Having complained of people posting off topic, it seems a reasonable solution to give an opportunity for people to discuss the topics I am banning from other threads – of which 9/11 seems the most popular.
I do not believe that the US government, or any of its agencies, were responsible for 9/11. It would just need too many people to be involved. Someone would have objected. There are some strange and dangerous people in America, but not in sufficient concentration for this one. They couldn’t even keep Watergate quiet, and that was a small group. Any group I can think of – even Blackwater – would contain operatives with scruples about blowing up New York. They may be sadly ready to kill people in poor countries, but Americans en masse? Somebody would say it wasn’t a good idea.
I asked a friend in the construction industry what it would take to demolish the twin towers. He replied nine months, 80 men, and 12 miles of cabling. The notion that a small team at night could plant sufficient explosives embedded at key points, is laughable.
The forces of the aircraft impacts must have been amazingly high. I have no difficulty imagining they would bring down the building. As for WTC 7, again the kinetic energy of the collapse of the twin towers must be immense.
I admit to a private speculation about WTC7. Unfortunately in construction it is extremely common for contractors not to fix or install properly all the expensive girders, ties and rebar that are supposed to be enclosed in the concrete. Supervising contractors and municipal inspectors can be corrupt. I recall vividly that in London some years ago a tragedy occurred when a simple gas oven explosion brought down the whole side of a tower block.
The inquiry found that the building contractor had simply omitted the ties that bound the girders at the corners, all encased in concrete. If a gas oven had not blown up, nobody would have found out. Buildings I strongly suspect are very often not as strong as they are supposed to be, with contractors skimping on apparently redundant protection. The sort of sordid thing you might not want too deeply investigated in the event of a national tragedy.
Precisely what happened at the Pentagon I am less sure. There is not the conclusive film and photographic evidence that there is for New York. I am particularly puzzled by the much more skilled feat of flying that would be required to hit a building virtually at ground level, in an urban area, after a lamppost clipping route – very hard to see how a non-professional pilot did that. But I can think of a number of possible scenarios where the official explanation is not quite the whole truth on the Pentagon, but which do not necessitate a belief that the US government or Dick Cheney was behind the attack.
In my view the real scandal of 9/11 was that it was blowback – the product of a malignant terrorist agency whose origins lay in CIA funding and provision. Also blowback in a more general sense that it was spawned in the nasty theocratic dictatorship of Saudi Arabia which is so close to the US and to the Bush dynasty in particular. As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.
But was 9/11 false flag and controlled demolition? No, I think not.
(Now I have given full opportunity to discuss 9/11 here, any further references on other threads will be instantly deleted).
MJ: “Some have speculated that WTC7 was the operational centre and destroying it was an efficient way of destroying the evidence.”
So anything that had been put onto compauters would have been destroyed? I don’t think that’s the most efficient way of doing it and it is hardly certain. How do they know the data doesn’t exist elsewhere on back-up discs or can be accesssed from other computers. And if the stuff is on paper files then this seems like the perfect way to get such evidence scattered all over Manhattan not to destroy it.
Not to mention they would subsequently have to blow up the operational center that was used to blow up that operational center, and the operational center that was used to blow up that operational center … turtles all the way down!
Heh troofers – did you know that Steven Jones PhD is now writing about chemtrails and weather modification and man-made earthquakes?
He’s already expounded on Jesus’ coming to the great United States in a wooden submarine:
http://web.archive.org/web/20051124053614/http://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/jones/rel491/handstext+and+figures.htm
Larry,
Steven is solid – I though his solar powered cooker was a gift.
Dr. Jones has given several hundreds of the aluminized-mylar Solar Funnel Cookers to families in developing countries in Haiti, Bolivia, Kenya, Turkey and Ecuador, with the most recent solar-cookers given to folks in Mali (2006, see photo below) and Mozambique (2007). More will go to help refugees who have fled from Iraq and/or Kenya.
Beats spending hours and hours debunking the debunked!!
So what are the volatile substances in the dust Larry – or were the experiments some sort of sick joke in your eyes.
Apart from calling everyone loons and morons(silly goose sits OK with me – I like geese) you are repeating yourself about faith -and Jesus -and wooden submarines.
Give us a definitive argument Larry – not condemn the publishers –
Wot are the volatile substances found in 4 separate samples, in four separate locations at G0 by joe public?
What do you mean by “volatile substance”?
Oh, and, heh, did you clear up whether bin Laden was buzzing around the WTC in a helicopter prior to 911?
Larry,
You know what I mean – you read the analysis that used some of the most advanced analytical methods known to man.
No point in answering a question with a question – unless of course you are a politician, or, a two bit lawyer.
What? Where?
The word salad is not enough.
I’m not sure what exactly “the most advanced analytical methods known to man” are, but surely it’s not the work of a lonely narcissistic creepy mad scientist.
By the way, how does it feel to take part in a failed movement?
Oh and Mark, the death porn on your website is really really sick. I know you don’t really care about the children of Iraq. Pics of blood and gore are fetishes to you. It’s quite obvious that you fit into that diagnosable pigeon hole.
” quoted Bailey to hammer home the point that NIST did not publish models of the collapse to support its analysis, which was the point at issue. You called me a liar for suggesting such a thing. I take this pathetic dissembling to mean that you now accept that NIST did not publish models.”
MJ, NIST didn’t publish a computer model on the collapse because they only investigated to the point of collapse. I guess that they felt that they only needed to understand what lead to the collapse not how they collapsed. However, if you look at Dr Barabra Lane’s investigation into 9/11 she modelled, with the help of edinburgh uni, the collapse of a similar structure to WTC and found that the fire alone would have been enough t0 cause the collapse. I can see why Colin Bailey would say that as he wants to see if NIST have made any errors in their calculation or if they match the video footage but I don’t think you can label him in with the 9/11 truth squad because of that quote.
“I guess that they felt that they only needed to understand what lead to the collapse not how they collapsed”
I guess everyone else felt they needed to know how and why the rest of the building collapsed, right to the bottom, into its own footprint and at near freefall speed. Quite why NIST did not feel it needed to explain this startling phenomenon is beyond me.
“if you look at Dr Barabra Lane’s investigation”
Is there a visualisation? Does the model produce a near freefall speed total collapse into its own footprint, caused only by localised fires and damage near the top of the building? Have her calculations/assumptions/data been peer reviewed?
“I don’t think you can label him in with the 9/11 truth squad because of that quote”
If you pay attention to what I wrote you’ll see that I didn’t. I was simply using his quote to prove once and for all to Larry that models were not published. I would imagine his view is that’s NIST’s case is unproven until they provide models. Checking for errors is of course rather important. I understand they failed to factor in the conductivity of steel…
I actually went to the trouble of reading the Barbara Lane stuff – there really isn’t much of it. She says she has a computer model that explains what happened.
But to begin, let’s do as the shills do, and poison the well. Ms Lane works for ARUP, consultants to NIST, and sure as shit this lady is not going to reach any conclusion different from the official one (else she wouldn’t be published and you’d never have heard of her). Also, her business is fire protection, so she murders the NIST theory. Fires, says Babs, would have been fine just by themselves to bring the house a-tumblin’ down – no planes needed, no Arabs need apply. This lady has a product to sell.
Accepting that the lassie has to sell her services (a’body gin mak a crust*, as we say in Scotland) there are two practical considerations. I worked with computer simulations for many years, and I learned (the hard way) that you can make them come out with any result at all. People resort to simulation when a problem has a very large number of variables, and even someone like me, with an inordinate gift for mathematics, cannot write out simple lines of calculus to describe the problem. Nevertheless one tends to find in higher management a belief bordering on the religious that if a process is deterministic then it must be determinable. Of course the briefest of acquaintances with chaos theory, or fluid dynamics, or philosophy, or even poker – will tell you that this is not true. So Ms Lane’s predicament is familiar to me: she has been told what the result must be, and she must investigate what initial conditions will yield that result. Happily it is always possible to find such conditions. Less happily, it is not always possible to persuade your employer that the assumptions you have made are plausible in the real world – but relax: he never asks unless your model says something he doesn’t like. So the first point is that we know that the assumptions in the model were not freely made – they were constrained to give a particular outcome. I’m sure that Dr Lane could have as easily defined a set of initial conditions that would have had the WTC towers launch into space – that would be no more improbable than what we saw.
Secondly, a minor point of arithmetic. Lane’s model proposes a ‘compression pulse’ which is transmitted from a fire damaged floor to the next below, then from that to the next below, and so on down through the floors. Relating this to WTC1, 90 absolutely undamaged floors succumbed to this pulse in around 10 seconds, or a little over a tenth of a second each. As my old Irish mother would have said, if you can believe that, you’ll eat all you see.
*Everyone is entitled to make a living
Thanks, Vronsky! The pics are fab – including the cool cat! ‘Tree of strings’, wow, that’s amazing! I know a clarsach player, Phamie Gow, who makes some amazing music. Her album, ‘Lammermuir’ inspired some of the ‘Michael Scot’ material in Joseph’s Box’, it being said that the great mgus split the Eildon Hills, in the Scottish Borders, in two by the power of his magic.
Vronsky: And the Damascus Drum Seattle band are amazing! A fantastic, and internalised, commonality, I love that about folk music, it’s the pulse of the earth. Do you know of a US band called Kaleidoscope?
crab, from earlier in this, surely longest, of threads, thanks, hope you dig the work! As I always seem to say, much of it goes well with lots of Turkish coffee.
“it being said that the great magus split the Eildon Hills, in the Scottish Borders, in two by the power of his magic. ”
..and Finn McCool’s army sleep beneath the little hill of the Eildons, and if you can find your way into the cave there is a horn on the wall, and if you blow it, they will ride out again. I suspect you might like Fiona Davidson, archetypal stories with harp, ‘The Language of Birds’.
tinyurl.com/ygl2kbe
Warning: bruja blanca..
Oh, and got the new nut on. I’d previously tuned the ‘ud to something approaching the old Scottish lute tuning, but decided just to bring the strings up to where the tension in them felt right. Did that. Intervals of a fourth between strings is easy to set by ear, so did that. Top string ended up at middle C, way below where I used to have it. Checked on the web – traditional Arabic is tuned in fourths, middle C at the top. Spooky or what?
This thread is looking friendly at present, so I’ll post.
Suhayl Saadi,
I’ve just read The White Cliffs, the only book of yours that my library holds. Thank you for it, it is very moving.
Crab,
I’m still looking forward to that ‘project’ that you promised me…
I won’t pretend you didn’t upset Larry; I can no longer debate with you.
You are here to spread hate, chaos and insults.
Conversely I have some respect for ‘angrysoba’ who is prepared to put rationality and honesty behind most of his comments.
It is reasonable to tell me I’m a little full of myself; a comment that promotes inner thought not disgust.
“I have some respect for ‘angrysoba’ who is prepared to put rationality and honesty behind most of his comments”
I second that. Unlike Larry, angrysoba is well-informed and knows his stuff.
Clark, that’s great, really glad you liked ‘The White Cliffs’. I dramatised that story for the stage a few years ago; as a two-hander, of course, and with a strange backstory added…
You know, there is actually a tea-room on the cliffs above/ close to Eastbourne which fits the description of the one in the book, though with a different name of course.
Vronsky, Middle C, that sounds cosmic (and I’m sure it does!), will check out the link, thanks again.
“I won’t pretend you didn’t upset Larry; I can no longer debate with you.
You are here to spread hate, chaos and insults.”
[speaking in best and most terrifying Glasgow accent]
Ur you talking tae me, jim?
The Fiona Davidson storytelling-and-harp is spellbinding! Thanks for sharing the link.
Larry,
My site was uploaded after a long and painful amount of soul searching. Several weeks after the site went live I received an email with a very large picture of a dead Iraqi baby in the back of a black polished hearse. The baby had no coffin.
Below the picture was a one liner that read, ‘What do you think of this Mark?’
I relied to the Hotmail address, remarking how sick and disgusting this email was. I received no reply.
Some time later another gmail read, ‘Go out after 8 o’clock at night and you will be fucking dead, you c*nt, I hate you.
That was 2005 – coia.org.uk stayed and its pictures are used on a multitude of sites, most deeply sad, mourning the thousands murdered and many more trying to help those in Iraq left disfigured, in pain and traumatized.
I have found just two others in this sea of charity, just like your sick comments Larry, have use my pictures to insult, to vilify, to hide the truth of an atrocity, to shroud a massacre with despicable lies.
Larry, only a child hides under the covers from the bogie man.
I would suggest that the last two comments, made by ‘anarchore’ are completely unacceptable and racist and possibly designed (their very focused content suggests this) simply to give the site a bad name and have it blacklisted. My view is that they should be removed.
That was quick! Thanks. The comments have now been removed.
Syntactically, this sounds like the great Stanley Unwin, thematically, more like David Icke.
I predict that… it will rain somewhere in Britain today.
Since we’re thoroughly off-topic now, excerpt from an email to an American friend:
The ‘rogue cop’ legend is interesting, maybe important. It’s funny how pretty much all modern fictional cops conform to the stereotype – they don’t follow regular procedure, they behave pretty badly altogether, but they always get the bad guy. The strong suggestion is that rules are only for those who aren’t fully committed to winning the game – only wimps follow the rules. Of course it would be hard to make a drama out of real police methods – it’s pretty dull stuff, which I suppose is why we call them ‘plods’. Having said that, Dirty Harry’s model of justice seems in danger of becoming the pervasive one. At the movie level he breaks all the rules, but it’s made to seem the right thing to do. At the level of global politics, it means ignoring the UN, international law and the Geneva Conventions and then defending this with some sort of ‘Dirty Harry’ rationale – we are justified in all this because we will vanquish the evildoers. Those who want to abide by the law are portrayed as ineffectual hand-wringers.
In the real world Dirty Harry would have died in the street early in his career – it only needs one punk to get lucky. American/British lawlessness in the Middle East carries the same risks. If we prefer murder to the rule of international law then that will be what we get. The US and UK mainlands will increasingly become targets of retaliatory violence – oops, I mean terrorism. Remember what the IRA said after they narrowly failed to assassinate Margaret Thatcher: you have to be lucky all the time, we only have to be lucky once. Arab response to western aggression has the potential to be more extensive, more prolonged and better resourced than the IRA could ever dream.
Feeling lucky, punk?
Vronsky, to define terrorism as retaliatory violence is just sick. Have you ever heard of Sayyid Qutb? Do you understand the genesis of Al Quaeda? Should the intl community (including Syria, France and Japan) stayed out of the Gulf War and allowed the annexation of Kuwait by Iraq? Should Saudi Arabia refused to allow the presence of American troops on Saudi soil and instead relied on bin Laden’s Afghan Arabs to kick Hussein out of Kuwait?
I don’t think that a lack of faith in international law has anyting to do with Clint Eastwood movies from the early 70s. I think it might have to do with the experienced outcomes of irrational adherence to international law, like the outcomes in Bosnia and Darfur.
What did the international community do to stop ethnic cleansing in both areas?
When you bring up “Dirty Harry”, you reveal a complete lack of imagination. If only because Clint Eastwood’s continuing evolution as a filmmaker and actor should be some clue to you that things actually do change.
They’re coming to get you, larry.
tinyurl.com/burningfuse
I love lying Anglo-Kike vermin like Craig Murray.
He completely ignores the fact that military grade nano-thermite was found in the wreckage, and proceeds to finger his own rectum for things that will point people away from the murderous Isr-elis that control America, who every single thread of evidence points to.
The resulting pile of stench is then rolled around in by other Kikes in his comments section.
The only thing you?ve proven, Craig, is your complicity in perpetuating toxic J-daic rule
More racist, insulting garbage from anarchore.
Clint Eastwood – an intriguing and hugely talented actor-director. I do see your point though, Vronsky. If we’re looking for negative icons, Rambo and some of Arnie’s movies and all those aggressive computer-games are perhaps more aligned with ‘gung-ho-ness’.
Do people agree that anarchore’s recent comments are unacceptable? They add zilch and simply link to what looks like a very dubious website.