Having complained of people posting off topic, it seems a reasonable solution to give an opportunity for people to discuss the topics I am banning from other threads – of which 9/11 seems the most popular.
I do not believe that the US government, or any of its agencies, were responsible for 9/11. It would just need too many people to be involved. Someone would have objected. There are some strange and dangerous people in America, but not in sufficient concentration for this one. They couldn’t even keep Watergate quiet, and that was a small group. Any group I can think of – even Blackwater – would contain operatives with scruples about blowing up New York. They may be sadly ready to kill people in poor countries, but Americans en masse? Somebody would say it wasn’t a good idea.
I asked a friend in the construction industry what it would take to demolish the twin towers. He replied nine months, 80 men, and 12 miles of cabling. The notion that a small team at night could plant sufficient explosives embedded at key points, is laughable.
The forces of the aircraft impacts must have been amazingly high. I have no difficulty imagining they would bring down the building. As for WTC 7, again the kinetic energy of the collapse of the twin towers must be immense.
I admit to a private speculation about WTC7. Unfortunately in construction it is extremely common for contractors not to fix or install properly all the expensive girders, ties and rebar that are supposed to be enclosed in the concrete. Supervising contractors and municipal inspectors can be corrupt. I recall vividly that in London some years ago a tragedy occurred when a simple gas oven explosion brought down the whole side of a tower block.
The inquiry found that the building contractor had simply omitted the ties that bound the girders at the corners, all encased in concrete. If a gas oven had not blown up, nobody would have found out. Buildings I strongly suspect are very often not as strong as they are supposed to be, with contractors skimping on apparently redundant protection. The sort of sordid thing you might not want too deeply investigated in the event of a national tragedy.
Precisely what happened at the Pentagon I am less sure. There is not the conclusive film and photographic evidence that there is for New York. I am particularly puzzled by the much more skilled feat of flying that would be required to hit a building virtually at ground level, in an urban area, after a lamppost clipping route – very hard to see how a non-professional pilot did that. But I can think of a number of possible scenarios where the official explanation is not quite the whole truth on the Pentagon, but which do not necessitate a belief that the US government or Dick Cheney was behind the attack.
In my view the real scandal of 9/11 was that it was blowback – the product of a malignant terrorist agency whose origins lay in CIA funding and provision. Also blowback in a more general sense that it was spawned in the nasty theocratic dictatorship of Saudi Arabia which is so close to the US and to the Bush dynasty in particular. As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.
But was 9/11 false flag and controlled demolition? No, I think not.
(Now I have given full opportunity to discuss 9/11 here, any further references on other threads will be instantly deleted).
Mark: “So, what is your opinion on the dust research, even if (in your opinion) Dr Steven Jones is ‘looneytunes’
– please remember the pressure he has endured – even so the scientific research holds up and even before this scientific revelation, most Netherlanders believed Bin Laden was NOT involved in 9/11 and SOME now seem to agree there was foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks.”
Mark, I have no idea what Steven Jones? experiments are supposed to show. I have read elsewhere that it is nothing surprising and I seem to remember that Steven Jones was throwing the bags of ?thermite? around at a press conference and doing his giggly, ?Ooh, goodness!? nonsense as he did it.
I think it is quite possible that some of your heroes believe what they say they do but it is quite clear to me that many of them are liars and many of them are ignorant and that there are plenty who are both.
As for the ?pressure? he has undergone, Steven Jones was probably offered one of the most generous packages a university could. That is, they PAID HIM and allowed him to follow his own research. He was never FIRED despite what many conspiraloons will have you believe.
In my opinion he probably should have been fired but the good folks at BYU are clearly bigger bleeding hearts than I am.
Now, what do you think of Steven Jones? latest nonsense?
“The analysis would have been completed when every single body part had been DNA tested and all the parts then collated. It would not have been proper to release the parts before this had been completed otherwise there would have been a severe risk of inter-mingling or bits left over.”
Do you know that what you said there is true?
MJ, you still haven’t told us what your point is with the victim identification.
Your fellow truthers would want you to stop harping on this. It’s a dead end – you’re searching for anomalies that aren’t there. You’ve already granted that people died. There were funerals or memorial services or both so children could have some sense of closure. What path are you going down? What’s your point?
You seem to lack the ability to even briefly put yourself in the shoes of the people who were dealing with that tragedy. You can’t even slightly do so. You’re quite possibly a sociopath.
There were about 20-25 of them, Lar, but they left in dribs and drabs because I wouldn’t give up and go away. I was posting facts and reports and excerpts from books, they were quoting Rush, and Glenn and O’Reilly. Opinions. I learned a lot about the far-right fringe in the US. The Sarah Palin supporters. And I wouldn’t say I liked it, but it was certainly an education.
I’d point out a few somethings that are really annoying about you, Lar, but I don’t like to be too rude. At least not in one go. And I’ve been up since 5am honey. So I don’t “sleep so much”.
Do you have an answer for MJ yet? Or not? Why don’t you have one?
I’m not a Miss, Angry. My eldest son is the same age as you, and I’ve been married for 35 years. Grow up boy. Now, I need a rest as I have a heart condition. Do you mind?
Oh Jesus! Enough with the self-pitying martyrdom already! I’d love to sit and chat but I have terrible diarrhea, now let me forthwith to the bathroom before I pebble-dash my swivel chair!
Grow up, boy. Just grow up. It may take a little time. But you’ll make it.
“Do you know that what you said there is true?”
How could it possibly be otherwise? Every family had to provide sample DNA. Every body part then had to be tested and matched against those samples. Only once they’d completed that for every single part would they be able to collate the parts and ensure that the bags of parts returned to each family were complete and contained no wrong bits.
By the way, this lambasting of Jones is both tiresome and pointless. His analysis of the dust followed a proper scientific methodology. It can therefore be tested and repeated by others. That is the only issue of significance.
“MJ, you still haven’t told us what your point is with the victim identification”.
Larry, you really are quite monumentally dense. My point is that the Pentagon’s claim to have recovered body parts of the passengers on AA77 should be held in some doubt, because there is no evidence that any body parts were returned to the families for burial or cremation.
Get it now?
Um, gee, peer review? Have you heard of it?
Also, describe the chain-of-custody on the so-called samples.
Also, at some point you silly gooses will have to answer why thermite would ever be used to take down a building.
In other words, for that and other reasons, the work must satisfy a minimum plausibility check.
Now how is it testable and repeatable?
“. My point is that the Pentagon’s claim to have recovered body parts of the passengers on AA77 should be held in some doubt, because there is no evidence that any body parts were returned to the families for burial or cremation.”
But even if we assume your conspiracy – truck bomb? missile? space laser? – why the fuck would the super-secret Men in Black mess with the victims’ remains?
Are you merely making an argument about bureaucratic inefficiency or bureaucratic fraud?
How does this fit into your conspiracy?
Also, MJ, to ask the obvious, why aren’t the families complaining about this?
You do really seem like a sociopath, but I can assure you that such things are important to normal people when they’ve lost a loved one.
“why the fuck would the super-secret Men in Black mess with the victims’ remains?”
One possibility of course is that there were no passenger remains found at all.
“why aren’t the families complaining about this?”
Good question. One very interesting thing is how different are the families of those who died in the towers from the families of those on the planes. The former are angry, organised, critical of the government, calling for inquiries etc. The latter on the other hand are almost without exception serene, uncomplaining and supportive of the government. Have you noticed that?
No, but I have noticed that the families of those who died in the towers have more sports cars than the families of those on the planes.
They also have more kids in college.
There’s also greater incidence of cancer and heart disease.
It’s the numbers, moron.
Approximately 250 passengers in all, a statistically significant number.
Why is that a “statistically significant number”? With respect to what?
Large enough for it show the same random variation of characteristics as the larger number of victims in the towers.
That’s gibberish.
But it still remains the case that the families of those who died in the towers have greater incidence of cancer and heart disease than the families of those on the planes.
Conspiracy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHjFxJVeCQs
Good afternoon, everyone. And Goodnight, good morning and good evening…
I’m sure it’s occurred to people that by now, 8.5 years on, in the absence of some massive new revelation, it is unlikely that those with doubts about the official narrative will cease to have doubts and that both those who who have no doubts about the official nrrative and those who have no doubts about there being a completely different explanation will begin to harbour doubts about their respective conclusions.
I made this point around 500 posts ago.
I feel that perhaps it would not be of any detriment to the universe we all inhabit for me or someone else occasionally to make this point, say, every half-millenium posts or so.
I know your ‘debating’ techniques well enough now Larry to realise that when you branch off into wild non sequiters it means that you are tacitly conceding the point you were originally arguing.
So, no funerals for the alleged passengers of AA77 then. Thank you. How interesting.
Suhayl: I know you’re right. It’s just that we enjoy it.
“How could it possibly be otherwise? Every family had to provide sample DNA. Every body part then had to be tested and matched against those samples. Only once they’d completed that for every single part would they be able to collate the parts and ensure that the bags of parts returned to each family were complete and contained no wrong bits.”
This is obviously silly…
If someone were to die in an awful helicopter ejector seat accident, they wouldn?t hold off the funeral until every little last bit of the person were found. For a start, they wouldn?t even know if they HAD found every last piece. What you seem to be saying is that if any body part of anyone is discovered then all funerals must be put on hold until that piece is identified. Do you really think things work that way?
I think I plainly demonstrated how you lack the ability to think through an issue. There were far, far more victims in the WTC than there were on the planes. The number of family members of the victims expanded that difference.
What was your issue with Barbara Olson’s funeral?
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-78278130.html
“What you seem to be saying is that if any body part of anyone is discovered then all funerals must be put on hold until that piece is identified. Do you really think things work that way?”
Yeah, MJ is odd – even for a truther. I’ve never heard a truther make such a silly claim, and I’ve heard a lot of silliness from truthers.
I don’t think MJ has the ability to empathize. He can’t imagine what it was like to be a family member of one of the victims – to have to make the decision to hold a funeral to, for instance, help the children move on. MJ’s inability to empathize might not actually be sociopathic – perhaps he lacks a theory of mind and is a high-functioning victim of autism.
MJ is really not like the other truthers.
“If someone were to die in an awful helicopter ejector seat accident, they wouldn?t hold off the funeral until every little last bit of the person were found”
You’re missing the point. In your example the identity of the single victim is already known. In the Pentagon case they would have us believe there were scores of victims whose body parts were mixed together and had to be individually identified and separated. This is why it took so long. Remember on the Arlington site how keen they were to stress that the few remaining unidentifiable parts had been separated from the rest and buried together?
“MJ is really not like the other truthers.”
In a way, MJ isn’t so bad. He clearly believes what he says but the strange thing is that he seems to misunderstand the reason for doubt in the first place.
IF the hijakcers had not been on the flight manifests then ABSOLUTELY that would be wierd and worth looking into. But when it turned out that DRG had simply assumed a CNN “VICTIMS” list was the manifest then it should have been put to bed.
But some Truthers have been convinced to go on and on and on and on about this non-lead.
It makes me wonder how they could play Cluedo. I’m sure that DRG would suspect Colonel Mustard in the Ballroom with the revolver because for so many Truthers no other scenario could possibly compute. Even after all those possibilities have been eradicated they’d have to question how the board got a coffee stain…etc…
“You’re missing the point. In your example the identity of the single victim is already known. In the Pentagon case they would have us believe there were scores of victims whose body parts were mixed together and had to be individually identified and separated. This is why it took so long. Remember on the Arlington site how keen they were to stress that the few remaining unidentifiable parts had been separated from the rest and buried together?”
Jesus! There are wars and suicide bombings and all manner of things that go on all the time. They often entail multiple victims and yet funerals of such events don’t usually have to held off for two months until every last sinew of flesh has been separated. My God! Don’t you get the point that they were looking for identifiable remains of each person and took such a long time finding those?
“There were far, far more victims in the WTC than there were on the planes”
Indeed, by a factor of 10 to 1 approx.
“The number of family members of the victims expanded that difference”.
Indeed, by roughly the same ratio perhaps.
“What was your issue with Barbara Olson’s funeral?”
Keep up Larry. That the service on 16th September could not have been a funeral. It must have been a memorial. Nowhere near long enough to identify her by DNA.
My empathy and respect for the victims and their families is such that I feel thet deserve to know the truth, not fobbed off with some cynical fairy-tale.
Since it now appears you are a psychologist Larry, perhaps you could let me know why you were unable to cite any evidence that supports your own most cherished beliefs. Any views?
“Keep up Larry. That the service on 16th September could not have been a funeral. It must have been a memorial. Nowhere near long enough to identify her by DNA.”
You’re really fucking sick, man.
At that point, for each of the victims, the threat existed that no DNA would be found.
That doesn’t mean that they had to hold off on either a memorial service or a funeral, in hopes that the evidence would come out later.
I was in the middle of all that shit. I was living in NYC, and I knew people involved. Many knew that their loved ones had died even though for many of them THERE WAS NO DNA AT THE WTC. THEY STILL HAD FUNERALS YOU FUCKTARD. But many could not accept that their loved ones had died, so they held off on the funerals.
It is fairly clear that Barbara Olson’s family held a funeral because they were convinced that she was dead.
All those victims at the WTC – should funerals have not been held? Is that what you’re saying, fucktard?
You really don’t have the ability to think through these issues, do you?
Larry, you really seem to have a problem grasping the difference between a memorial service and a funeral.
“They often entail multiple victims and yet funerals of such events don’t usually have to held off for two months until every last sinew of flesh has been separated”
Maybe you’re right. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe the folk at the Pentagon lab are wrong, along with the those at the Arlington Memorial. Maybe they didn’t really go about their task with the painstaking care, thoroughness and sensitivity that they claim. Maybe they put all the body parts out with the trash and sent everyone a tin of dogfood.
The bottom line howevewr is this. The only memorials recorded for the passengers on AA77 took place on the weekend of 15-16 September. A basic piece of DNA analysis takes longer than this. It is a lengthy process. If the families were sent anything in this time it would not be possible to determine through DNA analysis whether it belonged to their loved one or not.