Having complained of people posting off topic, it seems a reasonable solution to give an opportunity for people to discuss the topics I am banning from other threads – of which 9/11 seems the most popular.
I do not believe that the US government, or any of its agencies, were responsible for 9/11. It would just need too many people to be involved. Someone would have objected. There are some strange and dangerous people in America, but not in sufficient concentration for this one. They couldn’t even keep Watergate quiet, and that was a small group. Any group I can think of – even Blackwater – would contain operatives with scruples about blowing up New York. They may be sadly ready to kill people in poor countries, but Americans en masse? Somebody would say it wasn’t a good idea.
I asked a friend in the construction industry what it would take to demolish the twin towers. He replied nine months, 80 men, and 12 miles of cabling. The notion that a small team at night could plant sufficient explosives embedded at key points, is laughable.
The forces of the aircraft impacts must have been amazingly high. I have no difficulty imagining they would bring down the building. As for WTC 7, again the kinetic energy of the collapse of the twin towers must be immense.
I admit to a private speculation about WTC7. Unfortunately in construction it is extremely common for contractors not to fix or install properly all the expensive girders, ties and rebar that are supposed to be enclosed in the concrete. Supervising contractors and municipal inspectors can be corrupt. I recall vividly that in London some years ago a tragedy occurred when a simple gas oven explosion brought down the whole side of a tower block.
The inquiry found that the building contractor had simply omitted the ties that bound the girders at the corners, all encased in concrete. If a gas oven had not blown up, nobody would have found out. Buildings I strongly suspect are very often not as strong as they are supposed to be, with contractors skimping on apparently redundant protection. The sort of sordid thing you might not want too deeply investigated in the event of a national tragedy.
Precisely what happened at the Pentagon I am less sure. There is not the conclusive film and photographic evidence that there is for New York. I am particularly puzzled by the much more skilled feat of flying that would be required to hit a building virtually at ground level, in an urban area, after a lamppost clipping route – very hard to see how a non-professional pilot did that. But I can think of a number of possible scenarios where the official explanation is not quite the whole truth on the Pentagon, but which do not necessitate a belief that the US government or Dick Cheney was behind the attack.
In my view the real scandal of 9/11 was that it was blowback – the product of a malignant terrorist agency whose origins lay in CIA funding and provision. Also blowback in a more general sense that it was spawned in the nasty theocratic dictatorship of Saudi Arabia which is so close to the US and to the Bush dynasty in particular. As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.
But was 9/11 false flag and controlled demolition? No, I think not.
(Now I have given full opportunity to discuss 9/11 here, any further references on other threads will be instantly deleted).
Vronsky, so you point me to another conspiracy site.
Millions and millions of people receive vaccines without adverse effects.
Gullible people like you get tricked by twisted fucks like Andrew Wakefield.
Suhayl, you gatekeepers have lost… give it up and hang up your filthy Rothschildian star.
Who are you to determine ‘dubious websites’?
My top ten instances of Zionist control in Canada, sent shockwaves through the internet, where you scum try to manage public opinion.
Google ziofascism… dubious website? No, a very true, sure and established site, the NWO is running scared from.
anarchore, who do you think did 911?
Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity, ’tis said. But I wonder. The rather unwelcome group of posters who appeared here a few weeks ago have a common theme – they either pose as anti-semitic, or raise accusations of anti-semitism. A conspiracy theorist might easily imagine that they were making common purpose, as there seems a particular desire to link scepticism of the findings of the Kean Commission with anti-semitism – note larry’s rather bald invitation to ‘anarchore’ immediately above. I suppose we’ve had relative peace – their primary objective (place discussion of 9/11 off limits) was achieved, and remarkably quickly.
Anyway – I thought Dirty Harry carried police work into the realms of vigilantism and the United States, the self-appointed policeman of the world, has followed the same trajectory. Whatever we do is right, because we do it – and anyone who says otherwise is anti-semitic, it would appear.
Suhayl Saadi,
I agree with you that Anarchore’s comments are racist, insulting and unacceptable, and contribute nothing.
Vronsky,
I too see the common theme that you describe. I also note that posters on both sides of that argument are aggressive and extremely unpleasant.
” particular desire to link scepticism of the findings of the Kean Commission with anti-semitism”
Stop whining.
I don’t automatically regard 911 conspiraloons as anti-Semitic nuts, because I know some of them who aren’t conspiraloons and the two don’t exactly equate, but the conspiracy nuts make it very difficult for me. They use many of the same tactics and sources of the Holocaust deniers. In any event, many many many just come out and say that the Jews did 911.
“United States, the self-appointed policeman of the world, has followed the same trajectory. Whatever we do is right, because we do it – and anyone who says otherwise is anti-semitic, it would appear.”
Now you should really quit whining about this.
On many occasions I’ve vehemently disagreed with U.S. foreign policy. I was never called anti-Semitic. Sometimes I agree with it, but I don’t automatically call my opponents anti-Semitic.
You’re just a whine machine.
And Vronsky, in addition to stopping the whining, you should stop being so narcissistic.
There’s no conspiracy against you. You’re inconsequential.
larry, what you perceive as whining may be something else.
http://tinyurl.com/yzkwoth
For anyone who can take a little light mathematics, here is a very succinct proof that the towers could not have fallen as a result of fire and gravity.
tinyurl.com/yhootwe
Eppur si muove?
“Vronsky … whining … narcissistic.
no conspiracy against you …inconsequential”
I have seen this rubbish posted so many times on US blogs and websites – a list of words and phrases that they learn off by heart, and throw back at anyone who disagrees with them, apparently mistaking them for argument. It is intensely boring.
I’m surprised he hasn’t told Vronsky yet that he’s “looking for validation” and that Larry is not going to give it to him – so there. Nyah nyah.
“many just come out and say that the Jews did 911”
I notice you refer to ‘Jews’ all the time, Larry. If I’m accusing Israel of war crimes in Gaza (which I do) I use the term Israelis. I have nothing against Jews and I know that the majority in Israel are in fact atheist. Israel has used Holocaust blackmail on the rest of the world for long enough. It’s past time the country was held accountable for its crimes. And even in Israel they are recognising that the hoary old anti-semitic argument just doesn’t fly anymore.
“many just come out and say that the Jews did 911”
Even more come out and say that the Muslims did 911. Including you Larry. Does that make you anti-semitic or is that what the evidence shows? If the latter then please: name your two best pieces of evidence that Muslims did 911.
Vronsky, yes, there’s a long tradition of ‘frontier justice’ vigilantism in US cinematic culture. Think of Gary Cooper and all the other ‘outsiders’, Clint Eastwood’s ‘Spaghetti Westerns’ (and later, Dirty Harry) as being examples of this theme. Batman too. It may go right back to the beginnings of the ‘frontier’ in C17th as well as to self-reliance/ C18th individualism, a kicking-back against British aristocracy and the taxes of the Crown and so on. Robinson Crusoe, Daniel Defoe (capitalist extraordinaire)…
I find it fascinating and some of the best films in specific genres – crime, Westerns – have concerned themselves with such themes. But I entirely agree that of course there is a danger if in one’s mind one begins to confuse this kind of existentialist art with geopolitics and I think that reliance on such iconic portrayals to bolster/ justify political machismo is a tactic that the many right-wing ‘shock-jocks’ with their endless aggressive adages, for example, utilise constantly in their choreic ejaculations.
Yeah, Clark, actually I tried to post again last night to make the point Vronsky made about the ‘call-response’ dynamic, which seems almost eerie, but I think maybe the 9/11 thread had been frozen for a while.
“I have seen this rubbish posted so many times on US blogs and websites”
dreoilin, perhaps because Americans are a bit smarter than the British. Perhaps because we’re given a better education in skepticism – that is, we’re taught to demand evidence before we believe in silly conspiracy theories.
Were you personally involved in the Crop Circle Movement of the last century?
But then again, I don’t think that’s remotely true. I think there are roughly the same number of Brits and Irish people and Americans who believe in conspiracy silliness, and also the same number who have rational minds.
dreoilin, you’re just pure anti-American. Nothing new; I’ve seen it before. You met ONE American who said that he thought that Ireland was part of the UK and you thought that that person’s ignorance reflected on education in the U.S. and how Fox News is having an influence. (I was giving you the benefit of the doubt before in believing that you met 2 or 3 Americans who might have said this, but you and I both know that it was only 1).
In any event, you’ve decided to hate Americans, and you’re out in the world right now finding whatever evidence that you can come up with.
You state that “narcissistic” and “inconsequential” are “words and phrases that they learn off by heart” – how incredibly silly of you. To the extent that you see such words on American blogs, (i) I wonder what blogs you’re reading – certainly not conspiraloon blogs, because they don’t allow comments that interfere with their religion and (ii) non-Americans would be just as quick or slow to say such things.
But dreoilin, I’m willing to bet that you never saw such “rubbish” on American blogs and websites “so many times.” I think that, once again, you’re deluding yourself.
“For anyone who can take a little light mathematics, here is a very succinct proof that the towers could not have fallen as a result of fire and gravity.
tinyurl.com/yhootwe
Eppur si muove?”
OK, Vronsky, so the crazies came up with a new word salad.
Thank you for confirming the parallel between 911 deniers and evolution deniers.
Evolution deniers also have a few PhD’d scientists who write jibberish in vanity journals.
Why didn’t David Chandler submit his paper to a respectable journal? Why is he afraid of peer review?
And David Chandler is INTENTIONALLY misleading. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rhY9c_iemA
Just the sort of idiot that you idiots will listen to.
David Chandler has an impressive degree. And then he became a high school teacher. Must be some fucked up psychology there.
“we’re taught to demand evidence before we believe in silly conspiracy theories”
That’s great. Perhaps then you might care to answer my question from earlier: name your two best pieces of evidence that Muslims did 911.
I’m sure you didn’t subscribe to the official silly conspiracy theory without satisfying yourself that the evidence in its favour was strong…
Ted Olson went on CNN?s Larry King show and claimed he received several cell phone calls from his wife Barbara Olson (watch his interview w/ Larry King below) – however this was later debunked by the FBI who now claim that Barbara Olson had not managed to place any calls. (in 2001 Cell Phone calls from airliners were impossible and that 757 was not equipped with seat phones).
Olson?s Story Contradicted by the FBI
The most serious official contradiction of Ted Olson?s story came in 2006 at the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui, the so-called 20th hijacker. The evidence presented to this trial by the FBI included a report on phone calls from all four 9/11 flights. In its report on American Flight 77, the FBI report attributed only one call to Barbara Olson and it was an ?unconnected call,? which (of course) lasted ?0 seconds.?9 According to the FBI, therefore, Ted Olson did not receive a single call from his wife using either a cell phone or an onboard phone.
Back on 9/11, the FBI itself had interviewed Olson. A report of that interview indicates that Olson told the FBI agents that his wife had called him twice from Flight 77.10 And yet the FBI?s report on calls from Flight 77, presented in 2006, indicated that no such calls occurred.
This was an amazing development: The FBI is part of the Department of Justice, and yet its report undermined the well-publicized claim of the DOJ?s former solicitor general that he had received two calls from his wife on 9/11.
Here we have Ted Olson speaking on LarryKing live, just after 911 attacks, about the conversations with his wife. Watch from 3:00. He doesnt seem too unhappy and he sounds so emotionally fake…
archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/pentagon.olson
edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/14/lkl.00.html
s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2002/telegraph030502.html
intelfiles.egoplex.com/2008/03/911-commission-fbi-source-documents.html
9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_16.pdf
911research.wtc7.net/cache/planes/analysis/chic_remembered.html
Heh conspiraloon,
That Ted Olson bullshit has been debunked
over
and over
and over
again.
And what a disgustingly creepy claim it is. The woman is dead, and like a weasel you’re hunting for anomalies.
And why are you all of a sudden believing everything that the FBI says? Aren’t they supposed to be part of the conspiracy?
Do you people believe that Barbara Olson is still alive?
Did she sacrifice her life?
Agent Coulson here:
We knew about 911 for fucking ages but ‘certain’ people wanted to take advantage and hit the White-house. That’s why they fucked up the Pentagon strike because their hard planned thought out fucking decoy plot was compromized. Two fucking years they planned, the bastards nearly lost the key player through dirty women, fucking alcohol, coke and money. Good riddance Rummy no wonder they crippled ya – my advice was a hit.
“That Ted Olson bullshit has been debunked”
And it was the FBI who debunked it. No phonecalls from Barbara Olson to her husband. He therefore started telling 911 porkies before the dust had even settled. Has he no respect for the dead – or the truth?
Come on Larry: your two best pieces of evidence supporting the official story if you don’t mind. Any more prevarication and I’ll start thinking you can’t think of any, or are ashamed to say it. (Handy hints: holdalls; flying manuals; copies of the Koran; passports; impossible cellphone calls…)
larry – please explain the fault you find in Chandler’s mathematics.
For all you critical thinkers, here are some thoughts on the pseudo-science of American high school teacher David Chandler: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=168450
“You met ONE American who said that he thought that Ireland was part of the UK and you thought that that person’s ignorance reflected on education in the U.S. and how Fox News is having an influence.” –Larry
Post your fiction, Larry, it changes nothing. It doesn’t change the numbers, and it changes none of what has been said to me in the past 5 years of arguing/debating on right-wing American blogs. And since you weren’t there, and know damn-all about it, I really don’t care tuppence about your fantasies.
As for falling standards of education in the USA, I posted you links and an excerpt on the other thread, where I mentioned the right-wingers and Fox fans. You ignored them. And here you go all over again, trying to claim that I’m a liar. God help you. You’re pathetic.
dreoilin – be honest. How many Americans have you personally met who thought that Ireland was part of the U.K.?
“For all you critical thinkers, here are some thoughts”
No, those are not thoughts, that is abuse. And Randi as a source? Oh, you really are having a laugh now. Here’s one choice quote from the thread you link: “I cannot believe that someone with enough brain function to breathe can write something like this. How retarded do you have to be to write that resistance to impact = weight ?”
Well, you just have to have learned Newton’s laws of motion, which in the UK at least most people encounter about the same time as the onset of puberty. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Ring any bells?
Check here – http://tinyurl.com/cyn5sn – for a simple explanation in large type and bright colours.
The poverty of the language and the staggering ignorance of elementary physics displayed on the Randi site is highly suggestive of pre-pubescent posters. However if you wish to present this material as characteristic of the quality of argument against Troofers, I am more than happy to support you.
Chandler’s mathematics is actually very simple – if it contains an error you should be able to point it out quickly and unemotionally. I’m waiting (but not holding my breath).
Firstly, what’s wrong with Randi? His debunking of homeopathy and crop circles? But of course, I’m not citing Randi – I’m citing the people who congregate at his site and debunk silly claims like Roswell being an alien contact, fluoride being used for mind control and space beams being used on the World Trade Center.
Why doesn’t this high school teacher get his paper published in a respectable journal? Why doesn’t he submit his paper to proper peer review?
You’ll note on that Randi thread how the proponent of that paper can’t help but dodge genuine criticism. I encourage anyone to read that thread, and any thread on Randi’s site as regards 911 conspiracies (or the various myths of religion, alien visitation, cryptozoology, etc.)
And I’m not an expert in mathematics. I haven’t touched the subject in many years.
I’m also not any sort of expert in biology. The link below is to a paper written about some unique properties of the bacterial flagellum. The claims are being used to add support to the so-called theory of intelligent design. The paper sounds science-y. I can’t demonstrate why it’s so wrong. But I know it’s so wrong, as I trust the well-reasoned arguments of those in the field, and I trust the scientific consensus.
http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?id=389
“the proponent of that paper can’t help but dodge genuine criticism”
On the contrary, he patiently addresses the few pieces of substantive criticism. It’s the hysterical name-calling, which makes up the majority of the responses, that he ignores.
Since Larry seems tongue-tied on the issue, let me put my question to you, ‘Truthers will fall etc’: in your opinion, what are the two best pieces of evidence supporting the official story?
don’t getit here – why the fuck worry bout our 9/11 shit – yr MI5 screwed up we heard. You let the fucking terrorists bunk off – only to shoot the fuckers outside the hotel at your Canaries Sidewalk. Now that is fucking British – then ya shoot some poor bastard in the head right in front of people on a tram!!! Fucking dumb appeasing Brits. Gotta get out of here.