Having complained of people posting off topic, it seems a reasonable solution to give an opportunity for people to discuss the topics I am banning from other threads – of which 9/11 seems the most popular.
I do not believe that the US government, or any of its agencies, were responsible for 9/11. It would just need too many people to be involved. Someone would have objected. There are some strange and dangerous people in America, but not in sufficient concentration for this one. They couldn’t even keep Watergate quiet, and that was a small group. Any group I can think of – even Blackwater – would contain operatives with scruples about blowing up New York. They may be sadly ready to kill people in poor countries, but Americans en masse? Somebody would say it wasn’t a good idea.
I asked a friend in the construction industry what it would take to demolish the twin towers. He replied nine months, 80 men, and 12 miles of cabling. The notion that a small team at night could plant sufficient explosives embedded at key points, is laughable.
The forces of the aircraft impacts must have been amazingly high. I have no difficulty imagining they would bring down the building. As for WTC 7, again the kinetic energy of the collapse of the twin towers must be immense.
I admit to a private speculation about WTC7. Unfortunately in construction it is extremely common for contractors not to fix or install properly all the expensive girders, ties and rebar that are supposed to be enclosed in the concrete. Supervising contractors and municipal inspectors can be corrupt. I recall vividly that in London some years ago a tragedy occurred when a simple gas oven explosion brought down the whole side of a tower block.
The inquiry found that the building contractor had simply omitted the ties that bound the girders at the corners, all encased in concrete. If a gas oven had not blown up, nobody would have found out. Buildings I strongly suspect are very often not as strong as they are supposed to be, with contractors skimping on apparently redundant protection. The sort of sordid thing you might not want too deeply investigated in the event of a national tragedy.
Precisely what happened at the Pentagon I am less sure. There is not the conclusive film and photographic evidence that there is for New York. I am particularly puzzled by the much more skilled feat of flying that would be required to hit a building virtually at ground level, in an urban area, after a lamppost clipping route – very hard to see how a non-professional pilot did that. But I can think of a number of possible scenarios where the official explanation is not quite the whole truth on the Pentagon, but which do not necessitate a belief that the US government or Dick Cheney was behind the attack.
In my view the real scandal of 9/11 was that it was blowback – the product of a malignant terrorist agency whose origins lay in CIA funding and provision. Also blowback in a more general sense that it was spawned in the nasty theocratic dictatorship of Saudi Arabia which is so close to the US and to the Bush dynasty in particular. As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.
But was 9/11 false flag and controlled demolition? No, I think not.
(Now I have given full opportunity to discuss 9/11 here, any further references on other threads will be instantly deleted).
MJ
Good work – “One was found in an abandoned hire-car in the Logan car park. ”
Does that remind you of Luton – my god it does!!
Larry – will you answer my question? Dust G0? Spoofed evidence? Red Paint? Contaminated? Opinion please.
I have been trying to find out why the routine video surveillance tapes of 9/11 passengers on flights at Boston’s Logan, Newark’s Liberty and Washington’s Dulles international airports are ALL unavailable. I suspect ICTS but Ezra Harel was unavailable for comment 😉
Has anyone got a copy of the Motley Rice surveillance tape? It is an important piece of evidence I need.
Angrysober,
I can talk to you and at least get some sense. You have a blog site and I have respect for your views.
Clark said, he is not sure Larry is right in the head.
He does seem to act like a child, I mean he seems to be on a juvenile level, playground stuff like repetition, abuse and outbursts when confronted with facts he cannot dispute.
So, what is your opinion on the dust research, even if (in your opinion) Dr Steven Jones is ‘looneytunes’
– please remember the pressure he has endured – even so the scientific research holds up and even before this scientific revelation, most Netherlanders believed Bin Laden was NOT involved in 9/11 and SOME now seem to agree there was foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks.
Attorney Spong has received criticism for upsetting some family members of 9/11 victims,
– but I believe his prime time show was ground-breaking considering also the Dutch are –
– grappling with anti-Islamic sentiment following the murder of Dutch director Theo Van Gogh in 2004 by a Muslim extremist.
Our own main media should now be examining the facts of 9/11 in more detail.
Here’s that book that Angrysoba mentioned: tinyurl.com/yl53hn7.
Suddenly all the people involved in MJ’s conspiracy just grew exponentially! He’s even got Controlled Demolition Inc. involved – there are dozens and dozens of thousands of people conspiring against you, MJ!
I find it absolutely fascinating that the silly gooses that inhabit this blog have seemed to have decided on the WORST possible conspiracy theory about 911. That is, pre-planted thermite but no plane at the Pentagon. This really is amateur hour here, isn’t it? Or, rather, the conspiraloons here haven’t evolved much since around 2005.
At least the true no-planers (that is, people who believe that planes did not hit the Towers), though equally nutty, can tell a somewhat consistent story.
Pity you can’t tell one of your own, Lar.
“What would count as ?adequately explained? for you?”
A properly structured and reported scientific investigation into the collapse. One that contained within it the means for it to be disproved by others. Not like the risible NIST report, which not only did not attempt to explain the collapse but did not provide models, so others could not test it for errors.
“communications experts state that cell phone conversations at such altitudes are quite possible”
In which case the phone companies wasted their money when they spent millions developing the technology to enable phone calls from planes. The obvious omission by these ‘experts’ is the vital element of speed, in addition to altitude.
“You can see them in Terry McDermott?s book, Perfect Soldiers”
McDermott may have got them from the FBI. The FBI may have got them from the airlines. We don’t know. The airlines have not publicly released the official manifests. This may or may not be significant.
“The discovery that Steven Jones is loonytunes is also significant”
It isn’t actually. He may be as mad as a hatter but fortunately on this occasion his analysis followed a proper scientific method. This means that it can be repeated by others and its failings, if any, demonstrated (vacuous name-calling doesn’t count I’m afraid). Compare and contrast with the NIST debacle.
“There was plenty of wreckage found and plenty of witnesses saw it”
Some debris was found. Not a lot. Look at the picture.
“The remains of all passengers were found except those of Dana Falkenberg”
So the Pentagon says. No evidence of this. No funerals (as opposed to memorial services) reported for any of the passengers.
“Care to explain why they left her off and yet claimed to have found all the others?”
Adds a veneer of authenticity to a tall tale?
Larry,
I note your RSS feed
The scientific paper on thermite came out in 2007 – that was a defining point in time for me – because like you I believed the official story.
As a qualified engineer, that analysis raise doubts in my mind.
Here is AE911TRUTH – at the Commonwealth Club – Jan 2009 – membership growing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbtmshpFGgw
Heh dreoilin – yesterday at Ikea I saw a guy act like a real asshole. Parked in a place where he wasn’t supposed to park, all the while on a cellphone. Really annoying. Presumably he was American. Just doing you a favor there – adding to your bag of “Americans are malevolent” anecdotes. At least this one’s real.
Mark:
“Does that remind you of Luton”
Yes. There are a number of significant similarities between 911 and 7/7, particularly in respect to evidence and the nature of the investigation. In both cases the authorities came up with a full explanation within 48 hours, but their evidence has never been subjected to formal testing and scrutiny.
In both cases the alleged perpetrators planned devastating terrorist attacks under the radar of the security services but, when it came to the day itself, were spraying around reams of incriminating and identifying documentation. It’s a wonder they weren’t hauled up under anti-litter legislation before they could do the deed.
“No funerals (as opposed to memorial services) reported for any of the passengers.”
Again with the funerals / memorial services. You are fucking sick, MJ. Also quite stupid.
Do you understand what the families went through? Various people from various agencies searched and searched for remains for people to have some form of closure.
You laugh at all those people.
They found my friend’s head months later. It was a tragedy for so many people, and you’re misusing it for your own sick purposes.
MJ, are you saying none of the listed victims died? You’re quite sick.
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/pentagon-attack.htm
I hope someday you say all this to the wrong person.
I’m laughing at no-one Larry. I’m simply pointing out that there have been no reported funerals for the passengers of AA77. This despite the fact that the Pentagon claims to have recovered body parts of the passengers. It’s a gruesome topic I know, but potentially important evidence nonetheless.
and why don’t you think there were any funerals? because no one died? was there not an explosion at the Pentagon?
are you completely insane?
no explosion? no death?
Plenty of Pentagon staff died that day Larry. No dispute there. You appear to be quite spectacularly missing the point.
MJ, you are a particularly dumb truther.
All of the conspiracy could be true. Whatever form that the conspiracy theory is in – whatever. I have no idea what crazy right-wing American conspiracy you buy into – but whatever. A missile blew up the Pentagon? Fine.
But, you idiot, there would still be victims, wouldn’t there? So there would necessarily be funerals or memorial services.
So local newspapers are not using the exact words that you want to hear. So what. It means nothing – the world is not set up to cater to crazy people like you.
For harping on the “no funerals” claim, I think you’re really embarrassing the other truthers. Even the looniest truthers I’ve heard have not claimed that no one died that day.
You’re just a sick person.
“Plenty of Pentagon staff died that day Larry”
OK, so what’s your point about the funerals.
“you are a particularly dumb truther”
Perhaps, but at least I have some grasp of the evidence on both sides of the argument. Unlike you Larry, who showed yourself unable even to cite the evidence that supports your own beliefs! How dumb does that make you?
“So there would necessarily be funerals or memorial services”
Of course. Several memorial services for the passengers were held a few days after 911. The Pentagon however claims not to have completed its DNA analyses until mid-November. The body parts would then have been returned to the families for burial or cremation, ie funerals. But there are no reports of such funerals taking place. That is the point.
Does this make me sick? Or does it just mean that I’m following through the Pentagon’s claims to their natural conclusion and finding them wanting?
Am I not correct in saying that Bush would only give evidence *along with* Cheney at the investigation, insisted on being behind closed doors, that they would not be under oath, and that no notes could be kept, either taped or in written format? Is there any precedent for this?
———-
Loved your IKEA story, Larry. I’ve never used the word malevolent on this site.
No, I did not get the figure of 83 on a right-wing website. I believe I read it here actually, on another thread. The right-wingers were avid Bush/Cheney fans and referred to “truthers” as nuts.
You sit there throwing pebbles and sticks and mud-balls, but you can’t give us your own version. You’re hilarious, really.
?Angrysober,I can talk to you and at least get some sense. You have a blog site and I have respect for your views. Clark said, he is not sure Larry is right in the head.?
Mark, I?m a bit of a softie at heart so when you say you can respect my views I think that?s all very nice. However, I think you are insane. I think that you have a lot of very serious problems that probably are no fault of your own but make you feel as if you are a kind of guardian angel to people you don?t know. (Possibly because at some point you failed to do what you believe you are doing now for someone that you were supposed to do then and you feel guilty ?” that?s just my cod-psychology which is almost certainly worthless so forget about it if you want).
Larry, on the other hand, is almost certainly ?right? in the head. And right when it comes to 9/11 too. There is a serious problem, these days, of people being led astray by charlatans who can talk a good talk even while promoting some of the most ludicrious conspiracy theories.
If you really want to be anti-war and be a serious spokesperson for children in the Middle East then I sincerely hope you will drop this nonsense of inside jobs on 9/11 etc?
I sincerely hope you could lobby the British government to change certain aspects of its foreign policy and?hey! How about this?Tell radical Islamist fuckers not to behave in ways that will also lead to children being brutally treated according to some sick ideology.
I?m sorry, but there is no way we can meet even half-way until you realize that you are you are promoting insane conspiracy theories and being an apologist for insane extremist religious bigotry.
Larry takes the same approach to Pentagon bodies as he does to Mark’s website. In fact we owe it to the dead to see how horribly they died. There is far too much hidden away from the American and British public (and the ‘West’ in general). On the likes of Channel 4 News, they warn of “upsetting” content when they show dead bodies lying in the earth. We do not need to be protected from the effects of war. We need to be shown more of it – and not the Hollywood version that I got in my youth.
“There is a serious problem, these days, of people being led astray by charlatans who can talk a good talk even while promoting some of the most ludicrious conspiracy theories.”
Absolutely! and 9/11 is one of the most obvious. Doesn’t hang together for toffee.
MJ: “The Pentagon however claims not to have completed its DNA analyses until mid-November.”
MJ, we’ve been through this. Just because the DNA analyses weren’t completed until the end of Nov, doesn’t mean that none of the materials were realeased before then.
The very article I showed you says that the procedures took an inordinately long time because they were trying to exhaust every possible means of discovering the identity of certain remains.
I don’t believe you know how much was left of, for example, Barbara Olson, but how about looking up “Firefight”. Perhaps reading it and deciding for yourself whether the book is credible.
dreoilin: “I believe I read it here actually, on another thread.”
Right, you’ll believe anything you see on conspiraloon sites, without any thought of having a critical eye.
Little Miss Wren: “Absolutely! and 9/11 is one of the most obvious. Doesn’t hang together for toffee.”
What is the most difficult to believe aspect of what Truthers call “The Official Story”?
Now I’m off for my afternoon nap. Have at it, Lar and Angry!
I think you’ll have to do better than “you are a particularly dumb truther” and “promoting insane conspiracy theories and being an apologist for insane extremist religious bigotry”, because they are not facts. They are merely opinions.
“Right, you’ll believe anything you see on conspiraloon sites, without any thought of having a critical eye”
Sweetheart, the point of my post was not the number of cameras. It was to ask you for a photo of the plane. Which you never provided. Now why don’t you give us your two best pieces of evidence for the magic Arabs?
“Doesn’t hang together for toffee.”
dreoilin, you previously called yourself a fence-sitter. Are you now what Craig Murray would call a conspiraloon? You also claim that you like to spend time on right-wing American blogs (which ones, I can’t even imagine). You were still a fence-sitter back then? But something on this thread convinced you? What was it? The black helicopters carrying bin Laden around the WTC?
“Just because the DNA analyses weren’t completed until the end of Nov, doesn’t mean that none of the materials were realeased before then.”
But not identities, one assumes?
“MJ, we’ve been through this”
I know. I just can’t make even a passing reference to funerals without setting Larry off.
“Just because the DNA analyses weren’t completed until the end of Nov, doesn’t mean that none of the materials were realeased before then”.
The analysis would have been completed when every single body part had been DNA tested and all the parts then collated. It would not have been proper to release the parts before this had been completed otherwise there would have been a severe risk of inter-mingling or bits left over.
In any event, it is impossible that any parts could have been tested, identified and returned to relatives by the weekend of September 15-16, the date of most of the memorial services. The process of analysis itself takes longer than that.
“Little Miss Wren”
I’m not a Miss, Angry. My eldest son is the same age as you, and I’ve been married for 35 years. Grow up boy. Now, I need a rest as I have a heart condition. Do you mind?
“Now I’m off for my afternoon nap.”
dreoilin, could I point out something really annoying about you? It’s OK that you sleep so much – but do you have to describe your sleep schedule to everyone at this blog? We know you sleep. We get it. Other people do as well.
Let me assume that you’re an Irish woman for a moment. (I think that’s the case).
So you’ve annoyed me with this very specific annoying behavior. In the future, when I meet other Irish women, what will this matter?
Not one bit, actually.
Do you understand the lesson here?