Having complained of people posting off topic, it seems a reasonable solution to give an opportunity for people to discuss the topics I am banning from other threads – of which 9/11 seems the most popular.
I do not believe that the US government, or any of its agencies, were responsible for 9/11. It would just need too many people to be involved. Someone would have objected. There are some strange and dangerous people in America, but not in sufficient concentration for this one. They couldn’t even keep Watergate quiet, and that was a small group. Any group I can think of – even Blackwater – would contain operatives with scruples about blowing up New York. They may be sadly ready to kill people in poor countries, but Americans en masse? Somebody would say it wasn’t a good idea.
I asked a friend in the construction industry what it would take to demolish the twin towers. He replied nine months, 80 men, and 12 miles of cabling. The notion that a small team at night could plant sufficient explosives embedded at key points, is laughable.
The forces of the aircraft impacts must have been amazingly high. I have no difficulty imagining they would bring down the building. As for WTC 7, again the kinetic energy of the collapse of the twin towers must be immense.
I admit to a private speculation about WTC7. Unfortunately in construction it is extremely common for contractors not to fix or install properly all the expensive girders, ties and rebar that are supposed to be enclosed in the concrete. Supervising contractors and municipal inspectors can be corrupt. I recall vividly that in London some years ago a tragedy occurred when a simple gas oven explosion brought down the whole side of a tower block.
The inquiry found that the building contractor had simply omitted the ties that bound the girders at the corners, all encased in concrete. If a gas oven had not blown up, nobody would have found out. Buildings I strongly suspect are very often not as strong as they are supposed to be, with contractors skimping on apparently redundant protection. The sort of sordid thing you might not want too deeply investigated in the event of a national tragedy.
Precisely what happened at the Pentagon I am less sure. There is not the conclusive film and photographic evidence that there is for New York. I am particularly puzzled by the much more skilled feat of flying that would be required to hit a building virtually at ground level, in an urban area, after a lamppost clipping route – very hard to see how a non-professional pilot did that. But I can think of a number of possible scenarios where the official explanation is not quite the whole truth on the Pentagon, but which do not necessitate a belief that the US government or Dick Cheney was behind the attack.
In my view the real scandal of 9/11 was that it was blowback – the product of a malignant terrorist agency whose origins lay in CIA funding and provision. Also blowback in a more general sense that it was spawned in the nasty theocratic dictatorship of Saudi Arabia which is so close to the US and to the Bush dynasty in particular. As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.
But was 9/11 false flag and controlled demolition? No, I think not.
(Now I have given full opportunity to discuss 9/11 here, any further references on other threads will be instantly deleted).
“The bottom line howevewr is this. The only memorials recorded for the passengers on AA77 took place on the weekend of 15-16 September. A basic piece of DNA analysis takes longer than this. It is a lengthy process. If the families were sent anything in this time it would not be possible to determine through DNA analysis whether it belonged to their loved one or not. ”
MJ, this has been the most confusing line of conversation for me and I’ve never worked out what your point is.
It seems that youu are pushing the idea that no passengers were ever confirmed dead (no matter what we were led to believe with the DNA testing.)
So, what are you implying? Why do you find this significant? Why do you find it so hard to believe that someon could have been buried without all bits and pieces accounted for? (This happens all the time by the way with people who get blown up with, for example, explosives).
Angrysober,
I gave you a bit of rope and you went away and hung yourself. Yes, I agree your ‘cod-psychology’ is almost certainly worthless.
My attention turned to 911 when scientific analysis proved the official report was flawed. The more I examine, the greater my concern. It has been proved the criminal Bush and his cohorts used 911 as a catalyst for an illegal strike on an innocent country, murdering and maiming the Iraqi children I love.
You too Angrysober are a disgrace in that you are blinded by the official evidence, incapable of rational thinking, unwilling to question the immerging evidence and essentially lacking thought and compassion to the the bereaved families desperate for closure and fighting for a public review.(1)
Therefore my cause is just, my motives sound, my integrity intact. I have supported the impeachment of Bush and Cheney and the sacking of Yoo who is another disgrace to the American legal system is that he condoned barbaric torture. Even if it takes the rest of my life I will find the truth and when I do I will expect you to hang your head in shame.
(1) 40 family members of those killed on 9/11 today announced the release of the 911 Truth Statement, a call for immediate inquiry into evidence that suggests high-level government officials may have deliberately allowed the September 11th attacks to occur. The Statement supports an August 31st Zogby poll that found nearly 50% of New Yorkers believe the government had foreknowledge and “consciously failed to act,” with 66% wanting a new 9/11 investigation. (New York Times)
“hung yourself.”
Hanged yourself.
The wee boy does it again.
“My attention turned to 911 when scientific analysis proved the official report was flawed. The more I examine, the greater my concern.”
Yes, and that writing is exactly the type you will find on an intelligent design essay.
” It has been proved the criminal Bush and his cohorts used 911 as a catalyst for an illegal strike on an innocent country, murdering and maiming the Iraqi children I love.”
You mean that Bush and Cheney could think of no way of convincing the world of doing what Bill Clinton was on the verge of doing in the late nineties without flying planes into the Twin Towers? Nay! Without demolishing the twin towers with faerie dust AFTER flying planes into them?
You silly muppet if you believe that!
“You too Angrysober are a disgrace in that you are blinded by the official evidence, incapable of rational thinking, unwilling to question the immerging evidence and essentially lacking thought and compassion to the the bereaved families desperate for closure and fighting for a public review.(1)”
Don’t be a fucking supercilious arse!
Leslie Robertson told Steven Jones that the family victims he spoke of find your Truther garbage far more hurtful than your “official story”.
People such as Barry Jennings, whose family is not allowed to privately mourn before a pack of ghouls descend on them asking , “Did Gubmint do it?”
“Therefore my cause is just, my motives sound, my integrity intact. I have supported the impeachment of Bush and Cheney and the sacking of Yoo who is another disgrace to the American legal system is that he condoned barbaric torture. Even if it takes the rest of my life I will find the truth and when I do I will expect you to hang your head in shame.”
This is garbage because you have already said that you are looking for the truth and think that the truth will make me hang my head in shame.
Why? How do you know that the truth is not the same as what I believe?
I thought you were not a Truther?
What would you do if you discovered after all your years of Investigoogling that Muhammed Atta et al, really did fly planes into buildings?
Would you say, “Oh well, maybe they did but that still doesn’t excuse the Iraq War?”
And if you did then wouldn’t that have been a monumentally pointless waste of effort?
“The Statement supports an August 31st Zogby poll that found nearly 50% of New Yorkers believe the government had foreknowledge and “consciously failed to act,” with 66% wanting a new 9/11 investigation. (New York Times)”
New York Times? Beeeeep!
Mainstream Media alert!
August 31st of what year?
Does it matter how many people think the Moon is made of cheese?
Also was the Zogby poll worded in such a way as to say that X numbers of people believed it was an inside job?
Insanity rules Angrysober – another strawman – yes it matters when loved ones are lost dood. Oh I forgot, to you it is just an English exercise – get a life!
http://www.NYCCAN.org
July 27, 2009
9/11 FAMILIES, FIRST RESPONDERS AND SURVIVORS TO TAKE NEW YORK CITY TO COURT OVER NYC CAN PETITION
SEVENTY THOUSAND New Yorkers signed the NYC CAN petition, raising their voices in support of NYC CAN’s demand for accountability. They have chosen to place the decision to create a new 9/11 investigation — a REAL 9/11 investigation — exactly where it belongs: before the voters of New York City this November. The voices of SEVENTY THOUSAND Americans who believe in democracy and believe that government exists to serve the people — and not the other way around — have been GAGGED by ONE so-called “PUBLIC SERVANT” — The New York City Clerk — who denied the petition and the voice of the people.
Welcome to America. Democracy denied.
Did you REALLY expect those in halls of power to honor the WILL OF THE PEOPLE? Did you expect this demand for accountability to go uncontested by those who have forgotten the very meaning of the word? Perhaps this obstruction of democracy would go unchallenged in THEIR America. Not in OUR America.
9/11 family members, first responders and survivors expected nothing less than business as usual and ARE NOT HAVING IT. They are preparing to take the City of New York to court to challenge the wrongful denial of our right to decide on the creation of a new 9/11 investigation.
Friends, your determination and generosity have brought us to this crucial moment. TRUTH IS AT THE CROSSROADS, DEMOCRACY UNDER FIRE AND THE DEFINING MOMENT IN THE QUEST FOR ACCOUNTABILITY IS UPON US. This is YOUR movement and nothing may bring you closer to attaining truth than NYC CAN. Stand in the light and demand ANSWERS, not in the shadows of those who would deny you such answers.
THE BIG NEWS: the most experienced election lawyer in New York City stands ready to represent the 9/11 families, first responders and survivors in court in an HISTORIC FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY AND TRUTH. BUT WE DESPERATELY NEED YOUR FINANCIAL SUPPORT TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. This is your chance — your ONE chance — to stand with the 9/11 families, first responders and survivors, and demand accountability. THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE WORKED FOR, AND WHAT WE CAN ACHIEVE IF WE STAND TOGETHER NOW.
Donate over $25 and we’ll mail you a free NYC CAN button. Donate over $50 and you will receive a free NYC CAN button and a well-made NYC CAN t-shirt. And if you aren’t already on the NYC CAN mailing list we will include you so you can stay informed about developments in this HISTORIC FIGHT and learn about upcoming events, speakers and public gatherings.
ACT RIGHT NOW. Go to http://nyccan.org/donate.php — and donate whatever you can to bring the quest for answers to the biggest stage it has ever had: THE NEW YORK CITY BALLOT.
http://www.NYCCAN.org
“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.”– Theodore Parker
“So, what are you implying? Why do you find this significant?”
I think the whole story about finding body parts is a fabrication. I an yet to be convinced that whatever hit the Pentagon (if anything) had any passengers on it at all.
That’s spam Mark!
I didn’t read it.
“the family victims he spoke of find your Truther garbage far more hurtful than your “official story”.
Do you mean the victims’ families? Naturally they would. It is far more hurtful for families to get their heads around, much less accept, the notion that their own government could have had a hand in it. It’s a mental leap that many would find too wrenching to make. That’s blatantly obvious. But you’re not one of them, so your never-ending denials are hard to understand.
“Don’t be a fucking supercilious arse!”
You seem to be more angry than usual today, mo bhuachaill.
“Does it matter how many people think the Moon is made of cheese?”
Indeed it does. They might be Sarah Palin fans and they have a vote.
“I think the whole story about finding body parts is a fabrication. I an yet to be convinced that whatever hit the Pentagon (if anything) had any passengers on it at all.”
Okay, now we are getting somewhere.
What hit the second tower? Not a passenger plane?
“Indeed it does. They might be Sarah Palin fans and they have a vote.”
Well, yes. Imagine if the whole world went Truther! kiss goodbye to civilization!
Didn’t he say the Pentagon?
“kiss goodbye to civilization!”
Gosh, you’re really hooked on the official version, aren’t you …
I didn’t notice anyone here arguing that the moon was made of cheese. Do point to them.
Angrysoba,
You ignored the concern of survivors, the 1st responders dying from lung cancer and other respiratory diseases; those families that refused the government bribes ($) to stay silent, still mourning, still frustrated, still confused. You ignore the very essence of democracy, truth and justice.
Like you ignored my question – Why were military-grade explosive chips found in the towers’ dust throughout Lower Manhattan?
When the manufacturer of these chips is discovered – you will get my calling card Angrysober – I want answers – answers that you and Larry are incapable of providing.
“Didn’t he say the Pentagon?”
Yes, he did little wren, but to what end?
We all agree that a passenger plane hit the second tower and I think we all agree that four planes went missing that day never to be seen again. So what was the purpose of flying a real passenger plane into one tower and then, say, a Global Hawk – cruise missile…
Into the Pentagon?
Which is only put forward because of one solitary quote from an eyewitness who said the plane ?looked like a cruise missile with wings?. LOOKED LIKE! LOOKED LIKE! Understand a simile?
Is there any coherence to this theory at all?
“You ignored the concern of survivors, the 1st responders dying from lung cancer and other respiratory diseases; those families that refused the government bribes ($) to stay silent, still mourning, still frustrated, still confused.”
People absolutely should be compensated if they were exposed to environmental risks that they weren’t told about. But that has NOTHING to do with whether or not 9/11 was an inside job. Surely you should realize that!
“Like you ignored my question – Why were military-grade explosive chips found in the towers’ dust throughout Lower Manhattan?”
They weren’t.
Steven Jones and his friends are liars and fantasists. I don’t expect you to have realized that yet because your personality is quite similar.
“Didn’t he say the Pentagon?”
“Yes, he did little wren, but to what end?”
Dreoilin is perfectly correct. I was talking about the Pentagon. To the end of figuring out what happened at the Pentagon.
“Which is only put forward because of one solitary quote from an eyewitness”
No. Put forward because of the material evidence available regarding the Pentagon event. That photo is astonishing. No wreckage on the pristine lawn, yet no hole in the facade that a 757 could possibly have flown through.
“Is there any coherence to this theory at all?”
Not a lot. But substantially more than the official account. The Pentagon stuff is very confusing from an evidential point of view.
“Dreoilin is perfectly correct. I was talking about the Pentagon. To the end of figuring out what happened at the Pentagon.”
Oh Christ! A fucking plane flew into it!
“No wreckage on the pristine lawn, yet no hole in the facade that a 757 could possibly have flown through.”
It didn’t “fly through a hole” you silly goose! It crashed and made the hole!
Angrysober,
No! Angrysober – no twisting – I am talking about the findings, NOT the scientists involved – the results of analysis by cutting edge scientific methodology.
You implied, ‘the peer reviewed paper’ that describes the analysis of dust samples from G0 is a bunch of lies, untruths, garbage, made-up and fantasised.
If you agree, we have a starting point.
“It crashed and made the hole!”
What hole? There isn’t one. http://tinyurl.com/yhac8zb
“cutting edge scientific methodology.”
Lack of plausibility.
Disputed chain of custody.
No repeatability.
Not peer reviewed.
wow, MJ, you can cherry pick a picture. Congratulations. Just like that Dylan Avery, who was held back in high school. Meaning of course, it’s not that fucking hard to cherry pick a picture.
MJ, you said there were no funerals.
It’s quite sick for you to think that the families of the victims were too stupid to notice, and people like you – conspiraloons who are typically uneducated morons – were just smart enough to discover the trick that the big bad government pulled.
But again, you said there were no funerals.
And then I pointed out a funeral.
And then you said that it just couldn’t have been a funeral! It just couldn’t have been a funeral!
You really are a nutjob, MJ. I can provide evidence of 20 funerals, and you would still say that there were no funerals.
Gosh, Larry’s a bit frantic too, about defending the official version.
What fuels these people?
“wow, MJ, you can cherry pick a picture”
Are you saying it’s not genuine?
How come you talk and talk and talk and ask questions ad nauseam, but you can’t answer MJ’s question?
“No repeatability”
What’s that supposed to mean?