The passing of wood through glass is a remarkable feat. There are those who believe that royalty can perform miracles – there is a well developed cult around the vain and vicious Charles I, for example. It now appears that the presence of the future Charles III also has the ability to suspend the laws of physics.
The police have now issued extensive CCTV footage of the attack on the vehicle of Charles and Camilla on the fringes of the anti-tuition fee demonstrations, and the media have been replete with more nonsense about Camilla being poked with a stick. Yet of all the CCTV footage and numerous photographs, there is no evidence at all of this attack and all the images show the car windows to be closed – as they would be. One gets cracked but not holed.
There is in fact no evidence at all of any intent to harm the persons of the expensive royal layabouts, as opposed to discomfiting them and damaging their vehicle. It is fascinating that the media continually repeats the “Camilla attacked with a stick” line when it is so blatantly untrue. There appears to be a closing of ranks by the whole Establishment to perpetuate the myth – both the Home Office and St James Palace have deliberately fostered the myth by refusing to confirm or deny.
Personally I would not touch Camilla with a bargepole. I dislike violence at demonstrations. Demonstrations, good, riots, bad is my basic mantra. Attacks on people in a civil demonstration are always wrong, including attacks on the police unless in self defence. I did not join in the outrage at the prosecutions of violent demonstrators after the big Lebanon demonstration in London, because I personally witnessed the group hurling dangerous missiles at police who were neither attacking, threatening nor kettling them. That is absolutely unacceptable.
But a policy as appalling as the withdrawal of state funding from university teaching, carried out by Nick Clegg by one of the most blatant political breaches of fatih with the public in history, , is bound to provoke huge anger. The government reaps what it sows. Demonstrators should not set out to hurt people. But all the evidence shows they had no intention of hurting Charles and Camilla.
I have personally worked closely with the royal family’s close protection officers in organising two state visits abroad, and plainly they too could see there was no intent to injure – that is why weapons were not drawn. They deserve commendation rather than the crap spouted out by Sky News, who seem to think they should have gunned down the odd student.
All of which serves to take the focus off vicious police attacks on students and the use of kettling to detain people who were seeking peacefully to express their views. Kettling people in extreme cold and with no access to toilet facilities raises questions on illegal detention which genuine liberals in government would wish to address. What is it? Is it a form of arrest? What is the status of the fenced pens into which people are herded? Should they not be formalised as places of police detention, and individuals booked in and given access to lawyers? If that is not possible, this detention – which can be for many hours – is not lawful.
Duncan, not just the US media, the UK Guardian has done the same. Eat the messenger.
just tried to post the possible scenario of a US boycott of all goods on the relevant thread on the Guardian, they rejected it without displaying the rejection, for about ten times I tried.
Looks like they are knee deap it it, part of the US cyber bully campaign, despite the leaching and slobbers over the Wiki cables.
If we can spread this all over US networks, as fast as possible, they will soon see the erro of their ways.
We must not expect much suport from normal US citizens for such boycott, but many people will understand why we should attempt such peaceful reprisal.
Bankers bonuses – learn how wealth is created
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544&hl=en#
Huge confusion on twitter and elsewhere: MSM had to do an about-face, the Congresswoman is still in surgery. Sarah Palin taking *major* heat on her Facebook.
Twitter has temporarily dropped the Wikileaks story. It will return.
It’s a crazy and warped country Dreoilin. They now say it’s a child who is dead. Ms Giffords has had neurosurgery and is in a critical condition in intensive care. News channels going OTT. No such coverage for say the old Palestinian man shot in his bed by the IOF.
She supported the gun laws and also Israel which she visited not long ago to celebrate one of their damnable anniversaries. Trip cost $9000. Don’t know whether the US taxpayers paid for it or whether she went under the auspices of the Israel lobby there just like our MPs visit Israel paid for by the Israeli government and the Friends of Israel lobbies.
Ooer. Sorry Jon. I did keep refreshing to see if it had gone through but nothing came up. I just kept getting a server overloaded message. Have just returned and shock horror to see my comment x 4!
I give you an 80% chance that it was a 911 truther who did that in Arizona.
“No such coverage for say the old Palestinian man shot in his bed by the IOF.”
Absolutely, but there were tweets tonight that said that there is no difference between this shooting and the assassination of the Governor of Punjab. And others have tweeted that when Muslims kill they’re “terrorists”, and when a white American kills, it’s a “lone deranged gunman”. The nice thing is that on Twitter you get the lot when you follow the relevant hashtag …
Here is the tweet that Sarah Palin deleted straight after the shooting:
http://twitpic.com/3o8gzp
(the Facebook page is where she had certain Dems in cross-hairs, including Giffords)
“Ooer. Sorry Jon.”
LOL! we’ll all be saying that (occasionally) from now on.
Sarah ‘smiles when they shout “kill him”‘ Palin may have played a role in encouraging the mindset that led to the shootings
http://www.mycodedontstink.com/solutions/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24942#p654976
Mark Golding Jan 8 1:34 PM
Mark,
I share the sentiment, if only we could do that but I don’t believe human nature can be changed on anything other than geological time scale. Remember the experiment was attempted in the USSR, ‘a new breed of man..’ and all that.
Institutions do work though, if they are designed to amplify the good in us and to attenuate the bad. Do a thought experiment, imagine that any decision to go to war could be challenged by popular initiative in the UK. Can you see ordinary people, mothers and fathers, grandparents, students ?” passing up the chance to stop a war of foreign aggression? A million turned up to demonstrate against IRAQ 2 despite knowing if was going to be futile. How many more would have dropped everything if they thought they actually had a chance!
Given the opportunity, most of us will do the right thing, most of the time. Of course this has to be qualified by stating that people can be misled by misinformation. But even then as someone said, somewhere ?” you can fool some of the people all of the time, you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time.
Ingo Jan 8 2:18 PM
Ingo,
I think we are arguing at cross-purposes again. I am not proposing that Switzerland is a kind of paradise-on-earth but merely that it is significantly more advanced democratically than the rest of the ‘Western’ world. It has a long way to go and specifically I think its popular media are no more democratic than ours, though constrained by law from the worst excesses of bias.
When you mention cantons you are referring to the (con)federal nature of the Swiss state which of course is an important part of the Swiss system however it is not a pre-requisite for having popular sovereignty in the form of I&R which can be implemented at any level. I fact it is at the state (federal) level that I&R is most desirable.
Btw, I am not aware of Switzerland being on bad terms with its neighbours, can you give examples? I know that the Swiss have negotiated to participate economically in the EU on equal terms with member states whilst not giving up any of their political sovereignty. I do not see anything wrong with that, nor with Swiss nationalism.
Regarding ‘secretive’ banking laws, there is a lot of hype and myth about this. Swiss banks operate on ‘know your customer’ principle and they do in fact ask many questions before you can open an account. The problem that other jurisdictions have is that Swiss banks are not obliged to disclose information about their customers if the activities of these customers are not considered illegal in Switzerland (and the reverse is also true). No two countries’ laws are ever the same so there is potential for some disagreements. Incidentally it is not as if British territories are not home to numerous ‘tax havens’ and the same applies around the world. What’s your argument here?
The Swiss control immigration into their country very well, do you think they shouldn’t? Despite this, 30%+ of Zurich population are not Swiss citizens, and the figure for Geneva is around 45%. These people are not F1 drivers but they are skilled in various professions. Do you think this should be different? Are you aware that these foreign nationals (all, not just EU) have the right to participate in the polls at the cantonal level? Yes, to get naturalised as a Swiss citizen and have the right to participate politically at federal level, 10 years residence (5 for children) and good command of the local language are requirements. In smaller cantons, decisions of citizenship are even put to the vote at local assembly. Again, why is any of this wrong in your view?
Democracy is a mechanism for defending the interests of the people that participate in it. Evidently, that necessarily excludes the interests of those across the borders. Turning away rich bastards is just not a priority for the Swiss. You cannot expect them to do that while the rich bastards could just as easily go somewhere else. Democracy within a nation state has its limits.
“Jesse Kelly, meanwhile, doesn’t seem to be bothered in the least by the Sarah Palin controversy earlier this year, when she released a list of targeted races in crosshairs, urging followers to “reload” and “aim” for Democrats.Critics said she was inciting violence.
He seems to be embracing his fellow tea partier’s idea. Kelly’s campaign event website has a stern-looking photo of the former Marine in military garb holding his weapon. It includes the headline: “Get on Target for Victory in November. Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office. Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly.”
http://tinyurl.com/25kz25b
Thanks for the reply Euvgeni, the nature of a debate is to challenge positions, is it not.
I agree with your last paragraph but still wonmder whether the polish sommeliere would be acknowledged as eagerly into Swiss society that the successfull racing driver.
far from wnating to see you wriggle here, let me say this, I know that there are differences and I also know of the history of Switzerland.
Its central position in Europe makes it necessarry to get on with its peculiar mountain people and its not im possible.
Now to the issue of state cyberbullying and vindictive threats to third parties and networks.
I have managed to leave this comment on the Guardians website.
This cyber bullying of some 630.000+ supporters of Wikileaks releases, via subpoena of twitter, face book and many other networks, is going too far.
Its time we are responding.
I call for a boycott of all US goods until this cyber bullying and the state sponsored denial of server attacks and threats to third parties are stopped and until Bradley Manning is freed from his torture regime, or charged under the respective law.
No more crispy creme, big macs, coke or crocs for me, thank you and as for my first City account, it will be moved somewhere else, immediately.
somebody Jan 8 4:08 PM
Somebody,
Please do not assume, no it is not correct that people in Switzerland who cannot afford medical insurance are left to fend for themselves like in the US. There are a couple of things there that stop that from happening:
1) The US health insurance is voluntary which results in adverse selection ?” only the unhealthy rich buy it, ultimately leading to escalating insurance premiums, which prices out yet more people. A sort of vicious circle. However when the system is compulsory as it is in Switzerland and in the UK, this dynamic is broken and the premiums are much more affordable. There are further refinements e.g. not allowing individual risk-based premiums and instead basing the premium on average community risk. John Kay elaborates these ideas in his ‘The Truth About Markets…’ In short, premiums are a lot more affordable than in the US.
2) Everyone receives medical attention free at the point of need. Those that do not have insurance still get treatment and the costs are charged to the state (I think).
Well the point really is that if the Swiss people felt that they are being screwed on this, it really would be as simple as collecting some signatures for a referendum and voting for a reform. The Swiss cannot get stuffed by their government in the same way as the Americans can, or us Brits.
Regarding the profits from the insurance companies, again two points to make:
1) Strong competition on a ‘level playing field’ is enforced
2) Finances are transparent and a co-ordinating body exists to deal with surpluses and shortfalls (sorry don’t know more detail right now)
I think many of your questions may be answered in the report that I mentioned to Suhayl earlier, here is the link again:
http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/96411/E68670.pdf
I agree any plans to privatise the NHS in the UK are unlikely to benefit the population at large, not because the powers that be are unable to learn from the Swiss experience but because our government structures are so easily corruptible by elite interests.
technicolour & Dreolin
I think Glenn & somebody have both given useful definitions of ‘steaming’ if you are unfamiliar with the term in this context.
The cross-posting from Indymedia that I picked up on was one of several which were grouped under the heading ‘who were these masked… etc’- the implication being that these incidents involved police agent provocateurs. I think that doesn’t apply to the incident Ayden Lowther witnessed.
“Conscience is apparently an elastic parameter that depends on the perceived likelihood of our actions being discovered and punished by our peers.”
— evgueni
If you’re saying what I think you’re saying I don’t agree at all. Are you saying that our consciences only bother us if we’re likely to be found out?
Re. the Tuscon shooting:
Well, exactly. The sort of political PR mentality that would publish pics of people in crosshairs and urge supporters to have a go at them creates an atmosphere of incitement, particular in a culture where guns are so readily available and where the use of those guns, comparatively-speaking – is not uncommon.
The creation of an situation where it is almost guaranteed that some extremist will act on the suggestion (I note that the Sheriff who was close to the wounded and dead thinks the murderer was not acting alone; but of course that analysis may change) in a literal manner. I’m not saying that was the intention, but that may well have been the outcome and whatever the intention, the publicity material was, at the very least, extremely irresponsible. Is it legal? I don’t know. It ought not to be.
A nine year-old girl, a staffer and a judge are dead and a Representative is in a critical condition.
Palin, praying, is a dastardly hypocrite. These people don’t give a damn when gynaecologists and their staff are murdered; crimes which also are a product, it could be argued, of their incitement.
Sadly, there is no chance that this will lead to gun reform in the USA.
The point is, the Right view even mainstream Democrats like Giffords (married to a NASA astronaut, etc., etc.) as ‘fair game and dangerously leftwing’. This, perhaps, is a domestic manifestation of the militarised, supremacist and theocratic mentality on which Palin et al deliberately and cynically are riding towards power. It – witness the statement of the Sheriff that Arizona has become “the mecca for prejudice and bigotry” – may also be a bloody demonstration of the growing chasm in US society. Religious fundamentalism and its impact on civil society is noxious; it must be stopped.
So, just this week, three examples of the impact of religious fundamentalism on human beings:
1) Palestine/Israel: Jewish Fundamentalism:
http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2011/01/07/13-iof-bullets-penetrated-the-head-and-heart-of-an-elderly-palestinian-man/
2) Pakistan: Muslim Fundamentalism:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/06/pakistan-salman-taseer-assassination
3) USA: Christian Fundamentalism:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12143774
I’m not the Dawkins school to ‘blame religion’ as a whole, though there is a valid argument in that, but I do blame religious fundamentalism.
Rush Limbaugh and Co have been pushing the notion that liberals are “evil” for some time. (Gabrielle Giffords is a Democrat, but probably not a “liberal” by our standards.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD0GRCSWlwU
You’ll already know about this –
“WikiLeaks demands Google and Facebook unseal US subpoenas”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jan/08/wikileaks-calls-google-facebook-us-subpoenas
Now have a laugh at this –
“U.S. to Host World Press Freedom Day in 2011
The United States places technology and innovation at the forefront of its diplomatic and development efforts. New media has empowered citizens around the world to report on their circumstances, express opinions on world events, and exchange information in environments sometimes hostile to such exercises of individuals’ right to freedom of expression. At the same time, we are concerned about the determination of some governments to censor and silence individuals, and to restrict the free flow of information. We mark events such as World Press Freedom Day in the context of our enduring commitment to support and expand press freedom and the free flow of information in this digital age.”
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2010/12/152465.htm
When the United States carelessly kills its “enemies” by the thousand, no wonder an individual thinks he can do the same and shoot 18 or so.
Meanwhile, CNN said last night there was ‘no evidence of terrorism’. Read: no Muslims involved.
“in the context of our enduring commitment to support and expand press freedom and the free flow of information in this digital age.”
Yayy for hypocrisy.
You just got to love it …
Israel gears up for another round of butchery in Gaza:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=22647
Mark, no, the intention in posting the indymedia pieces was to ask who these people were, since they were plainly not students – were attacking students in fact. Not to suggest that they were all agent provocateurs. Thank people for definitions of ‘steaming’; sounds a similar method but robbery is not the intention here, either.
dreoilin, at 100am: Yes, that’s right. The thing is, tht is how far it’s moved, so that even someone like her, very Centrist, is regarded by the Right as a ‘dangerous liberal who must be killed’.
“3) USA: Christian Fundamentalism:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12143774”
There’s no indication that Christianity had anything to do with the shooting spree in Tucson. Completely the opposite in fact. And what has Palin got to do with this? Was the shooter a Palin supporter? er….no!
It’s no good being in denial, Confused of Tunbridge Wells at 11:19am.
“I’m not the Dawkins school to ‘blame religion’ as a whole, though there is a valid argument in that, but I do blame religious fundamentalism.”
I’m certainly not of the Dawkins school either – much as I enjoy his writings on evolutionary biology I think he is terribly naive about politics. However I think the distinction between religion and religious fundamentalism is a false one. Religions are fundamentalist by definition and will always behave so given their head. What matters is the extent to which the state permits (or finds useful) the expression of religious excesses.
In a strongly secular society a religion may have infuence beyond its worth but will still be unable to pursue much of its preferred agenda, constrained by secular law. The strength of this constraint varies from place to place and from time to time. I believe that in the USA this constraint is rapidly weakening and some of the right-wing responses to the shooting of Ms Gifford suggest that witch-burning could be on its way back. In the UK the sudden zeal for ‘faith’ schools (what an oxymoron) is equally worrying.
There’s a relevant and interesting book review here:
http://nthposition.com/dethinyefyreadefence.php
The Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party.
http://www.theocracywatch.org/
Palin tires to distance herself by removing the cross-hairs image from her website. So like the Islamist media organs who removed their incitement after the assassination of Salmaan Taseer.
http://www.bvblackspin.com/2011/01/08/critics-blame-sarah-palin-tea-party-for-shooting-of-congresswom/
Palin’s been in deliberate denial for some time now. You can’t help to foster particular attitudes and absolutist views and then disavow responsibility when someone – whether deranged, fundamentalist or whatever – appears to follow-through on them. Palin does this type of thing all the time. It’s a typical tactic of those politicians who courted extremist constituencies of any kind. But as dreoilin suggested, it’s not just about Palin; she’s only the latest manifestation of a long process of the deliberate radicalisation over a 30-year period of a sizeable section of the US populace.
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/sarah-palin-most-right-wingers-doesn