Having complained of people posting off topic, it seems a reasonable solution to give an opportunity for people to discuss the topics I am banning from other threads – of which 9/11 seems the most popular.
I do not believe that the US government, or any of its agencies, were responsible for 9/11. It would just need too many people to be involved. Someone would have objected. There are some strange and dangerous people in America, but not in sufficient concentration for this one. They couldn’t even keep Watergate quiet, and that was a small group. Any group I can think of – even Blackwater – would contain operatives with scruples about blowing up New York. They may be sadly ready to kill people in poor countries, but Americans en masse? Somebody would say it wasn’t a good idea.
I asked a friend in the construction industry what it would take to demolish the twin towers. He replied nine months, 80 men, and 12 miles of cabling. The notion that a small team at night could plant sufficient explosives embedded at key points, is laughable.
The forces of the aircraft impacts must have been amazingly high. I have no difficulty imagining they would bring down the building. As for WTC 7, again the kinetic energy of the collapse of the twin towers must be immense.
I admit to a private speculation about WTC7. Unfortunately in construction it is extremely common for contractors not to fix or install properly all the expensive girders, ties and rebar that are supposed to be enclosed in the concrete. Supervising contractors and municipal inspectors can be corrupt. I recall vividly that in London some years ago a tragedy occurred when a simple gas oven explosion brought down the whole side of a tower block.
The inquiry found that the building contractor had simply omitted the ties that bound the girders at the corners, all encased in concrete. If a gas oven had not blown up, nobody would have found out. Buildings I strongly suspect are very often not as strong as they are supposed to be, with contractors skimping on apparently redundant protection. The sort of sordid thing you might not want too deeply investigated in the event of a national tragedy.
Precisely what happened at the Pentagon I am less sure. There is not the conclusive film and photographic evidence that there is for New York. I am particularly puzzled by the much more skilled feat of flying that would be required to hit a building virtually at ground level, in an urban area, after a lamppost clipping route – very hard to see how a non-professional pilot did that. But I can think of a number of possible scenarios where the official explanation is not quite the whole truth on the Pentagon, but which do not necessitate a belief that the US government or Dick Cheney was behind the attack.
In my view the real scandal of 9/11 was that it was blowback – the product of a malignant terrorist agency whose origins lay in CIA funding and provision. Also blowback in a more general sense that it was spawned in the nasty theocratic dictatorship of Saudi Arabia which is so close to the US and to the Bush dynasty in particular. As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.
But was 9/11 false flag and controlled demolition? No, I think not.
(Now I have given full opportunity to discuss 9/11 here, any further references on other threads will be instantly deleted).
“Has anyone, seriously, been swayed in opinion either way? I doubt it.”
–Edo
They rarely are in internet comment threads like this. Clark and I may have found out a few things we didn’t know. I’d say that’s about it.
One subject that never came up here (I think?) was insider trading — financial transactions in the week or so before the attack indicate that individuals used foreknowledge of 9/11 to profit from it in huge figures.
Btw, after a good look at their comments I agree with Clark: Apostate, Freeborn, tungsten, Steelback, and juniper, are seemingly one and the same person. I never bothered to check before.
I suspect the truth lies somewhere between the magic Arabs and an inside job. A plot that was hatched, and then aided and abetted, or deliberately allowed to come to fruition, probably by Cheney (that evil torture-loving so-and-so.)
Just watched http://911debunkers.blogspot.com/
It’s a hoot – LarrytheLawyer to a T.
1. Huge figures? Right. Reminds me of Austin Powers – “one million dollars!!!!!!!” Actually, the dollar figure involved was more like 5 million dollars. As a young corporate attorney in NYC at around that time, I saw so many private equity firms throwing around 5 million dollars at lots of silly Internet ideas. At that time, that was throw-away money to financial institutions.
2. The volume in futures trading for the relevant stocks was similar to the volume in previous periods.
dreoilin, like almost everyone else here, you strike me as someone who’s never read a response to your positions.
And dreoilin, with that little note on “insider trading” – you completely demonstrate how much you’ve been manipulated by right-wing Americans.
The following link would clear up the issue for a normal rational person:
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Put_Options
But then I know you’ll continue to dedicate your mind to conspiracy ideas created at sites like prisonplanet.
dreoilin, so you’re also guided around by people like juniper (“Massa”) and Steelback and tungsten.
You’re in bed with some sick folks.
But then you’re the person who met one or two Americans that thought Ireland was part of the UK and based on that made sweeping generalizations about a country with over 305 million people.
Larry’s just done a classic number from
“911 DEBUNKING FOR DUMMIES”!
:))
I’m off to play the guitar, folks. Seeya on some other thread.
By the way, Larry, this
“The volume in futures trading for the relevant stocks was similar to the volume in previous periods.”
is a lie.
seeya kiddo
No, I made several relevant and rational points. You, however, are an idiot.
“Seeya on some other thread.”
Truthers are so easily defeated. No matter, dreoilin, from studying truthers, you’ll be talking about the put options for years to come. It’s a religion to you.
“is a lie.
seeya kiddo”
Apparently you lack the ability to read. Are you not able to read the following?:
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Put_Options
One strange thing about you is that you don’t have a problem reading and believing American right-wing extremists and Muslim right-wing extremists.
Oops, and so is this:
“you’re the person who met one or two Americans that thought Ireland was part of the UK and based on that made sweeping generalizations about a country with over 305 million people”
and anyone who wishes to check this particular LIE can read the thread entitled “Jack Straw Forgets His Lies” for him or herself.
Gotta fly – I’m needed to record a demo of a song.
dreoilin, you mentioned that you met some Americans who didn’t know that Ireland was not part of the U.K.. The last sentence of your paragraph was the following:
“One does wonder what Fox News does for the American people. (Or just how badly their standards of education have fallen.)”
It’s the old “I met an American” argument. Somehow such events impact on all of America – we’ve heard this before.
But I’m beginning to doubt that you even met such people. You’re incredibly deceptive.
“You’re incredibly deceptive.”
You haven’t one example, or one shred of evidence, to make such a statement. In fact you’re being very deceptive by not quoting the exchanges from that thread. Which, as I said, can be read by anyone, at any time. I clarified *exactly* what I was talking about. And you had no answers, Mr Pseudo-lawyer.
I didn’t realise you were quite such a gobshite until now.
dreoilin, but I did quote from that thread!
Let’s review.
Someone said something about authorities in Dubai.
You said you had met some Americans who weren’t knowledgable about the world.
You concluded with “One does wonder what Fox News does for the American people. (Or just how badly their standards of education have fallen.)”
Did I miss anything?
Dreoilin,
it was when Larry charicterised your concern for the Haitians as political opportunism that I really started to suspect how little humanity resided in his heart. When Arsalan pointed out how Larry uses the Nazi Holocaust for exactly the purposes he accused you of, I knew that Larry had no morals. And then he revealed that he’s a lawyer, and I thought of Blair, and I knew just how our world has ended up in this awful mess.
claimed: “The volume in futures trading for the relevant stocks was similar to the volume in previous periods.”
fwiw disputed:
http://www.911research.wtc7.net/sept11/stockputs.html
The Bloomberg News reported that put options on the airlines surged to the phenomenal high of 285 times their average.
Over three days before terrorists flattened the World Trade Center and damaged the Pentagon, there was more than 25 times the previous daily average trading in a Morgan Stanley “put” option that makes money when shares fall below $45. Trading in similar AMR and UAL put options, which make money when their stocks fall below $30 apiece, surged to as much as 285 times the average trading up to that time.
(just another delusion?)
…..
Yeh, the thread has been pretty mental, with so many perspectives pushed and contested. Ive gotten involved in squabbling which i wouldnt have done in a normal thread -or if i was a bigger person. One of the reasons it is so easy to bother the ,bothered crew is that the official narrative has to be stretched so much in order to account for the multiple events multiple pecularities. (putting it diplomaticaly i think) Defending it involves constant appeals to cultural norm and attacks on critical faculties, even intuitive and technical ones.
Its been years since ive debated this subject and ill be content to leave it be again. Ive found it encouraging to see how many of craigs finest commentors do not “not tolerate CONSPIRACY THEORIES” ahem. Thankfuly there is a good section willing to apply their best judgement regardless of such scare terms.
Im ducking out now guys but always follow the blog and hope to contribute and chat properly sometime. Im sorry i couldnt engage more.
Thanks for the chats and keep well youre a great bunch’
…but I cant resist leaving a little challenge for the distinguished Chris :]
Chris, Larry established that Wtc1’s collapse generated some supershrapnel which managed to glance off Wtc7 from almost 400 feet away. Could you advise us of the rough speed (indicated by the distance involved perhaps) and mass of the shrapnel required to cause the damage to wtc7 (included in a couple photographs on the debunking site you linked to earlier).
I would guess conservatively around 50 mph and several tonnes, but you could demonstrate your expertese by outlining a proper calculation, or failing that linking to someone elses decent analysis. Any ideas of how a gravity driven collapse could generate such lateral ejections could also be instructive.
Good luck all’
Dreoilin, I bickered with Larry because he was/is always being an arse and i can be an arse back. But ive noted you’re quality ms you neednt bother with him. Let him bust his keyboard 🙂
Clark, im gonna email you sometime about a little project you might find interesting and have an idea about..
cya
Dreoilin wasn’t concerned with the Haitians – she was concerned with finding additional reasons to dislike Americans. She’s decided to dislike Americans, and she goes out and finds supporting evidence. She couldn’t make it any miore clear.
And I have no idea why you think I “use” the Holocaust for such reasons. Yes, I think Nazis are bad. The Holocaust is fairly good evidence for that. Arsalan was probably making a different point, but his Jew-hatred makes it hard for me to interpret his ramblings.
I have no morals?
Fuck off.
And now you’re going to whine, whine, whine, whine about me telling you to fuck off.
Because that’s what you do Clark.
And, by the way, you making the argument that lawyers = Blair = bad is the best argument you dumbass conspiracy nuts have made on this thread.
Crab,
I’ll be looking forward to that project.
See you, too.
angrysoba: “It took NIST hundreds of structural engineers thousands of hours and millions of dollars to [find an explanation for what WTC7 did]…”
Clark: “…and you don’t find that odd?”
No, of course not. It was an unprecedented event.
And as Larry said, the findings of such an engineering report, particularly into the effects of fire damage, is probably very useful to people tasked with designing buildings.
But feel free to contact some university engineering faculties or some architectural firms or engineering firms and ask them if the amount of time and effort they put into determining the cause of a skyscraper collapse was odd.
“It took NIST hundreds of structural engineers thousands of hours and millions of dollars”
The oddest thing is that despite all the manhours and money they didn’t get round to providing computer models to illustrate and substantiate their work. Any ideas as to why that might be?
Crab: “Chris, Larry established that Wtc1’s collapse generated some supershrapnel which managed to glance off Wtc7 from almost 400 feet away. Could you advise us of the rough speed (indicated by the distance involved perhaps) and mass of the shrapnel required to cause the damage to wtc7 (included in a couple photographs on the debunking site you linked to earlier).”
Crab, this is silly. No one is talking about massive amounts of “shrapnel” being blasted across Manhattan. This is you trying to suggest explosive detonations by stealth.
Okay, given that your calculation of the distance between WTC1 and WTC7 is 400 metres, how much force would it take for debris from the WTC1, which was over 1300 feet high, to fall on the base of WTC7?
Answer: Almost none at all as the building was peeling outwards.
BUT supposing it was the plan to demolish the WTC7 by first demolishing the Twin Towers with explosives. How would the conspirators have guaranteed that ANY of the debris of the Twin Towers would have reached the WTC7?
“The oddest thing is that despite all the manhours and money they didn’t get round to providing computer models to illustrate and substantiate their work. Any ideas as to why that might be?”
No, because I’m not an engineer but please feel free to try what I suggested above.
Angrysoba, he’s talking about NIST not providing such evidence. But then he’s lying, as NIST did provide such evidence.
“But then he’s lying, as NIST did provide such evidence”.
If so then only you and NIST know about it. They provided no computer models. If you have information to the contrary then kindly provide it.
MJ, you’ll just move the goalposts.
As Angrysoba noted above, “I was annoyed when MJ asked me to find evidence of funerals and body parts of passengers at the Pentagon and wouldn’t accept newspaper reports of funerals.”
You’re a dishonest religious nut who has no intellectual interest but plenty of hateful interest.
MJ,
I admire your ongoing and calm requests for evidence. I really don’t know how you cope with all Larry’s slurs. Well done.
Again, Clark, you say some harsh things, but then you whine whine whine when a rational person does the same thing.
Heh MJ – tell us more about Area 51!
“the building was peeling outwards”
The building went straight down into its own footprint. What went outwards was dust. The concrete just turned to dust. The people clearing up found no pieces of concrete bigger than a house brick.
Here’s a pic from your favourite site: http://www.debunking911.com/WTC7.h5.jpg. WTC7 hasn’t even been covered in enough dust for it to be visible on the roof.
NIST’s failure to provide models of its analyses is highly significant. It means that other engineers are able to test NIST’s hypotheses. You are happy to denigrate Steven Jones’s scientific credentials, yet he has never produced a piece of work as crass and amateurish as this.
The reason they didn’t provide models is because they were unable to reproduce a symmetrical, near to free-fall speed collapse into its own footprint that didn’t involve explosives.