you wanted newspaper articles. Now you want stills of my friend’s head.
Then you’ll show us evidence of audible explosions?
First, obviously the two have nothing to do with one another. angrysoba and I certainly seem friendly to one another, but we don’t know each other, so we’re hardly a team. Plus, THE TWO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ONE ANOTHER.
Second, you’re obviously a very sick person.
Third, there might be some good reason for me to hold back any more information about a victim on 911 on a public forum (especially with people like you and the JOOOOO-haters around – and that includes people that I’m convinced are potential terrorists, like Apostate)
Fourth, I never claimed to have the evidence you were looking for. You’ve pestered me for evidence of a dead friend – but do you think I ever looked to find evidence of my dead friend? If you have a friend die, do you thereafter look on the Internet in case you have to prove it some day?
But YOU are claiming to have evidence of audible explosions at the WTC. You mentioned videos. You claim to be holding them back in a bizarre, twisted childish game.
Actually, I’m not interested in your links, and I imagine angrysoba isn’t as well. There were no audible explosions at the WTC. We know that videos have been doctored to add them in, but that’s simply because the people who have sold you the conspiracy are frauds, but that’s nothing new.
Just to keep angrylarry fully exercised, I should point out that there are other fuses smouldering along towards the keg of gunpowder his fat arse is parked upon.
tinyurl.com/yhgeeh2
Vronsky, that makes no sense.
Evidently this site is now listed as gamer/Mossad-penetrated at Bob Goldman’s leftgatekeeper.com
Doesn’t it show.Contributions to this thread in particular have given precedence to Zionist or elite-subsidized dissidents who forward the establishment left’s agenda of ideological warfare against conspiracy researchers.
When conspiracists get through the censor their contributions to the thread are usually telling.
I was struck by Steelback’s 4 step research method,the link re-Dov Zackheim’s role in 9/11 and those provided to the work of Kevin MacDonald on the Franfurt School and Christopher Bollyn’s output.
Following Goldman’s tracking vigilance procedure that involved my having to read the interminably puerile contributions from the likes of Larry from St Louis and angrysober and numerous others whose agenda was patently on the disinformation/psy-ops track I found that the most important links were being systematically erased.
It seems to be the case that once the Zionists get a site in their grip they begin to call the shots.Most left-gatekeepers are terrified by the prospect of being fingered as having hosted any material deemed critical of Israel or the history of the Lobby that might be labelled “antisemitic”.
The distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism gets conveniently lost due to this typically leftist loss of nerve.Hence topics like the Holocaust or Jewish involvement in 9/11 are not well covered on such sites.
Gamers and psy-ops are given free rein by these hosts whose sites inevitably succumb to Zionist pressure and moderate out the better researched contributions to the discussion.
This is clearly the case here where another ostensibly cutting edge anti-establishment site has ended up acting as a cypher for corporate media disinformation.
Goldman found that such sites infected terminally as they are by the tapeworm of Zionist propaganda soon received fewer hits and lost ground to the genuine anti-Zionist or conspiracy sites.
Goldman’s research on left-gatekeeper sites is here:
http://questionsquestions.net/topic/leftgatekeepers.html
Out of courtesy to Craig – and anyone interested:
Not wishing to further increase the round-and-round-in-circles futility of 500 odd comments and counting, I’ve joined ‘Nobody’ with a separate blog post on this.
Goldman seems to have identified sites that soon after go the way of all flesh!
The vast majority seem to have been Foundation-funded and their sponsors will have returned to backing more middle ground mainstream output after they crashed.
Rest assured the best trail-blazing sites retain remarkable energy and staying power probably because there’s such a treasure trove of material out there that’s never been subjected to the proper scrutiny by professional researchers free from Foundation strings-attached funding.
For research resources Tragedy and Hope takes some beating.Named after Carol Quigley’s magnum opus it’s replete with trailblazing often censored material on elite NWO planning.Check out Propaganda Matrix too.
Both these sites retain message boards where real discussion and engagement are highly valued.
Proud, Craig?
You tried hard Lamby. Despite getting nowhere Craig will be proud of you. Chin up my son. 😉
Larry,
Let’s get a discussion going on the open paper by Niels H. Harrit, The Open Chemical Physics Journal
Volume 2
ISSN: 1874-4125
without condemning the author
What are your views
I am interested.
tungsten
You ran with my theme of the specific NY provenance of 911 being a clue to the atrocity’s true authorship.
Reference was also made to landholdings and real estate in NY generally and at the WTC specifically.Larry Silverstein (Moschepoche) was landlord at WTC 7.It was the CIA station and various Enron tax record documents-the smoking gun of the operation.
On the history of false-flag terrorism in Italy during the 1970s the work of Sanguinetti and Guy de Bord’s Society of the Spectacle is particularly relevant.Sanguinetti made the point that recourse to false-flag terror on the part of elites as means to control domestic populations becomes increasingly addictive.
The more threatened they feel the more inclined they are to up the ante.
Mark, we already started discussing that with the laughable claim of planted thermite. As I asked above, where’s the splatter or drip pattern on any of the columns?