Having complained of people posting off topic, it seems a reasonable solution to give an opportunity for people to discuss the topics I am banning from other threads – of which 9/11 seems the most popular.
I do not believe that the US government, or any of its agencies, were responsible for 9/11. It would just need too many people to be involved. Someone would have objected. There are some strange and dangerous people in America, but not in sufficient concentration for this one. They couldn’t even keep Watergate quiet, and that was a small group. Any group I can think of – even Blackwater – would contain operatives with scruples about blowing up New York. They may be sadly ready to kill people in poor countries, but Americans en masse? Somebody would say it wasn’t a good idea.
I asked a friend in the construction industry what it would take to demolish the twin towers. He replied nine months, 80 men, and 12 miles of cabling. The notion that a small team at night could plant sufficient explosives embedded at key points, is laughable.
The forces of the aircraft impacts must have been amazingly high. I have no difficulty imagining they would bring down the building. As for WTC 7, again the kinetic energy of the collapse of the twin towers must be immense.
I admit to a private speculation about WTC7. Unfortunately in construction it is extremely common for contractors not to fix or install properly all the expensive girders, ties and rebar that are supposed to be enclosed in the concrete. Supervising contractors and municipal inspectors can be corrupt. I recall vividly that in London some years ago a tragedy occurred when a simple gas oven explosion brought down the whole side of a tower block.
The inquiry found that the building contractor had simply omitted the ties that bound the girders at the corners, all encased in concrete. If a gas oven had not blown up, nobody would have found out. Buildings I strongly suspect are very often not as strong as they are supposed to be, with contractors skimping on apparently redundant protection. The sort of sordid thing you might not want too deeply investigated in the event of a national tragedy.
Precisely what happened at the Pentagon I am less sure. There is not the conclusive film and photographic evidence that there is for New York. I am particularly puzzled by the much more skilled feat of flying that would be required to hit a building virtually at ground level, in an urban area, after a lamppost clipping route – very hard to see how a non-professional pilot did that. But I can think of a number of possible scenarios where the official explanation is not quite the whole truth on the Pentagon, but which do not necessitate a belief that the US government or Dick Cheney was behind the attack.
In my view the real scandal of 9/11 was that it was blowback – the product of a malignant terrorist agency whose origins lay in CIA funding and provision. Also blowback in a more general sense that it was spawned in the nasty theocratic dictatorship of Saudi Arabia which is so close to the US and to the Bush dynasty in particular. As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.
But was 9/11 false flag and controlled demolition? No, I think not.
(Now I have given full opportunity to discuss 9/11 here, any further references on other threads will be instantly deleted).
“wow, MJ, you can cherry pick a picture”
Cherry picked for clarity. It’s one of the few pictures that show the facade clearly before a section collapsed and when it wasn’t obscured by smoke or foam from the fire engine. I take it you’d prefer a less clear picture, like the ‘debunking’ sites. Cherry picked for lack of detail.
“And then I pointed out a funeral”
Whose?
“Gosh, Larry’s a bit frantic too, about defending the official version.
What fuels these people?”
In Larry’s case certainly not evidence. He doesn’t even know what it is.
dreoilin, shut up you dishonest pretend-fence-sitting cunt. Don’t you have a nap to attend?
Oh look, he’s getting as angry as Angry.
Larry: I don’t normally object to mindless abuse but in this instance I’d be most grateful if you could refrain from addressing dreoilin in that way. She is our Irish wren and we love her to bits.
Lack of plausibility:
The red/gray chips found all had uniform red/gray layers and identical composition. In nano-thermite, at least either the aluminum or iron oxide particles are 100 nanometers (nm) (100 billionths of a meter) or less. The red layer contains plate-like aluminum components 40 nm in thickness mixed in a solidified matrix with highly uniform iron-rich rhomboid components.
Sounds plausible.
Disputed chain of custody:
Just Joe Public with a plastic bag kept in a cupboard. 4 independent samples used. Seems fair.
No Repeatability
4 samples tested – seems fair
Not Peer Reviewed:
Quote from the Peoples Forum:
There is absolutely no evidence that The Open Chemical Physics Journal is not a peer-reviewed journal. All the evidence suggests that it is in fact a peer-reviewed journal. It looks like a peer-reviewed journal and acts like a peer-reviewed journal. Bentham, the publisher, says that it is peer-reviewed. The journal editors and the journal contributors say it is peer-reviewed. So until someone provides evidence to the contrary The Open Chemical Physics Journal is, as far as we know, a peer-reviewed journal.
Seems reasonable.
Did Angrysober leave the building or is Larry and Angrysober the same person – Hmmm – just asking?;-)
Angrysoba’s in Japan so it’s probably bedtime. The intellectual giant that is Larry ‘I don’t know the evidence that supports what I believe but I sure do believe it without question’ from St Louis is in the US and may be with us until the small hours…
Mark Golding, your logic is pathetic.
Bentham is a sneaky pathetic vanity publisher.
tinyurl.com/yleotjy
“It looks like a peer-reviewed journal and acts like a peer-reviewed journal. Bentham, the publisher, says that it is peer-reviewed.”
Mark, you really are one of the most stupid people I’ve ever encountered.
What a laughable vanity website. It’s set up to bilk hard cash out of morons.
You’re no engineer. Perhaps you were able to get a degree, but with your lack of intelligence, I doubt that you’d be able to hold down an engineering job for more than a month or so. Your coworkers would quickly figure out what a moron you are.
Larry,
Well, proves one thing – you have not got a clue who I am or what I am capable of.
Stop pontificating about the publisher, I’m not interested.
“The People’s Forum seeks to promote thoughtful and civil dialogue between people from many countries having diverse backgrounds, with differing political opinions and religious beliefs. Our attention is focused upon, but not limited to, world events. It is hoped that these discussions prove educational for all, leading to a better understanding of the world in which we all live.”
Seems a good idea Larry – bilk hard cash – where?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbRc1BhXjvA
‘Eyes to the Left’ have it!
Nite Nite – thanx 🙂
Mark: that film is excellent. Hilarious.
Suhayl
Wondered if you were aware of the Melanie Desmoulins/Opus Pistorum coincidence?
Sigma-Aldrich in St Louis have the pre-cursors to build nano-thermite.
What sort of precursors do we have at Sigma-Aldrich?
angrylarry seems to have slept in. Just to keep things moving, allow me to advise you all that you are morons, silly geese, and foaming swivel-eyed conspiraloons. That’s my argument, and it’s a damn good one.
I’m resisting the temptation to embellish with something awkwardly European, like saying that you are also cretins. Culturally, it doesn’t do – Americans have recently abandoned this insult, as they pronounce it in a way which suggests that their target is a native of a particular Greek island rather than characteristic of a particular Swiss valley, and of course our colonial cousins would never wish to appear to be cretinous (or perhaps from Crete).
I’m going to stop deputising now. Being sonorously dim is by no means as easy as angrylarry makes it look.
Vronsky, you really do fail in your anti-Americanism, don’t you?
Etymology? Really?
What is so pathetic in your life that you have to take shots at Americans?
Especially based on etymology. To remind you – above in response to something Angrysoba wrote, you wrote
“Oh my gosh, it’s true – Americans have no sense of irony.”
Angrysoba is British.
“Angrysoba is British”
No you’re not.
“Sigma-Aldrich in St Louis have the pre-cursors to build nano-thermite.”
Mark, they don?t call you Sherlock Holmes?
Seriously, are you now trying to say that Larry is one of the creators of nanothermite and is here to prevent Craig Murray?s trusty band of conspiraloons from discovering the inside job and unwittingly helping you to uncover the secret?
I doubt it very much. If anything Larry ‘I don’t know the evidence that supports what I believe but I sure do believe it without question’ from St Louis is an asset of the Truth movement.
His woeful grasp of facts and his tendency to hide behind ridiculous abuse when rattled (which is often) seems to win heart and minds for the other side.
The way Larry spoke to dreoilin was shocking. He has no decent place in any forum.
The Washington Times is one of the first main stream papers to carry an article that questions the events of 911.
The five star article by Inside the Beltway columnist, DC journalist on media, public opinion, Americana
Jennifer Harper says:
There is also evidence of “advanced explosive nano-thermitic composite material found in the World Trade Center dust,” Mr. Gage says.
The group’s petition at w+w+w. ae911truth.org is already on its way to members of Congress.
“Government officials will be notified that ‘Misprision of Treason,’ U.S. Code 18 (Sec. 2382),
is a serious federal offense, which requires those with evidence of treason to act,” Mr. Gage says.
“The implications are enormous and may have profound impact on the forthcoming Khalid Shaikh Mohammed trial.”
h+t+t+p://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/feb/22/inside-the-beltway-70128635/comments/
Comment courtesy Alan Miller:
Many senior veterans of the US Intelligence Services also do not believe the official account of 9/11.
– William Christison, Former Director of Regional and Political Analysis, CIA,
“The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them.
A plane did not hit Building 7 of the Center, which also collapsed. All three were most probably destroyed by
controlled demolition charges placed in the buildings before 9/11.” –
Maj. Gen. Albert Stubblebine, Former Commanding General US Army Intelligence, “They didn’t fall down because airplanes hit them.
They fell down because of explosives went off inside. Demolition.” –
Terrell Arnold, Former Deputy Director of Counter-terrorism, US State Dept.,
“I’m not satisfied by the notion that planes hitting buildings constructed as these would have caused them to collapse.
The last building to fall was not even attacked. … The chances of two buildings of that height and structure merely collapsing in their own footprint are extremely slim.” –
Ray McGovern, Former Chairman, National Intelligence Estimates, “I think at simplest terms, there?s a cover-up.
The 9/11 report is a joke.” (NIE’s are the consensus report of all US
Intelligence Services and according to the CIA “are the Intelligence Community’s most authoritative written judgments on national security issues.”)
For more information, see h+t+t+p://www.PatriotsQuestion911.com
The Washington Times is one of the first main stream papers to carry an article that questions the events of 911.
The five star article by Inside the Beltway columnist, DC journalist on media, public opinion, Americana
Jennifer Harper says:
There is also evidence of “advanced explosive nano-thermitic composite material found in the World Trade Center dust,” Mr. Gage says.
The group’s petition at w+w+w. ae911truth.org is already on its way to members of Congress.
“Government officials will be notified that ‘Misprision of Treason,’ U.S. Code 18 (Sec. 2382),
is a serious federal offense, which requires those with evidence of treason to act,” Mr. Gage says.
“The implications are enormous and may have profound impact on the forthcoming Khalid Shaikh Mohammed trial.”
h+t+t+p://w+w+w.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/feb/22/inside-the-beltway-70128635/comments/
Comment courtesy Alan Miller:
Many senior veterans of the US Intelligence Services also do not believe the official account of 9/11.
– William Christison, Former Director of Regional and Political Analysis, CIA,
“The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them.
A plane did not hit Building 7 of the Center, which also collapsed. All three were most probably destroyed by
controlled demolition charges placed in the buildings before 9/11.” –
Maj. Gen. Albert Stubblebine, Former Commanding General US Army Intelligence, “They didn’t fall down because airplanes hit them.
They fell down because of explosives went off inside. Demolition.” –
Terrell Arnold, Former Deputy Director of Counter-terrorism, US State Dept.,
“I’m not satisfied by the notion that planes hitting buildings constructed as these would have caused them to collapse.
The last building to fall was not even attacked. … The chances of two buildings of that height and structure merely collapsing in their own footprint are extremely slim.” –
Ray McGovern, Former Chairman, National Intelligence Estimates, “I think at simplest terms, there?s a cover-up.
The 9/11 report is a joke.” (NIE’s are the consensus report of all US
Intelligence Services and according to the CIA “are the Intelligence Community’s most authoritative written judgments on national security issues.”)
For more information, see h+t+t+p://w+w+w.PatriotsQuestion911.com
I, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
All these fine men and women call for a proper investigation into the catastrophic events of 911:-
Lt. Col. Robert Bowman PhD USAF (ret)
“official theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash”
Lt. Jeff Dahlstrom USAF (ret)
“Everything that seemed real[9/11]turned out to be fake”
“Treason; a false flag operation”
Capt. Daniel Davis US Army (ret)
“something is rotten in the state”
Major Jon I Fox US Marines (ret)
“I knew from personal experience they [government] were lying”
Commander Ralph Kolstad US Navy (ret)
“something stinks to high heaven [9/11]”
Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski PhD USAF (ret) – Pentagon
“Secretary of Defense [Donald Rumsfeld] referred to a “missile attack”
Lt. Col. Shelton Lankford DFC US Marines (ret)
“We demand an independent, honest and thorough investigation[9/11]”
Lt. Col. Jeff Latas USAF DFC (ret)
“Americans need to demand further investigation[9/11]
Commander Ted Muga US Navy (ret)
“not one of the 4 hijacked planes ever transponded a hijack code-
which is most, most unusual…”
Col. George Nelson MBA USAF (ret)
“the most heinous conspiracy in our countries history[9/11]”
Maj. John Newman PhD Assistant Director National Security
“the immediate investigation was never addressed”
Capt. Omar Pradhan USAF
“I warmly endorse the pursuit of comprehensive truth[9/11]”
Col. Ronald D Ray US Marines (ret)
“the dog that doesn’t hunt”[9/11]
Lt. Col. Guy S Razer MS USAF (ret)
“It is time to take our country back”
Major General Albert Stubblebine
General Wesley Clark
Captain Edgar Mitchell DSc
Col. Ann Wright
Col. Dorm de Grand-Pre
Lt. Col. Paul F Getty DDS
Major Douglas Rokke PhD
Major Brian Power-Waters
Major Charles E Dillis PhD
Captain Russ Wittenburg
Major Glenn MacDonald
Captain Gregory M Zeigler PhD
Lt. Col. Antony Shaffer
Captain Scott J Phillpott
Major Erik KleinSmith
Col. David Hunt MA
Col. James R Uhl MD
Lt. Col. Debra B Simmons MD
Lt. Col. David Gapp
Commander Dennis Henry BS CE PE
Col. Michael Harley
Col. Thomas W McGuire Jr
Lt. Col. Stephen L Butler EdD
Lt. Cdr. Bernard S Smith
Major Jon Bjornson MD
Lt. Col. Jochen Scholz
Lt. Col. Albert A Stahel PhD
Lt. Col. Said Huber
“The Washington Times is one of the first main stream papers to carry an article that questions the events of 911.”
The Washington Times is not the Washington Post. It’s owned by the Moonies. It’s wacko!
The archbishop of Canterbury has renewed his criticism of Tony Blair by urging the former prime minister to recognise his “absurdity” in the wake of the Chilcot inquiry into the Iraq war ?” and suggesting he read more Dostoevsky.
Repeating a previous quip that Blair is “very strong on God, very weak on irony”, Rowan Williams said the former prime minister had perhaps not done enough soul-searching.
Speaking at a lecture on the Russian writer Fyodor Dostoevsky, Williams was asked by an audience member how he viewed Blair’s appearance at the hearing last week in the context of his studies of the Crime and Punishment author.
Williams said: “I think Tony Blair is one of the most un-Dostoevskian characters in Britain.”
Dostoevsky I believe was the precursor of 20th-century existentialism.
Before Blair decided to preach he should have re-evaluated his concept of caring and thought more about the virtues of humility, submission, and suffering.
I suggest Mr Blair it is about time you understood that the individual is solely responsible for giving his own life meaning and living that life passionately and sincerely. In reality however, like Gordon Brown, you snubbed this suggestion from Robin Cook and went on to murder innocent children by con – vincing the British public that we were in imminent danger from nuclear and biological weapons.
Oh one more thing, Blair – Bush told you Saddam “tried to kill his dad.”
For one thing, Saddam, according to the Duelfer Report, was convinced that the CIA had thoroughly penetrated his regime and thus would know not only that he had dismantled his WMD (which the CIA apparently did not), but also would know about his plans for important intelligence operations. Under those circumstances, it is hard to understand why he would then order an assassination attempt on the former U.S. president.
Even more interesting, according to the report, was Saddam’s ”complicated” view of the U.S. While he derived ”prestige” from being an enemy of the U.S., he also considered it to be ”equally prestigious for him to be an ally of the United States — and regular entreaties were made during the last decade to explore this alternative”.
Indeed, beginning already in 1991, according to the report, ”very senior Iraqis close to the President made proposals through intermediaries for dialogue with Washington.”
”Baghdad offered flexibility on many issues, including offers to assist in the Israel- Palestine conflict. Moreover, in informal discussions, senior officials allowed that, if Iraq had a security relationship with the United States, it might be inclined to dispense with WMD programs and/or ambitions,” it added.
The report even concluded that Iraq was willing to be Washington’s ”best friend in the region bar none”.
From the report again, Saddam seems to be not a madman, but someone who would understand very well the consequences of an assassination”, notes Gregory Thielmann, a former senior State Department analyst who specialized in Iraq’s WMD programs.
So, all is not what it seems, and the reason why America wanted a quick trial and hanging, which by the way, was attended by senior agents of the CIA.(1)
(1)Ahmed al-Neda
Vronsky, no I don’t think I wasn’t aware of the Melanie Desmoulins/ Opus Pistorum coincidence (unless I once knew but have forgotten, and then have forgotten that I have forgotten). Erotic novel by Henry Miller, right? I haven’t read it, though I did read as many in that genre as I could at the time I was researching to write ‘The Snake’. Tel me more, please – what’s the coincidence?
Ah, interesting, yes, I seem to recall The Golden Ass, though perhaps it’s because one of my pals, (and translator of Italian, publisher of intellectual monographs and more besides), Allan Cameron (Lewis-based, or maybe Skye-based) wrote a book drawing on The Golden Ass; I reviewed it for The Sunday Herald, I seem to recall – ‘The Golden Menagerie’ – and a very good it was, too! He’s unafraid of being labelled, ‘intellectual’, something which in the current (esp. UK) climate, is courageous indeed!
Odd, and not inappropriate, that the thread peters out with some ruminations on erotic writing. Embarrassment always besets statements of the obvious.