Having complained of people posting off topic, it seems a reasonable solution to give an opportunity for people to discuss the topics I am banning from other threads – of which 9/11 seems the most popular.
I do not believe that the US government, or any of its agencies, were responsible for 9/11. It would just need too many people to be involved. Someone would have objected. There are some strange and dangerous people in America, but not in sufficient concentration for this one. They couldn’t even keep Watergate quiet, and that was a small group. Any group I can think of – even Blackwater – would contain operatives with scruples about blowing up New York. They may be sadly ready to kill people in poor countries, but Americans en masse? Somebody would say it wasn’t a good idea.
I asked a friend in the construction industry what it would take to demolish the twin towers. He replied nine months, 80 men, and 12 miles of cabling. The notion that a small team at night could plant sufficient explosives embedded at key points, is laughable.
The forces of the aircraft impacts must have been amazingly high. I have no difficulty imagining they would bring down the building. As for WTC 7, again the kinetic energy of the collapse of the twin towers must be immense.
I admit to a private speculation about WTC7. Unfortunately in construction it is extremely common for contractors not to fix or install properly all the expensive girders, ties and rebar that are supposed to be enclosed in the concrete. Supervising contractors and municipal inspectors can be corrupt. I recall vividly that in London some years ago a tragedy occurred when a simple gas oven explosion brought down the whole side of a tower block.
The inquiry found that the building contractor had simply omitted the ties that bound the girders at the corners, all encased in concrete. If a gas oven had not blown up, nobody would have found out. Buildings I strongly suspect are very often not as strong as they are supposed to be, with contractors skimping on apparently redundant protection. The sort of sordid thing you might not want too deeply investigated in the event of a national tragedy.
Precisely what happened at the Pentagon I am less sure. There is not the conclusive film and photographic evidence that there is for New York. I am particularly puzzled by the much more skilled feat of flying that would be required to hit a building virtually at ground level, in an urban area, after a lamppost clipping route – very hard to see how a non-professional pilot did that. But I can think of a number of possible scenarios where the official explanation is not quite the whole truth on the Pentagon, but which do not necessitate a belief that the US government or Dick Cheney was behind the attack.
In my view the real scandal of 9/11 was that it was blowback – the product of a malignant terrorist agency whose origins lay in CIA funding and provision. Also blowback in a more general sense that it was spawned in the nasty theocratic dictatorship of Saudi Arabia which is so close to the US and to the Bush dynasty in particular. As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.
But was 9/11 false flag and controlled demolition? No, I think not.
(Now I have given full opportunity to discuss 9/11 here, any further references on other threads will be instantly deleted).
Tim Groves: “Conversely, if we assume a modest squib placed close to a window, there is no problem visualizing why only one window popped.”
BWWWAAAHHHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!
Why the fuck would your Men in Black place “modest squibs” right by the window?
BWWWAAAHHHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!
The term “squibs” has been amusing me for years. They might be useful in the movie industry to fake bullet penetrations, and have some other small-scale explosive uses, but it would be quite silly for a demolition team (whether ninja or not) to employ squibs to demolish a building. My guess is that the truthers saw the air exiting each floor (as can be predicted and is testable!) and decided that it looked like squibs used in buildings and there you have it.
Btw, there are even larger “explosions” coming out of the windows where there are atrium levels.
Not that anything would talk you out of your religion.
You people give me all sorts of laughs.
“I have a csv file from the flight data recorder information recently released for Flight UA 93 which I am analysing”
Interesting. Check to see if the cabin was ever opened. On AA77 it wasn’t, apparently.
“If anyone can provide additional information on these three aspects I would be very grateful.”
Here’s your additional information:
19 Arab Muslims did 911
Larry, why not 18 or 20?
Why do you think is was 19?
Arab’s and not Afghans?
Are you sure?
So tell Obama to remove his troops from Afghanistan.
Is that the reason for the Iraq invasion?
After 911 they invaded Afghanistan, and then they realised it was Arabs and not Afghans so decided to invade an Arab country.
Does that mean they will soon invade Saudi and Egypt when they realise their stoy says no Iraqis were involved?
19 Arab Muslims did 911
Were you in all four planes to count them?
Firstly, its worth pointing out that the official story is a conspiracy theory – it just happens to have official backing. The label ‘conspiracy theory’ is just a cheap rhetorical device to attack certain views, and more importantly to close down questioning and discussion.
There are lots of holes in the official account. Equally some alternative accounts are bizarre and wholly implausible. They could themselves be just deliberate distractions – trolling if you will.
I agree with Craig, in particular when he says “As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.”
There is no particular reason I can see to doubt that the 19 hijackers were the immediate cause of the destruction of WTC1 and 2, but other people not mentioned in the official theory could still have been involved.
“Were you in all four planes to count them?”
I can count the planets.
hmmm planets, pretty Zen.
A psychiatrist freind of mine told me it would take years of expensive pyscotherapy to demolish any true believers conviction in the Magic Arab theory … or a suitably glamourised History Channel documentary.
nips, that was mue
Tony_opmoc,
thanks for your post at January 28, 2010 3:59 PM, but that’s not the clip that I remember.
Maybe Craig thinks he will lose credibility by standing up for 9/11 truth? Maybe he does believe it was an inside job? If he does imagine a loss of stature, then I think he is wrong. Just some thoughts…
19-19-19-19-19-19-Na-na-na-na-na-nineteen! Remember that song? Why is it never played these days? The average age of a GI in the Vietnam War. Because of the lack of an overt draft in the USA, the average age of US soldiers in Afghanistan is 30. Perhaps there should be a draft again.
S-s-s-s-s-sev-seve-seven-seventy-seventy-70-70-70-70-70- is the number of countries the USA has invaded since the end of WW2.
S-s-s-s-s-sev-seve-seven-seventy-seventy-70-70-70-70-70-is the number of countries in the world in which US soldiers are stationed.
You wanna count the planets? The stars? You wanna gaze at the constellations, up there in the black sky? I have a better idea. Count the body-bags instead.
“History shows beyond doubt that this lot had the motive,the form and the means to carry out 9/11”.
Steelback: I’m not saying you’re wrong but having sifted through the evidence I just don’t see clear proof of Israeli involvement. The evidence just isn’t there. There’s evidence of Israeli foreknowledge of course – the Mossad folk caught filming it all – but that’s not quite the same thing.
Well this has been enlightening!
Just a rehash of thoroughly debunked claims from 2004, as invented and spread by insane conspiracy-minded right-wing Americans when they’re not focusing on Mexicans and aliens.
I have to say that I’m quite impressed with industry experts showing up here! And I could, of course, predict their outlook.
One difference between this and the standard relitigation of the issues from 2004 is that this is a British site, so the Jews were going to be blamed fairly immediately.
I still find it hilarious when lefty Brits get manipulated by nutter right-wing Americans.
Here’s an odd thing:
As the Bazant & Zhou white paper of September 2001 forms the basis of subsequent analyses of the collapses, I thought I had best at least familiarise myself with it (‘Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse??”Simple Analysis’). So I read it – twice. Putting aside the temperature claims (which we now know were considerably lower), I concluded that it was a quite reasonable and certainly scientific explanation of the events.
I thought it wise to compare the paper with the actual events, though. For this, I studied the footage from the mainstream documentary ‘WTC- the first 24 hours’.
Compare this statement by Bazant & Zhou:
“At that moment, the upper part has acquired an enormous kinetic energy
and a signi?cant downward velocity. The vertical impact of the
mass of the upper part onto the lower part stage 4 applies enor-
mous vertical dynamic load on the underlying structure, far ex-
ceeding its load capacity, even though it is not heated.”
with the actual observed events:
http://s267.photobucket.com/albums/ii303/frankverismo/collapseseq.jpg
The top segment simply disintegrates as it descends and in no way falls as an intact unit. As such, the ‘enormous vertical dynamic load’ simply doesn’t exist. Drop a closed sack of sand on someone from 10 floors up and you’ll probably kill them. Drop only the sand and the dynamic load is so dispersed as to be virtually harmless. Note also that as the upper part descends, the intact floors below remain stationary.
A door I had hoped to close merely opened wider. Science cannot explain events in a vaccuum – they have to accord with the observed phenomena or they are without merit.
Further investigation only seemed to throw up more problems that it solved. For instance, the 47 steel columns that
form the vertical load-bearing core of the towers are approx 6 inches wide at the roof, tapering down to a colossal 4 and a half feet where they meet the bedrock. Not only does the building self-destruct through the path of most resistance, that resistance is increasing by several orders of magnitude. That this can be achieved by the actions of a disintegrated upper section at roughly 1.5 x freefall speed, to me, stretches credibility beyond breaking point.
Count the body-bags, count the body-bags…
yeh right larry ‘industry experts’ means Frazers offhand calculations that demo would require hundreds of explosive charges placed everywhere, OR a plane crash … and an ‘architect’ called ‘chris’ who cant generalise about the properties of steel alloys used, claims aircraft strikes arent considered in skyscraper design and then misquotes airliner weights when its pointed out that they are -and then just resorts to bemoaning others lack of expertese.
And the Jews werent blamed ‘fairly immediately’ they have only just been mentioned by a very uncharacteristic commentor.
You are just full of crap and hysterical jinks larry.
Hi All,
I’m still looking for the video clip I described at January 28, 2010 3:30 PM.
Anyone?
Sorry Clark I didnt see that bit of News. Remarkable that you recall it after all this time!
Hi Crab,
it struck me as incongruous at the time, which is why it lodged in my mind. Of course, my recollection could be wrong, which is why I’m after the clip.
There was lots of stuff that day that was odd, like deja vu. A friend ‘phoned, he said “put the TV on, you just won’t believe it”, and you know what? I never really have. I got the TV going between the impacts, and sat there wondering if there’d be another, and there was. I looked at the burning tower, sort of knowing that it shouldn’t collapse, but also knowing that it would. Somehow, I wasn’t surprised to hear about Building Seven in the evening.
So it’s probably all my fault, a figment of my warped imagination somehow made real.
Have you visited the “Global Consciousness Project”?
http://noosphere.princeton.edu/
Apparently, the whole world knew it was going to happen before it did:
http://noosphere.princeton.edu/911formal.html
I’m totally confused with UA93 data:
Here is another analysis in a video presentation:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread336720/pg1
Part of the problem with all this is the way people keep overstating things. It seriously reduces the chances of converging on the truth…
On second thoughts, I overstated that; the quality of argument here has generally been pretty good.
“WT7 collapsed for no apparent reason”
did you happen to notice the building falling on it?
“Frazer, my friend also destroys land mines and UXO’s and believes 9/11 wa an inside job.?
If that’s true, he should speak up. Compared to some of the silly gooses that serve as “experts” for the inside job hypothesis, his expertise on the subject would be GROUNDBREAKING.
However, I don’t think it’s true. I don’t think he exists.
“did you happen to notice the building falling on it?”
No, but I saw it get a liberal coating of dust.
Hi Clark,
I wasnt expecting to see the tower/s collapse, when i did i new they werent just collapsing/falling apart/toppling, they were doing something that begged explaination… I bought the first ‘structural’ explaination documentary i saw, until i checked on the controversy and found that the documentry had completely omitted the towers internal structure…
Anyway, it was later i started picking up on cognitive stunts, the fake obl video, the closing of the statue of liberty, the ill glamours in news reporting… I cant be sure about the extents and details of population perception control involved, so i dont dwell on the subject, but I cant deny the towers collapse were never properly investigated or explained.
Greater thinkers and doers than i might get round to dealing with it all someday, in the meanwhile i have my little well meaning unrelated projects. And ongoing curiousity and shame at the suffering in the world.
The princeston noosphere project looks like a pretty game to me, i could have a dig in their data and graphics sometime – it looks etherial. Im of the Derren Brown school of conciousness these days, but i do hold onto a little dream of paraphysical concious effects :]
twas i again’ but nighto’