A great many people are asking me why I am not leaving the Lib Dems. Well, I am a party member because of John Bright and John Stuart Mill. I am not leaving it because of a nonentity like Nick Clegg.
I am hugely angry over tuition fees. The policy itself, with the effective withdrawal of the state from university teaching and the reinforcement of social division, is a terrible disaster. The blatant display of political opportunism and bad faith by Cless and his ilk will poison politics for a generation.
But not only am I staying in the Lib Dems, I am seeking actively to recruit students. A very high proportion of the student vote went to the Lib Dems at the last election. Those genuine Lib Dem voters are absolutely entitled to join the party. They voted Lib Dem – this is not entryism from outside.
Every Lib Dem MP must win a majority of a vote of his local party members to be reselected.
Under clause 11.7 of the Federal Constitution if a sitting MP wishes to be reselected they have to either:
win a majority vote of the members present at a local party general meeting (conducted by secret ballot)
or
If that resolution is defeated then the MP can request a ballot of all members of the local party.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-time-to-end-the-special-treatment-for-sitting-mps-22319.html
I want to see many, many students join the party, in places like, oh, Sheffield Hallam, for example. The answer to the disillusion of students with our democratic system is for them to join the party and actively participate in, oh, Nick Clegg’s reselection vote, for example.
Suhayl – absolutely! Now where were we? Ah that’s right – talking about these lousy Lib Dems. And to think my wife and I campaigned for them, and actually had a giant “Vote Lib Dem!” poster in our garden. Oh, the shame of it…
“You would advocate voting for the BNP, would you, Alfred? A simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer would be much appreciated. Please feel free to be frank about this. Thank you.”
If you’re talking to me, I’m happy to be frank. First, how can you be so dumb as to ask? Or is the question just another smear?
I’ve said it quite plainly that the BNP is a scam, a front, a security services operation to discredit the only alternative to the course offered by the establishment parties.
Underlying the established party position is a commitment the NWO. The NWO, beloved of Fabian socialists (HG Wells wrote a book entitled the NWO), is the project for globalization and feudalization.
Like any empire, the NWO order seeks to destroy national identities. Destroying the British national identity is a basic goal of the lib-left in Britain from Jack Straw to Craig Murray. Here’s the program:
Bust up the country by promoting the narrow nationalisms of the Scotch, the Welsh and the Irish.
Deny, in the face of historical, archeological and genetic evidence, the existence of a British race.
Tear down the constitutional monarchy, the church and other basic institutions of the British state.
Submerge the British identity in the undemocratic EU.
Destroy the economic welfare of millions by off-shoring capital and technology, thereby destroying jobs and undermining self-confidence.
Undermine the identity of the British by promoting mass immigration, and forcing acceptance through propaganda and political correctness imposed by the K to middle-age school system.
The establishment is committed to the destruction of the British identity, which Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term, explicitly included within his definition of genocide.
So tell us, SS, are you for the destruction of the British nation or for its protection and preservation?
Would you vote for the BNP? Is that ‘yes’ or ‘no’, Alfred? That was my question. Thank you.
As for me, I am not for the destruction of anyone, certainly not British people, of which I am one. So my answer to your question, Alfred, is ‘no’. If the UK does stay together, I’d prefer it not to have imperial pretensions and for it to not participate in wars of imperial aggression.
Blog Commandand SS, are you really dumber ‘n a bag of hammers, or are you just pretending?
I didn’t ask if you were for the destruction of the British people. I asked are you for the destruction of the British nation.
For now, I’ll put you and Techie, down as genocide denialists and members of the settler alliance.
Fuck off Alfred, troll. You turn every thread to your favourite subject.
Sorry, Alfred, I’m cross with you. I should have written “please stop turning every thread to you favourite subject”.
Alfred, are you willing to answer my very simple question? Would you vote for the BNP if you still lived in Britain? It’s a really easy question. A ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer will suffice.
I do not wish to destroy any nation, certainly not the British nation. So my answer to your question is ‘no’.
Now, would you please consdier answering my very simple question. Thanks you. I appreciate it.
Yes, it is easier to change from inside, rather than standing outside shouting abuse and demanding change.
The role of the SDP in British politics is intriguing. The LDs are basically run by ex-SDP leading lights. So basically, we’ve got David Owenites running the country, the Little Tories, hand-in-glove with the Big Tories. Glenn, you’re not alone in thinking they might be a good option in a hung parliament – I don’t think may people imagined they’d get into bed with the Tories. They’d have had more credibility if they’d allowed a minority Toery Govt to take power and then acted as a balance of sorts within parliament. But that assumes benificent motivation.
Perhaps I’m being unfair. Any thoughts, anyone?
“please stop turning every thread to you favourite subject”.
Very polite of you Clark. I was responding to kathz, in what I thought, and still think, was a relevant way.
What I said seemed relevant also to comments by Ingo and others concerning the absence of real differences among the establishment parties.
When you think about that a bit you realize you’re faced with the need for radical measures or more of the same NWO crap you’ve had for decades.
Suhayl, glad to know you’re for the British nation. I’ll take you off the genocide denialist list.
As for your question, here’s what I said:
“the BNP is a scam, a front, a security services operation to discredit the only alternative to the course offered by the establishment parties.”
To ask if I have or would vote for them is as insulting and irrelevant as my asking if you still beat your wife.
Now, I’m off, Clark, you’ll be pleased to know. So feel free to commiserate with one another–without risk of further distraction from me–over the futility of being a Lib-Dem.
But you didn’t answer my question, Alfred. If I posed my question to everyone who contributes regularly or indeed sporadically to this blog, I suspect that the vast majority of our co-bloggers would have no hesitation or difficulty in answering it (in the negative). It is an easy question to answer. I asnwered your question right away, Alfred. So, Alfred why the unwillingness on your part to answer my simple question?
Incidentally, I do not “beat” anyone, Alfred, least of all my wife.
Thank you.
Yeah, Alfred, trouble was what you said made no logical sense. Either they are a ‘scam’ to discredit the mainstream parties; or they are presenting a popular alternative. You urge the latter. In fact, the vast majority British people do not support the violent far right; as for their policies, the wolf, though mangy, is clearly visible underneath the fleece.
Glenn: I find the idea that people can’t espouse certain policies because some nutter says he supports them too a bit odd, myself.
Ah, the Lib Dems.
Yes, before the General Election I urged people on this blog to support Norman Baker against the Tories in Lewes, remember? Well, he’s a Junior Minister now. Transport, I think (!)
Let’s see.
I recall what seemed to happen to another very independent-minded (esp. on the security services, etc.) Labour MP, Chris Mullen, when he got into government. He went silent, or so it seemed.
Ah, the Lib Dems.
Power. It’s a problem.
Technicolour, Alfred’s argument is that the BNP divert undeserved credit TO the main parties. This does not need doing. An opinion poll I’d like to see done would ask how many voters voted negatively, ie how many voted for a party they didn’t particularly support to try to stop a party or MP that they liked even less from being elected. People will vote for a lizard to stop the wrong lizard getting elected. The referendum in May could help to put an end to this.
Alfred: Surely you’re not declaring that you are about to disappear again? That’s so sad! Did someone (with the initials Suhayl Saadi) ask you a difficult question that you’d rather not answer, namely, “Would you vote for the BNP if you still lived in Britain?” How terribly unsporting of Blog Commander SS to throw up such a convoluted conundrum.
Answering that wouldn’t be a problem for you, would it? LOL!
Clark, one might even re-set the famous, if somewhat lumpen, John Lennon 1972 song, ‘Power to the People to those words:
“Power, it’s a problem
Power, it’s a problem
Power it’s a problem
Power-it’s-a-problem, oh yeah!”
Off topic, but an amusing description of Assange and the left’s dilemma with him:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/rodliddle/6561228/the-lefts-assange-doublestandard.thtml
Rod Liddle’s just not that bright, is he?
Being charged with rape, very probably for political reasons, is very different from being convicted of being guilty of rape.
Also if you read the latest version of the story from his accusers the crime he’s alleged to have committed is not rape but pressuring them to have sex without a condom – and the story sounds pretty far fetched.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden
By all means have a trial though with a full jury and all the evidence available.
I’m not into deifying Assange, but I didn’t find much in Liddle’s lazy piece to be genuinely amusing. The Spectator has long preached to a +very+ right-wing choir the evils of their opponents, and its readership titters politely every time a lefty is skewered. Does Liddle +really+ think Assange could black up and find a sympathetic Left? He’s not that stupid, is he?
Given all we know about McCain’s anger management problem – nevermind that he is more militarist and neocon than Bush – it was troubling that a Spectator editorial preferred the former for the US Presidency. I now reflexively cringe every time I see the masthead, and wonder if the international violence visited by the US machine might now be worse if the election had gone the other way.
Suhayl,
I found it quite strange that Norman Baker voted for the rise in tuition fees. Before he was considering whether to resign or not. I’ve always thought of him as being an honorable man who stood up to what he believes in though I must say I found it odd that he concluded Dr Kelly had been killed by Iraqis.
What I wonder is that when MPs get into government they have access to information that is excluded from the public. So their decisions are made on this rather than their desperation for power.
Incidentally, though it has probably been said on previous threads: feminists coming out in favour of Assange is not necessarily the sign of a conflicted Left.
Firstly, using an accusation of rape as a political weapon is anti-feminist, so feminists may choose to stand up for the accused. Secondly, the silencing of Assange/Wikileaks is part of an imperial power flexing its muscles so that it can continue to prosecute wars abroad that mainly kill women and children. Feminists therefore are likely to oppose that power.
None of this means that Assange is not a rapist. But, given the circumstances, that turning out to be the case is probably quite likely.
On topic. Picture the scene: students getting ready for the next demo, police enthusiastically getting the water-cannons ready, and listening to the CO tellin’ em not to overturn wheelchair users if they can possibly help themselves. Doesn’t look good for the cameras, apparently. Meanwhile a handful of jolly guys and gals, with cheery smiles and big yellow badges, start handing out Lib Dem Membership Forms to anyone who looks like a student.
Will the canvassers die the death of a thousand paper cuts? Will they be used as a battering ram against the police line? Or will they leg it into a riot-van for their own safety, and risk a truncheon ’round the lug ‘ole for their troubles? Find out in our next enthralling installment!
The BNP takes an economically Left position similar to the Green Party, and on the economic axis they’re both well to the Left of the three main parties.
But I’ve never regarded the BNP’s position to be one intended to discredit left-wing economics; firstly, most people aren’t aware of this strand of BNP policy, and secondly, I’ve always assumed it is there to mirror Hitler’s National Socialism.
Ruth: “What I wonder is that when MPs get into government they have access to information that is excluded from the public. So their decisions are made on this rather than their desperation for power.”
Maybe because when they are in power they have to pay attention to information they could ignore when they were out of power.
Oh, and the fact that the Lib Dems are in a coalition with THE TORIES! This means that they can hardly expect to be the ideological driving force of the government as the 30 percent of the population who voted Tory would be saying, “Oi!”
I think that politicians have sold people on the idea that if you vote for someone then they can make all your dreams come true and if they do not you can call yourselves disenfranchised or look around for some scapegoat such as…ah!…the Zionists!
“I found it quite strange that Norman Baker voted for the rise in tuition fees. Before he was considering whether to resign or not. I’ve always thought of him as being an honorable man who stood up to what he believes in though I must say I found it odd that he concluded Dr Kelly had been killed by Iraqis.”
I agree with you there, Ruth. A very odd conclusion indeed.
“On topic. Picture the scene: students getting ready for the next demo, police enthusiastically getting the water-cannons ready, and listening to the CO tellin’ em not to overturn wheelchair users if they can possibly help themselves. Doesn’t look good for the cameras, apparently. Meanwhile a handful of jolly guys and gals, with cheery smiles and big yellow badges, start handing out Lib Dem Membership Forms to anyone who looks like a student.”
Indeed. The crowd would be thinking, “Just how gullible do you think we are?”
This occurred to me, Craig, being a Sheffield Hallam constituent myself, though never having been a member of any political party I wasn’t really sure what the internal politics might entail. I would be very willing to offer my support to the Liberal Democrats on condition they get rid of Clegg; locally, in my particular (perhaps fortunate) case, though I see no particular reason the same sentiment need not apply nationally.
More urgently, I’d like to see Clegg face a by-election on the same day as the AV referendum. I was previously minded to vote ‘yes’ to AV, but find it very difficult to support anything Clegg-driven in any way, shape or form. It leaves a bitter taste in my mouth to think of him holding up a successful referendum as the price of hiking tuition fees. That is not my view of either compromise or coalition. If Clegg were to stand for re-election that same day, I could vote ‘yes’ to AV, and ‘no’ to his own good self. Here’s hoping, fat chance.
Clark,
Thank you for offering Techie a logical interpretation of what I said about what I believe to be the role of the BNP; namely to discredit populist polices. By failing to understand that point or by deliberately misrepresenting my contention, Techie and some others merely play what I take to be the BNP game.
Evidence? Only what is circumstantial. But consider:
Griffin is a good friend of Robert Fiore, who was wanted by the Italian police in in connection with the 1980 Bologna train station bombing and sentenced in absentia to 10 years’ imprisonment. Sounds like a Gladio connection to me — Gladio being a NATO secret army to combat populist/communist parties in Europe after WWII;
While publicly declaring that the BNP is not a racist organization, Griffin repeatedly makes racist remarks that are captured on film, made public and then implausibly denied. This is not the behaviour of a competent Cambridge-trained lawyer. And Griffin gives every evidence of being highly mentally competent.
Jon, the Nazi’s were socialist in name only. There economic policy was dictated by the great industrial, banking and communications cartels, as was true of New Labor and now of the Lib-Con government.
The BNP’s declared economic policy is essentially protectionist, i.e., anti-globalist and, hence, potentially highly popular. So you can be sure that the Lib-Con backers have every reason to discredit BNP economic policy, which might be considered closer to classical market economics than anything else. Neither Smith nor Ricardo envisaged a world where capital and technology would be exported on a vast scale, thereby destroying home industries. The common claim that Ricardo’s theory of comparative advantage is applicable to what is occurring under a regime of globalization is simply a lie propagated by mainstream economists who depend for a living on the state-funded institutions and mainstream media (or so, it was plausibly argued by, among others, the eminent Canadian-born economist John Kenneth Galbraith).
I suspect the BNP, much like the Nazis, only have some socialist policies in their manifesto in order to dupe people into backing them so they can set up their whites-only Fatherland.
There were some socialists and trade unionists who backed the Nazis – but ended up being purged or sent to the concentration camps (though as ‘political’ prisoners, so mostly not murdered by the thousand the way Jews, gypsies etc were.
It’s possible some of them genuinely support socialist policies – but what good are socialist policies if they’re only for the ruling group in an apartheid state? They’re not really socialist any more, because socialism is about treating everyone as an equal. And can you have real socialism without a reasonable amount of democracy? I don’t think so.
There is other evidence that Nick Griffin deliberately sabotages the BNP’s electoral chances: accusing his own campaign manager of attempted murder during the election campaign, for example, was a cool move. And there is much else, but it would be tedious to relate.
Duncan your notion that the BNP is much like the Nazis is nonsense if you mean their policies were like those of the Nazis. The Nazis were imperialists. The BNP are neutralist (in avowed policy)
aiming to withdraw from the EU and the war for global empire.
On democracy, the BNP claim to believe in massive devolution of power, i.e., they are more democratic than any of the established parties.
The BNP do not talk about a white’s only fatherland and publicly acknowledge the validity of the citizenship of legal immigrants.
So before spouting off further on the subject of BNP policy, at least go to their website and read what their proclaimed policies are.
And just because I happen to know what the BNP policies are, Suhayl, no it does not mean I am a BNP supporter.
But have to go now, give the car an airing — a lunch appointment 300 km out of town.