Having complained of people posting off topic, it seems a reasonable solution to give an opportunity for people to discuss the topics I am banning from other threads – of which 9/11 seems the most popular.
I do not believe that the US government, or any of its agencies, were responsible for 9/11. It would just need too many people to be involved. Someone would have objected. There are some strange and dangerous people in America, but not in sufficient concentration for this one. They couldn’t even keep Watergate quiet, and that was a small group. Any group I can think of – even Blackwater – would contain operatives with scruples about blowing up New York. They may be sadly ready to kill people in poor countries, but Americans en masse? Somebody would say it wasn’t a good idea.
I asked a friend in the construction industry what it would take to demolish the twin towers. He replied nine months, 80 men, and 12 miles of cabling. The notion that a small team at night could plant sufficient explosives embedded at key points, is laughable.
The forces of the aircraft impacts must have been amazingly high. I have no difficulty imagining they would bring down the building. As for WTC 7, again the kinetic energy of the collapse of the twin towers must be immense.
I admit to a private speculation about WTC7. Unfortunately in construction it is extremely common for contractors not to fix or install properly all the expensive girders, ties and rebar that are supposed to be enclosed in the concrete. Supervising contractors and municipal inspectors can be corrupt. I recall vividly that in London some years ago a tragedy occurred when a simple gas oven explosion brought down the whole side of a tower block.
The inquiry found that the building contractor had simply omitted the ties that bound the girders at the corners, all encased in concrete. If a gas oven had not blown up, nobody would have found out. Buildings I strongly suspect are very often not as strong as they are supposed to be, with contractors skimping on apparently redundant protection. The sort of sordid thing you might not want too deeply investigated in the event of a national tragedy.
Precisely what happened at the Pentagon I am less sure. There is not the conclusive film and photographic evidence that there is for New York. I am particularly puzzled by the much more skilled feat of flying that would be required to hit a building virtually at ground level, in an urban area, after a lamppost clipping route – very hard to see how a non-professional pilot did that. But I can think of a number of possible scenarios where the official explanation is not quite the whole truth on the Pentagon, but which do not necessitate a belief that the US government or Dick Cheney was behind the attack.
In my view the real scandal of 9/11 was that it was blowback – the product of a malignant terrorist agency whose origins lay in CIA funding and provision. Also blowback in a more general sense that it was spawned in the nasty theocratic dictatorship of Saudi Arabia which is so close to the US and to the Bush dynasty in particular. As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.
But was 9/11 false flag and controlled demolition? No, I think not.
(Now I have given full opportunity to discuss 9/11 here, any further references on other threads will be instantly deleted).
Clark,
You’re really just a conspiracy theorizing loon yourself, aren’t you?
“but it’s quite telling that you can easily gloss over such hatred.”
The only reason you’re here, Larry, is to look for such hatred — and try to link it to Craig. It’s been your mission from day one. You bore everyone to tears in the process. You’re a nincompoop who has proved nothing in relation to 9/11, and whose main interest is Jews. Jew-hatred. Zionism. Zionism-hatred. Israel. Hatred of Israel. Blah blah blah. Megaphone personified.
Fly away and do something useful. You haven’t succeeded in smearing Craig, which was, and is, your primary purpose here.
You’re really just a conspiracy theorizing loon yourself, aren’t you?
Posted by: angrysoba
says the idiot who believes the official conspiracy theory. My my my … try growing up.
test
“and whose main interest is Jews.”
No, your fellow conspiracy loons keep bringing up the Jews. They can’t help themselves. And Craig should both take note of the kind of people that he attracts and the comments on this site that he won’t delete.
Hey Larry
You in bed by now.E’body bin a’callin’ yer agin’ here on Massa Craig.Dem sayin’ you ain’t nothin’but a no good numbskull wot tryna git Massa Craig shut down cossa all dem ‘spiricists anna anti-semis.
Looks like you bout as popular as a bacon sandwich atta Bar Mitzvah boy!
Yo wife confidin’ in me all der wile you bin gon.She say you an’der B’nai B’rith and Moss Bros done fo’ yo’ marriage coz she ’bout had nuff,Larry.I mean yoo ain’t hardly here in St Louis no more what wit spending time wid angri an’techni,oilman,an’dat guy got crabs.
Issa over,Larry we don’ min’if yer stay away all a time now cossa ebody roun’ here fed right up wit payin’ taxes anna helpin’ Izreel fitin’ all dem wars and fooling wid all dem false flag 911-type attack onna innocent people.
Ebody know dat Al Ciada jus’a load ol’ Jews and disinfo guys like you ana angri dresst up look like Lawrence Arabia-nobody gon’fall for it no mo’,Larry so you best jussa quit cossa da game issa up,right now.
You jussa tryin’ do Massa Craig outta hissa new job on da web.Hell you worsa dan dat Jack Straw guy!
P.S.We sittin’ onna porch now gettin’ thru yo’Bobon whiskey big time!
Cheers,Larry!
Seven-five percent (75%) of the occupants of the four planes that crashed with no survivors were connected to the Pentagon.
It has been suggested to me by persons unknown (for now) in military circles that all these men and women might have had some evidence (and thus potential whistle-blowers) of the technology used to fly unmanned planes.
Further investigations are ongoing with emphasise on the following companies:
Boeing
Raytheon
Northrop Grumman
XonTech
Vrendenburg
BAE Systems
Metrocall
Mark, those are stupid claims, and you’re a sick person. You clearly have a problem distinguishing between reality and your fantasies.
“potential whistle-blowers”
Red herring, I think, because (a) that whistle got blown anyway and (b) depending on how you define ‘connected to’ there might be nothing surprising in the 75% figure. In my home town of about 20,000 population it was said that everyone either worked for Singer or was related to someone who did, and it was true.
The planes *had* to be remote controlled as, given that the buildings were already mined, it couldn’t be left to the dubious skills of such as Hani Hanjour to hit them.
Shame UA93 was 40 minutes late on take-off and therefore had to be downed (it would have been downright embarrassing if it had got to WTC7 after all that time).
@Mark Golding: “…the technology used to fly unmanned planes…”
Reading that, I thought of Rabbi Dov Zakheim. These are some bits I picked up about him on a search:
Dov Zakheim’s was CEO of SPS International, part of System Planning Corporation, a defense contractor majoring in electronic warfare technologies, including remote-controlled aircraft systems, and the notorious Flight Termination System (FTS) technology that could hijack even a hijacked plane and land or crash it wherever.
SPS subsidiary, Tridata Corporation, oversaw the investigation of the first ?terrorist? attack on the World Trade Center in 1993. (This would have given them intimate knowledge of the security systems and structural blueprints of the World Trade Center.)
Zakheim was appointed as Undersecretary of Defense and Comptroller of the Pentagon by President Bush in May 2001.
Zakheim is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and, in 2000, was a co-author of the Project for the New American Century?s position paper, ‘Rebuilding America?s Defenses’.
In May 2004, Zakheim took a position at Booz Allen Hamilton, one of the most prestigious strategy consulting firms in the world. Booz Allen’s core business is contractual work completed on behalf of the US federal government, foremost on defense and homeland security matters, with limited engagements of foreign governments specific to U.S. military assistance programs.
Booz Allen Hamilton is now majority owned by private equity firm The Carlyle Group,
I came across this too:
“The first plane that went into the towers passed over Indian Point nuclear power station, on the Hudson river just north of the New York City suburbs. The alleged “al-Qaeda” is described as wanting to do as much murder and mayhem as possible, yet chose to avoid a target that would have caused unbelievable devastation (how would all of New York city, or New England, be permanently evacuated?).”
http://www.oilempire.us/remote.html
And this:
“The public’s reluctance to question official doctrine on this matter is a symptom of the societal role for which most of us have been bred and trained: to be ever-faithful hounds, tails thumping the floor as we contentedly slurp the hand of class authority. Such credulity also becomes inevitable when the alternative is so unbearable: if someone in Bush’s position is capable of lying to us about something as huge, as gut-wrenchingly horrible as 9/11, then everything we believe about this country – about the nature of civilization itself-might just be childish nonsense.
Most people simply don’t have the guts to go there. Given a desperate enough need to sustain the childish belief in government-as-benevolent-father, a person will adapt that belief to any circumstance. The behavioral end result can resemble courage; indeed, we are taught to regard it as the DEFINITION of courage. Actually, it’s one of cowardice’s darkest moments. Even a casual examination of Nazi Germany, where this phenomenon was rampant, will drive this point home.”
http://911truth.wetpaint.com/page/Zacheim
The point about the nuclear power station in New York not being targeted is interesting in the light of T Blair’s justifications at Chilcot.
“The point about this terrorist act was that over 3,000 people had been killed on the streets of New York, an absolutely horrific event, but this is what really changed my perception of risk, the calculus of risk for me: if those people, inspired by this religious fanaticism could have killed 30,000, they would have.”
“The point about this act in New York was that, had they been able to kill even more people than those 3,000, they would have, and so, after that time, my view was you could not take risks with this issue at all, and one dimension of it, because we were advised, obviously, that these people would use chemical or biological weapons or a nuclear device, if they could get hold of them – that completely changed our assessment of where the risks for security lay,..”
http://www.iraqinquiry.org.uk/media/43909/100129-blair.pdf
“It has been suggested to me by persons unknown (for now) in military circles that all these men and women might have had some evidence (and thus potential whistle-blowers) of the technology used to fly unmanned planes.”
Yeah, and I have read on the Internet that the people who jumped from the Twin Towers were in fact “whistleblowers” being thrown out one by one.
WHY?
Well, to stop them from talking obviously!
If you think that sounds utterly insane then you now know how I feel when reading the nonsense that resident Miss Marples such as Mark Golding and anyone who links to “oilempire” spout.
Seriously, do you really consider this garbage to be “research”?
angrysoba,
The oilempire link is about the nuclear power station on the Hudson river. Does your disgust at this source mean that you do not believe there is a nuclear power station there? Or are you just pulling your frequent trick of trying to diss what doesn’t fit your view?
It’s good you’re back again: I thought you’d gone off in a hissy fit because Clark had pwned you. Are you going to answer his question now you’re back?
Clark at February 7, 2010 2:08 PM:
“Angrysoba, Larry,
I repeat, you are not off the hook with me. You keep shouting “Anti-semitism”; I want to know where you stand on the modern State of Israel, how it treats its neighbors and the various ethnic groups within its citizens, its expansionism, and its influence upon world politics.”
I wonder if what Craig has thought of his record breaking blog-post?
Craig, have you kept up with the conversation here? Has it offered you anything new? Has your opinion been swayed?
The reason they probably didn’t aim for the nuclear power plant is that:
1. The main building of a nuclear power plant is much smaller than the WTC and therfore more difficult to hit.
2. There is usually a 1m thick reinforced concrete box around the reactor so a plane hitting it would not get near the reactor to set it off.
I would imagine that these two reasons would be enough to knock that idea on the head.
hawley_jr wrote: “It’s good you’re back again: I thought you’d gone off in a hissy fit because Clark had pwned you. Are you going to answer his question now you’re back?”
What question was he asking angrysoba? His opinion on Israel?
Clark was trying to steer the conversation into anti-Semitic territory, which is familiar ground on this blog. I hardly think that Clark pwned angrysoba, but you’re delusional, so you’ll think what you must.
hawley_jr wrote:
“Most people simply don’t have the guts to go there. Given a desperate enough need to sustain the childish belief in government-as-benevolent-father, a person will adapt that belief to any circumstance. The behavioral end result can resemble courage; indeed, we are taught to regard it as the DEFINITION of courage. Actually, it’s one of cowardice’s darkest moments. Even a casual examination of Nazi Germany, where this phenomenon was rampant, will drive this point home.””
Well then I guess Craig Murray is one of those sheeple. Apparently he’s too childish and cowardly to understand that the Joooooos used remote-controlled planes to strike buildings in Lower Manhattan that the Joooooos had already wired with explosives.
911 was a notch up on the scale admittedly but the assassination and terror network involved in its perpetration is the same one used to jump-start wars over centuries.You can count on these guys turning up with the jump-leads every time.
Corrupt members of the US cabinet seek to the cover the tracks of the conspiracy,including the leading narcotics mobs and ethnic-based secret societies and at least one foreign government.The public dose not believe the alleged perpetrator/s acted alone but the weight of the cover-up,the silence of the corporate media and the deaths of whistle-blowers and witnesses blur the trail from the public’s view.
Come on,we’ve been here before haven’t we?
Britain,Israel and the US have run an array of intelligence fronts and worldwide assassination bureau over decades.911 was just a matter of their showing us and them-our designated enemies-who is still boss.
tungsten wrote “Corrupt members of the US cabinet”
Ha! Who? Former Secretary of Health and Human Services Tommy Thompson?
And which “ethnic-based secret societies”?
Are you saying that the Mafia did it?
Are you saying that 911 was done by the Jews and the Sicilians?
Larry from St Louis wrote:
“Apparently he’s too childish and cowardly to understand that the Joooooos used remote-controlled planes to strike buildings in Lower Manhattan that the Joooooos had already wired with explosives.”
This is just the sort of anti_Semitic paranoid nonsense that should be deleted from pages like this.
Despite myself have to point out that hawley junior is falling into Blair’s trap. The reason the Twin Towers and the Pentagon were targeted is surely obvious: they were the visible symbols of the USA’s financial and military power.
“The main building of a nuclear power plant is much smaller than the WTC and therfore more difficult to hit.”
Pish. Harder to the hit than the west elevation of the Pentagon?
“There is usually a 1m thick reinforced concrete box”
That’ll be why the plane that hit the Pentagon ground to a halt at the outer wall. Oh, wait…
“The reason the Twin Towers and the Pentagon were targeted is surely obvious”
And not Indian Point? Yes, it is obvious – spectacular, cinegenic damage does not require cutting off the nose to spite the face. A few thousand dead will do to start a war.
technicolour,
(Not ‘hawley junior’, but the initials ‘jr’.)
How ‘falling into Blair’s trap’? He said: “The point about this act in New York was that, had they been able to kill even more people than those 3,000, they would have, and so, after that time, my view was you could not take risks with this issue at all,..”
He based his argument for his change in attitude towards Iraq after 9/11 on this specific point. He did not base it upon the Twin Towers and the Pentagon being “the visible symbols of the USA’s financial and military power”.
What is your point in this context? What is ‘Blair’s trap’?
“This is just the sort of anti_Semitic paranoid nonsense that should be deleted from pages like this.”
You’re going to have to work on sensing sarcasm.
Hey Larry
The ethnic secret societies were organized from London by Palmerston in the 1860s to ease the narcotic traffic,set up assassinations and fifth-column subversions in the US.Ethnic groups involved included Chinese Triads,B’nai B’rith,Italian Mafia.
The subversion campaign Britain ran against the US intensified through the 19th century.In 1843 the B’nai B’rith was founded by Seligman in NY as an exclusively Jewish masonic group.It was simply a covert intelligence front for its British sponsors the Montefiores and Rothschilds.
B’nai B’rith was the US version of the Order of Zion funded by London-based Hofjuden whose links with the British oligarchy are traceable to the founding of the Bank of England.Certain Marrano gold dealers in London before the said Bank was even founded like the Moccatas,Goldschmids,Montefiores became lynch-pins in money laundering profits from the British oligarchy’s narcotic traffic.
The current organized crime networks in N.America were put in place by the de Hirsch family’s London-based control of the Jewish migration into Canada.
The British Board of Deputies president from 1835 was Moses Montefiore,who with Disraeli and the Rothschilds set up the British subversion and organized crime networks as well as nurturing the men who were later to lead the Confederate secessionist government through the Civil War that ended with their assassination plot against Lincoln in 1865.The facts re-the assassination alone are a case history illustrative of the power of the narcotics trade’s criminal networks.
Another British asset was Yechiel Bronfman brought into Canada from Rumania in 1889 with the help of the de Hirsch family fund for settlements.To this day Romanian Jews figure prominently in both US organized crime and Mossad undercover work.
Supplemented by the Sicilian migrations promoted by Mazzini on behalf of Disraeli,Montefiore and the Rothschilds
the Hofjuden-controlled crime networks and Mafia now constituted a formidable tool of British subversion of the US.The New Orleans godfathers,both Mazzini proteges,Machecha and Matrenga,took over the city’ franchise on behalf of the Palermo mob.
By 1868,Machecha was backing Democrat politicians whose funding came via Rothschild agent,August Belmont.Machecha’s shipping line merged with 4 others and went on to form United Fruit whose management was the NY Our Crowd bankers.
Flash forward to DA Garrison who famously linked remnants of the old Machecha mob to the murder of JFK.The Orleans mob fell into the hands of Marcello in the 1950s and the network had by then spread across the South,Carbbean and Central America maintaining ties with Lansky and British nodes in the Caribbean.
The London-based cycle of international trade from cotton to opium cultivated a group of key British East India Company allies in the US including the Astors who made money from the lead,opium,and silver trades.The opium profits were leveraged into Manhattan real estate.
Big name Anglophile families in Boston Philadelphia:Girard,Forbes,Perkins,and Hathaway intermarried through mutual interests in the slaves and later the narcotic traffic to China. Barings was especially close to the Boston Brahmins.
Old Joe Kennedy sought to emulate the Brahmins when he obtained his British liquor delivery contacts during Prohibition.
Are you getting it yet?
The criminal network that gave you 911 is the same one that gave you the War of 1812,Civil War,WW1,WW2 and any number of black ops,and assassinations.
Abou time you knew your own history isn’t it?
Interesting. Larry thinks (oxymoron?) that being sarcastically anti-semitic is preferable to just being anti-semitic.
You still haven’t answered any of those questions, Larry. If this goes on I might have to ask to be referred to your supervisor. Sorry, and all that.
What are your two best pieces of evidence for not having a supervisor, btw? (Ask your supervisor if you’re not sure).
What questions?
“The criminal network that gave you 911 is the same one that gave you the War of 1812,Civil War,WW1,WW2 and any number of black ops,and assassinations.
Abou time you knew your own history isn’t it?”
Of, fuck off. You sound like fucking Mel Gibson. Both in real life and in the movie “Conspiracy Theory”