Having complained of people posting off topic, it seems a reasonable solution to give an opportunity for people to discuss the topics I am banning from other threads – of which 9/11 seems the most popular.
I do not believe that the US government, or any of its agencies, were responsible for 9/11. It would just need too many people to be involved. Someone would have objected. There are some strange and dangerous people in America, but not in sufficient concentration for this one. They couldn’t even keep Watergate quiet, and that was a small group. Any group I can think of – even Blackwater – would contain operatives with scruples about blowing up New York. They may be sadly ready to kill people in poor countries, but Americans en masse? Somebody would say it wasn’t a good idea.
I asked a friend in the construction industry what it would take to demolish the twin towers. He replied nine months, 80 men, and 12 miles of cabling. The notion that a small team at night could plant sufficient explosives embedded at key points, is laughable.
The forces of the aircraft impacts must have been amazingly high. I have no difficulty imagining they would bring down the building. As for WTC 7, again the kinetic energy of the collapse of the twin towers must be immense.
I admit to a private speculation about WTC7. Unfortunately in construction it is extremely common for contractors not to fix or install properly all the expensive girders, ties and rebar that are supposed to be enclosed in the concrete. Supervising contractors and municipal inspectors can be corrupt. I recall vividly that in London some years ago a tragedy occurred when a simple gas oven explosion brought down the whole side of a tower block.
The inquiry found that the building contractor had simply omitted the ties that bound the girders at the corners, all encased in concrete. If a gas oven had not blown up, nobody would have found out. Buildings I strongly suspect are very often not as strong as they are supposed to be, with contractors skimping on apparently redundant protection. The sort of sordid thing you might not want too deeply investigated in the event of a national tragedy.
Precisely what happened at the Pentagon I am less sure. There is not the conclusive film and photographic evidence that there is for New York. I am particularly puzzled by the much more skilled feat of flying that would be required to hit a building virtually at ground level, in an urban area, after a lamppost clipping route – very hard to see how a non-professional pilot did that. But I can think of a number of possible scenarios where the official explanation is not quite the whole truth on the Pentagon, but which do not necessitate a belief that the US government or Dick Cheney was behind the attack.
In my view the real scandal of 9/11 was that it was blowback – the product of a malignant terrorist agency whose origins lay in CIA funding and provision. Also blowback in a more general sense that it was spawned in the nasty theocratic dictatorship of Saudi Arabia which is so close to the US and to the Bush dynasty in particular. As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.
But was 9/11 false flag and controlled demolition? No, I think not.
(Now I have given full opportunity to discuss 9/11 here, any further references on other threads will be instantly deleted).
The disinfo team here is certainly of decidedly low calibre which suggests their patrons are reconciled to the fact that the 911 story fell apart some time back.
The low-level operatives,Larry and angri et al,game the site by setting up straw man arguments that are useless or weak pieces that can easily be debunked.The straw-man argument is presented as a lynchpin in their opponents’ argument which,once debunked allows those who opposed it after setting it up in the first place to insist how correct they were all along!
Sometimes the leading gamer acts as the Judas Goat who with various colleagues will set up various straw men which his confederates will proceed to knock down which then allows them all to claim that veracity is on their side.
With time on your hands you can do a content analysis of the messages left on this thread and you will get an idea of how these guys work.
We should note that a more sophisticated disinfo sting may contain Judas Goat shills who once established as truth-tellers(Christopher Bollyn and Eric Hufschmid have been mentioned as such)then go into self-destruct mode by getting involved in publicity stunts that help smear conspiracy research by association.
Hufschmid’s disinfo crew post under multiple handles so they can attack opponents of Jewish supremacism,terrorism and corruption-i.e.us the ordinary peace-loving truth-seeking humanity!
Another shill tactic we’ve grown used to is the “no planer” tactic again used with the same goal of tarnishing the Truth movement by association with a loopy idea.David Shayler lately seen dressing up in women’s clothes and studying Kabbalah is one of these no-planer shills.
Check out this link for the low-down on how 911 disinfo teams work,the ties of the 911 conspirators to Israel,the Lobby and organized crime:
http://www.takeourworldback.com/911realitydeniers.htm
Pay special attention to the Eisenberg link that references Greg Felton’s Host and the Parasite as its source on the vested interest both Eisenberg,Chair of the NY Port Authority,and Silverstein had in straight-down collapses of the Twin Towers and WT7.Symmetrical implosion is not best suited to achieving the terrorist goal of inflicting the maximum number of casualties.These would be more cheaply and easily facilitated by “natural” topple-down collapses.
Look out for that old disinfo tactic of arguing via omission that is when the disinfo team go “deaf” and pretend they’re too busy “arguing” with each other to notice any intervening posted message.That message will be the one they want you to ignore of course!
Greg Felton’s Host and the Parasite is now in its second edition.The original book deal with Dandelion,a Zionist outfit,fell through and Felton has been selling personal copies.
Used copies fetch over $100 so the cost is prohibitive.Amazon reviews were all 5 star.If Americans could get hold of the book they’d be fuming re-the Lobby and Israel.They’d probably lynch Larry and the disinfo crew!
Mind you,didn’t a US President once say they could get away with anything because Americans don’t read?
He was probably right and they probably did get away with it!
Let’s just be clear on one point. You nutjobs brought up the black helicopters. I know you 911 Deniers have little grasp of reality, but I’m sure you can do a simple word search on this thread.
Suhayl
The cultures are closer than you perhaps know. Here’s a friend of mine (who says that he speaks of mysteries that he cannot see).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aay0JXri7Ao
Another pal includes some old Scottish lute – sound free to download;
http://www.rmguitar.info/ScottishGuitar.htm
With best regards from Vronsky
Steelback & kin, some of your comments read alright to me but, ~like, that takeback site just linked, to me its deranged, sorry. The jew blaming stuff is just not on -maybe in some places because its the law, but here because muslim blaming isnt on either, maybe christian blaming too but its occasional since.. its.. local?
Attributing blames in response to troubles is a most difficult and circumspect endevour. Plenty of people are close enough to the truth of 911 ,77,war,espionage,corruption to want the wounds lanced and the damage healed.
But different prescriptions on exactly who and how to blame, to solve matters, there is no coherence and little confidence in.
Idealy people of proven merit and insight, sympathetic to the human condition, could be appointed to investigate matters and design resolutions, and they would be respected for their work and special qualifications by everyone.
Maybe a super AI/ digital messiah, will generate effective answers someday.
~A crab waffles, just think the subject needs exceptional, level, benevolent heads to crack. Not more hard asses and hate.
Larry i do wonder if you are comissioned to disrupt craigs comments. If not i think you are very troubled. Either way what youve been putting your efforts into doing here -trying to be distruptive and unpleasant regardless of reasoning- is unhealthy. Harassing and insulting other people is a bitter degenerative activity that harms your own world. I sincerely wish you find a better excercise.
Vronsky and Suhayl – great links and form guys. Im wishing you dexterity and precision Vronsky to seat the peice right and pass the strings soundly.
And im looking forward to tuning in to your works soon Suhayl.
Crab: “Steelback & kin, some of your comments read alright to me but, ~like, that takeback site just linked, to me its deranged, sorry.”
Crab, this is the same stuff they’ve been consistently linking to since either I or they arrived. I’ve pointed out that it’s anti-semitic numerous times and all I got for my troubles was to be asked about my stance on Israel.
Are the scales ever so slowly dropping from your eyes?
Ive been aware of this aspect of Steelbacks and Apostate and others prospectus, but im not sure how much of it is just taboo teasing.
I didnt find the jew blaming on the site anymore unsettling than i find muslim blaming in the daily papers here -but it all does turn me off.
night’
Angrysoba,
I believe that you have deceived me, and I wonder why.
Crab, to equate the horrible things written on this site about Jews with what is written in mainstream newspapers about Muslims is just plain stupid.
Larry,
This article (also linked below):
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/bruce-anderson/bruce-anderson-we-not-only-have-a-right-to-use-torture-we-have-a-duty-1899555.html
claims that security services have a duty to torture wives and children of suspects implied to be Muslim.
Has anyone seen this website?
http://www.debunking911.com/freefall.htm
It explains pretty well from video footage how the buildings were not dropping in free fall but each floor collapsing on top of each other and gathering momentum as the weight becomes greater.
To state the obvious:
1. That’s a unique and controversial article.
2. He’s not talking about Muslims.
So you think Jew hatred is justified because some guy named Bruce Anderson wrote that torture is sometimes good.
And he wasn’t expressing hatred of Muslims for being Muslim.
Once again you fail to prove anything, other than you’ll bend over backwards to support the claim of someone who hates Jews and probably believes that you should be living under Muslim rule.
Larry,
you get a lot of stick ‘cos you keep pissing people off. Like this. NO. I do NOT approve of Jew-hatred. I do NOT approve of Muslim-hatred. YOU piss me off when you say that I do.
But isn’t that your point? Are you not trying to upset people?
Clark,
Why the hell did you link to an editorial written by Bruce Anderson about torture? Why?
Larry,
the article specifically mentions Muslims and Islam. It has a picture of Muslims. It is quite clearly suggesting that the people who should get tortured are Muslim. It is disgusting. It’s not about atrocities that happened 65 years ago, it’s about the immediate future. It normalises dehumanisation of Muslims, and could only be published in an atmosphere of Islamophobia.
So I linked to it in response to your answer to Crab at 1:03.
Now answer my question – are you deliberately trying to upset people and raise tempers?
Larry,
I can’t link to Daily Star articles, as they don’t put such articles on their website. But pick up that paper almost any day, and you’ll find articles about Muslims that are designed to incite fear and hatred.
And you, Larry. I believe that you have done the same thing, when I was chatting to Anno, I believe, as he believed, that you posted under the pseudonym of Omar.
And now I see your reply to Anno on the Jack Straw thread – why do I even ask you if you are deliberately upsetting people? You are obviously full of hatred.
Still at it, eh? Blimey.
It seems Larry wants everyone to stay in the playground: where the children believe that their governments are merely an extension of their parents, that heads of state are really people just like us. People who have compassion for the common man and would never countenance the idea of treating them like pawns to be used to advance a ‘noble’ cause.
These people are not like us. The patrician class consider the common man to be of inferior stock. A quick flick through Burke’s Peerage will give you a taste of this. Bush and Kerry are cousins, as are Cheney and Obama. David Cameron is a direct descendant of King William IV. Unlike us, these people keep their gene pools small and exclusive. We are not in their club. We are fair game.
There is nothing outrageous about 9/11. It’s simply another example of sacrifice to advance long-term agendas. Some on this thread have talked about ‘goyim’ being treated like cattle by ‘jews’. It’s actually simpler than that. The common man is treated like cattle by elites of all stripes. Ultimately, power needs no creed; only more power. It has always been so.
We can’t stay in the playground with you, Larry. Having seen, there’s little point in pretending to be blind again. You won’t like these words, I know. Perhaps a torrent of abuse will follow. But I mean you no ill.
Thanks, Vronsky, will check out the links, sounds fascinating!
Btw, I was in Orkney as part of the very first Skald in 2001, along with Angus Calder, George Gunn, Dilys Rose and Alastair Gray – a great time!
Do you know Rob MacKillop, the lutenist?
There’s an important point re-the shill-orchestrated debate going on each night between Larry,angri,oilman,crab et al.
As it gets more tedious by the minute its provenance becomes all the more obvious.
The link:911 For Reality Deniers posted by Freeborn was a watershed for this debate in that it foregrounded luminously the fact that those who deny the reality that 911 WAS AN INSIDE JOB have lost the argument decisively and have nothing left on which to fall back apart from the deception scam that underlay the 911 operation in the first place.
The shills would have you believe that any evidence re-the perpetrators of 911 that contains a profusion of Jewish names like Silverstein,Eisenberg,Zakheim etc. is a “hate site”.They would say the same re-sites that challenge Holocaust fundamentalism,or describe how the Lobby has hijacked US foreign policy,or document the Jewish supremacist agenda underlying of all these.
The Felton book’s 911 section posits the likelihood that 911 was in the first instance a vast insurance scam attributable primarily to Silverstein and Eisenberg.They both had a vested financial interest in having the Towers reduced to rubble.The latter had significant links to the Israeli leadership and the Lobby.These are links that crop up repeatedly in any serious research.
Caricaturing such evidence as Jew-baiting is a familiar Zio-shill tactic.They know how reticent the soft left in particular is about the need to move beyond the Jewish victimhood sterotype.They are quite keen for you not to do that.
If you really want to understand 911 IGNORE THE PHONEY DEBATE SHILLS:Larry,angri,oilman,crabs et al.They’re here to prevent you overcoming your Frankfurt brainwashing in time to notice the way they parrot the terrorists’ deceptions,aid and abet the deceivers,act against the vast majority of humankind by allowing governments to perpetuate wars,torture and the erosion of civil liberties.
http://takeourworldback.com/911realitydeniers.htm
Breath of fresh air,tungsten!What a blessed relief.
Apparently the shill budgies have been at the Trill again.They’ve stunk the place out and left a nasty fetid air behind them.
The takeourworldback.com link came from Ziofascism’s most recent 911 coverage.
http://ziofascism.net/blog/2010/02new-911-images/
Shill-baiting’s legal still isn’t it?
Not if Sunstein and the disinfo crew have their way it won’t be!
“The link:911 For Reality Deniers posted by Freeborn was a watershed for this debate in that it foregrounded luminously the fact that those who deny the reality that 911 WAS AN INSIDE JOB have lost the argument decisively and have nothing left on which to fall back apart from the deception scam that underlay the 911 operation in the first place.”
Cuckoo….. You are a bit mental aren’t you! I haven’t seen a single actual fact that supports this crazy theory let alone the theory that it was an inside job. But hey, each to their own!!
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“Do you know Rob MacKillop, the lutenist? ”
I had his first collection of adaptations from Skene etc when he was still just plain Robert Phillips. We’ve never met, but exchange emails occasionally due to the overlapping interest, and we have friends in common. I expect we’ll bump into each other at some point. I think we also have a shared political point of view – not difficult to infer, I suppose. You might also like (for musical interest and lightly veiled radicalism) Purser’s ‘Scotland’s Music’. He caused quite a stushie a few years ago with a radio broadcast on Robert Burns, during which those things were said which must never be said. Ian Anderson (who you may know) was also squeezed, for his music broadcasts which always seemed to have a whispering ground-bass of subversion. I once tried to persuade him to broadcast Inti Illimani’s ‘En Libertad’ a few days before a general election – he wouldn’t, though.
Back to McKillop – the ‘ud was set up to get as close as I could to old lute tuning. Chords aren’t easy on a fretless instrument, of course, but the old Scottish lute music just hits the occasional bass, so mostly do-able.
Also just took delivery of Curt Sachs’ ‘Rise of Music in the Ancient World – East and West’. A musicological detective story, highly recommended. There is more to the Damascus Drum, too…
tinyurl.com/thedrum
tinyurl.com/enlibertad
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I am going to investigate the destruction of 7WTC and 5WTC in the next few weeks.
Then move on to what we know about the 6WTC.
On 7WTC Larry Silverstein said this:
I remember getting a call from the, eh, fire department commander, telling me they were not sure they
are going to be able to contain the fire, and I said you know we’re had such
terrible loss of life
an’ the smartest thing to do is pull it[the building],
eh, eh, and they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.
“Angrysoba,
I believe that you have deceived me, and I wonder why.”
No idea what you’re talking about.
Mark Golding: “I am going to investigate the destruction of 7WTC and 5WTC in the next few weeks.
Then move on to what we know about the 6WTC.”
We can’t wait. It took NIST hundreds of structural engineers thousands of hours and millions of dollars to do what Mark Golding is about to perform in a few afternoons armed with nothing but Google and a nose for conspiracy.
“I remember getting a call from the, eh, fire department commander, telling me they were not sure they
are going to be able to contain the fire, and I said you know we’re had such
terrible loss of life
an’ the smartest thing to do is pull it[the building],
eh, eh, and they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.”
Okay, Mark. Your investigation needs to get it right from the beginning in that he wasn’t talking about pulling down a building. He never said that.
Could you explain why you think “pull it” is significant to inside job theories? Crab didn’t bother to answer that question.
“an’ the smartest thing to do is pull it[the building],”
It’s so interesting that the conspiraloons think they have a slam dunk with that quote, yet they always seem to need to improve on it. Someone above adjusted it to say “we made the decision”
“Could you explain why you think “pull it” is significant to inside job theories?”
You might try asking the BBC. In their documentary debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories, when showing the footage of Silverstein they cut before he reached the words: “and we watched the building collapse”. Ask them why.