Osama Bin Laden had perpetrated many acts of violence. Blowback does not only affect states; Osama Bin Laden was killed by his former allies, those who used to support and arm him. Celebrations of someone’s death are always distatsteful, but Osama Bin Laden dealt in violent death and died a violent death. Of course, he who lives by the sword is a two-edged observation; it applies to Americans too, and I am afraid there will sadly be further violence in the short term.
There are questions to be asked about why Osama Bin Laden was killed rather than captured, when he would evidently be such a valuable intelligence asset. There are aspects of the official story which do not add up. I have seen the photo of his body on France 24, and plainly he was killed by a head shot; if you have to shoot someone you are trying to capture, you do not go for the head. Secondly we are told that he could not be captured because there was a fierce firefight of resistance at the house; but that no Americans were injured. So not that fierce, then. Aside from Osama Bin Laden, only two men and one woman were killed – so again, hardly a great pitched battle. The building was then torched, destrying the forensic evidence.
If Bin Laden did not kill himself, or get one of his own men to shoot him, it remains open to question why he was taken out with a headshot in a situation where resistance had been so ineffective that no American had been hurt.
It is yet another commentary on the state of Pakistan that Bin Laden was living in a large house in Abbottabad – which is by no means a backwater. It is also a major garrison town and the headquarters for military and intellligence operations in the Afghan frontier areas. (By chance, James Abbott, its founder, is one of the Great Game players I am currently studying). I simply do not believe that Bin Laden could live for years in a million dollar home in Abbottabad without significant parts of the Pakistani military and intelligence community knowing he was there.
Nice electioneering if you can arrange it.. pity its not a local issue or one with an AV connections, I would not be surprised to hear it mentioned in the district elections, anyhting but the real issues.
For example, who will GP’s decide to run their care services for the elderly, not to speak of palliative care, end of life solutions?
Will it be the best suited for the job, or the cheapest for their budget? frontloading in the NHS will lenghten waiting times by more than they have alrerady stretched to, just to highlight one issue.
How the barbarians watched it live. A sort of snuff movie.Perhaps it turned them on.
medialens –
Obama, Clinton watched live feed as Osama killed
Posted by margo on May 3, 2011, 10:47 am, in reply to “Re: Osama bin Laden’s Second Death”
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/obama-watched-live-as-osama-bin-laden-killed
Obama, Clinton and Biden watched via feed filmed from video camera affixed to soldier’s helmet – as Navy Seals put a bullet through OBL’s head and chest, after he apparently used a woman as a human shield. Did she get killed too? A bit like sitting in the execution viewing room in a Texas prison to witness the lethal injection, except that those events are backed by due process, whereas this was not.
US Seals have all the high-tech armoury and advantage. They could have surrounded the house, pulled the electricity, disconnected the dialysis machine, sprayed sleeping gas, shot the man in both legs, whatever – then arrested him and brought him back to face justice in a court of law. Instead, they shoot him point-blank – witnessed by the Nobel Peace Prize Winner who is a lawyer and should know something about process, who then hails it a victory.
Actually the double tap is standard practice for all SF soldiers around the world..a first shot to the head negates any chance of a suicide vest bieng detonated as it causes massive distruption to the electrical impulses of the brain hence no spasaming and of course,immediate death. The second follow up shot is purely to make sure the bastard does’nt get back up again..works for me !! With people like OBL you give them no chances whatsoever…maximum damage in minimum time..Mary, you have obviously never been in that SEAL’s shoes or you would know better than to suggest that crap above.
Frazer: The second follow up shot is purely to make sure the bastard doesn’t get back up again..works for me !!
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But of course in the case of INNOCENT ‘absolute bastards’ like poor Jean Charles de Menezes, a 3rd, 4th, 5th 6th and 7th shot may be required – just in case. All in day’s work for our SF heroes eh?
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And back on duty in a jiffy like nothing happened.
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But never mind – they’re on our side and we’re the goodies; so that’s all right then.
Frazer’s last two posts display his total lack of humanity. Am I right in thinking that he is some relation of Craig’s?
Mary,
Frazer is my cousin and, as he’s currently doing demining in the Congo, and is a professional humanitarian aid worker who has worked in places like Kabul, Grozny and Freetown, I don’t think he can be accused of a lack of humanity. Indeed the urge for revenge is only too human…
No one lives forever. If he hadn’t died fighting, he would have died in bed.
He will be replaced.
Let the evil doers gloat, let them scream and shout over blood.
Our dead are in heaven and theirs in HELL.
So they will smile over the killing of a Muslim leader, his wife and son as well as some other bystanders.
They will continue smiling as their economy collapses, and their country disintegrates like the soviet union.
And we will all do our bit to help it collapse.
Some here don’t like the way Osama used to sword to resist America. So if it was the sword you were against, show us by example how you can use peaceful means to resist America. How you can destroy its economy with boycotts.
The people who attack Osama’s violent resistance to America without showing by example how peaceful resistance can be more effective, are against resistance not violence.
I have to say I have been very impressed by the posts of Suhayl, Frazer and Clark. I hope my endorsement doesn’t lead to them becoming instantly unpopular.
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Look, I do think it is grisly to celebrate the deaths of anyone and, for the record, I did rebuke Craig somewhat for his misplaced levity at the news of that South African Nazi being hacked to death. I can completely understand a certain sense of satisfaction that some people will have had but dancing in the street is just too ghoulish for me. (I know, I know, I’m such a pussy about stuff like this). That said, I can’t condemn the US special forces for killing OBL. He quite frankly deserved it and taking him prisoner would have probably caused far too many problems. As it is I am rather surprised IF the US forces actually gave him the ceremonious burial at sea they claimed to have done.
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I think further to what Suhayl Saadi said there has to be a lot of questions about the wisdom of giving the Pakistani state billions of dollars of military aid. Just who is in command of this kind of money.
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Lastly, I don’t know why the “takehome message” of Benazir Bhutto’s interview with David Frost is that Osama bin Laden had been “murdered” by Omar Sheikh when her real message was that the ISI are a thoroughly worrisome organization in which there are people acting against the people of Pakistan and working in the favour of a most bigotted form of radical Islamism. Remember that we have seen this in action with the deaths of politicians who have opposed the Huddudh laws and the fact that prominent lawyers have been falling over themselves to protect the killers and also the oppression of religious minorities such as the Ahmedis and the driving from Lahore of many Hindus and Sikhs.
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If you’ll permit me I might remind you that many of the criticisms of the state of Israel that so many posters here complain of to the point of obsession (SOME of which I will agree are justified) are EXACTLY the problems that the military of Pakistan is guilty of.
“Frazer’s last two posts display his total lack of humanity.”
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Mary, this is utterly unfair. Who are you to say that Frazer lacks humanity? Besides, would you say the same thing if it were Netanyahu being shot?
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“How the barbarians watched it live. A sort of snuff movie.Perhaps it turned them on.”
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I don’t know why you think Obama was “turned on” to watch this event unfold. He ordered the mission and is ultimately in charge of it. However many other Americans reacted Obama was not triumphalist about it.
Just as they smiled at the death of Gaddafi’s son and grandchildren. In fact, anyone with as different skin colour is thought of as disposable trash by them. That is why Obomber is such a traitor to his Muslim brothers and sisters.
“No one lives forever. If he hadn’t died fighting, he would have died in bed.
He will be replaced.
Let the evil doers gloat, let them scream and shout over blood.
Our dead are in heaven and theirs in HELL.
So they will smile over the killing of a Muslim leader, his wife and son as well as some other bystanders.
They will continue smiling as their economy collapses, and their country disintegrates like the soviet union.
And we will all do our bit to help it collapse.
Some here don’t like the way Osama used to sword to resist America. So if it was the sword you were against, show us by example how you can use peaceful means to resist America. How you can destroy its economy with boycotts.
The people who attack Osama’s violent resistance to America without showing by example how peaceful resistance can be more effective, are against resistance not violence.”
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Arsalan, I also appreciate your message here just as I appreciated Anno’s and that is because at least you are quite honest that OBL was responsible for 9/11 and that he was killed by US special forces the other day. I saw today that the Taliban are of the same opinion and have issued a message declaring they will have revenge on the US for this. It all rather flies in the face of the delusions that many … er … alternative theorists have about the nature of the world but I do take a certain comfort in knowing that those who truly mean the West ill and act on those impulses have been struck a blow.
“Just as they smiled at the death of Gaddafi’s son and grandchildren. In fact, anyone with as different skin colour is thought of as disposable trash by them. That is why Obomber is such a traitor to his Muslim brothers and sisters.”
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Mary, don’t you think it less racist to believe that Osama bin Laden doesn’t get a dispensation for his skin colour? And don’t you think it less racist to believe that Obama shouldn’t be vindicated by the likes of you for the colour of his skin either? Don’t you think that it is in fact racist to think that Obama should be vilified by the likes of you purely on the basis of the colour of his skin? And haven’t you heard that Obama is not actually a Muslim and that it is only ignorant racists who think that? And haven’t you heard that it shouldn’t matter if Obama actually were a Muslim?
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But anyway, I am so sorry for your loss.
Let’s not pussyfoot around this issue any longer, it’s been evident for many years that no planes hit the World Trade Centre. Photoshopping has been a hallmark of the real 911perps since the beginning. This is just another digitally fake ruse to get the public waving their flag again.
“Let’s not pussyfoot around this issue any longer, it’s been evident for many years that no planes hit the World Trade Centre. Photoshopping has been a hallmark of the real 911perps since the beginning. This is just another digitally fake ruse to get the public waving their flag again.”
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You see, this is exactly the kind of thing which makes the Truth Movement look like morons. Oh, too late. Now, are you simply one of those disinfo agents that certain Truthers think are there to discredit the more reasonable ones or do you truly, genuinely believe this nonsense?
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In fact, I must admit that a friend of mine started believing in this nonsense genuinely and that is why I find it laughable that certain “Truthers” use the word “disinfo” for crazy theories. The point is that any theory you can think of is genuinely believed by some.
Bin Laden – over-egging the pudding? – and already we witness anyone asking impertinent questions about the raid is dubbed a ‘death-denier’ and thus deranged – or silenced.
No Navy Seal was killed in the mission?
“I saw a helicopter hit, and it crashed to the ground in flames.” BBC News
Wajid Hasan – Pakistani Ambassador to the UK
“A helicopter went down, we know that. We think it may have been hit by a missile, but we’re not sure where from.”
Bin-Laden was buried at sea?
This is a political move to ensure nobody questions the DNA evidence.
It took 6 months to plan the mission on this compound?
An SAS friend told me the raid would have taken a week since the Pakistan ISI knew the location since August of last year(2010) according to intelligence sources.
The ISI have now ‘copped’ big time because the CIA failed to inform them of the raid when it was agreed the scenario, ‘would help bind Pakistan/US cooperation against terrorists.”
And of course the severed head?
The photoshopped head was released by Al Jazheera in 2009. It was a fake then and it’s a fake now. But somebody with authority must’ve put it out, because AP accepted it for ten hours.
In response to Mary’s revulsion at Obama and Co watching this operation live.
It seems this is normal practice for the American administration before any big historic news event.
Just as Bush was watching live on a TV screen the first strike on one of the World Trade Center towers on 9/11 whilst on a visit to a school.
Cruff – you are either joking, an idiot or an unpaid stooge for the Alliance black propaganda unit. Bog-off back to your Israeli sponsored free Wiki!
The details of this murder mystery are a mere distraction as they would not inform us on the question of what is to be done. Whichever way you look at it our government is out of our control and we ought to be thinking of ways to remedy that. How can we effect democratic change? I suspect not by indulging in this sort of intellectual onanism. Sorry for the strong words but we seem tot be going round in circles.
I find myself both in agreement and disagreement with quite a lot of people here 🙂
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I sympathise with Mary’s instinct in finding the cheering of a death distasteful. I take the same view as I did the assassination of Saddam Hussein – both individuals were violent and repressive, and probably both psychopathic (i.e. totally unable to feel compassion for others). That all said, as Craig says, they chose to live by the sword.
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But I don’t intend to have a street party. As an amateur graphic designer, I rather fancy putting together an advertisement, consisting of two photographs placed side by side, prompting the viewer to make a comparison between the two. One would be the recent celebrations in Manhattan of the death of OBL, and the other would the celebrations in Pakistan after the twin towers were brought down. Two sets of people, thousands of miles apart and massively culturally distant, each revelling in the deaths of other people. I’d put them on billboards around New York and Pakistan, but I figure I’d be strung up by folks on both sides for wanting to do so.
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You could object and say that OBL was a terrorist, and the 9/11 victims were innocent – and I agree in both cases. But like it or not, 9/11 was part of the blow-back of deliberately murderous policies operated by the US for the last fifty years or so. (We can take this view at the same time as condemning the action, incidentally). 9/11 was, according to OBL et al, a retribution for US-destabilised elections the world over, democratically elected leaders unrecognised or deposed or assassinated, families murdered, nuns raped, paramilitaries trained, leftists and trade unionists disappeared, and capitalism’s greed-driven causes advanced whatever the social cost. This line of reasoning prompts me to think that celebrations over OBL’s death are in some way also a celebration of all of this murderousness and injustice. The US media, of course, don’t mention this nearly enough to pierce the silly collective patriotic hysteria.
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As well as cheering symbols of imperialism, the revelling at ground zero is also a celebration of the reversal of judicial process, just like Guantanamo and a million other avoidable injustices we all know well. If OBL is indeed dead, and the reports are accurate, then it sounds like he could have been captured, but was summarily executed instead. So much for our terror (ahem – military operations) being better than theirs.
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Would I cheer if Netanyahu were to be shot? I am not sure if this was a sly dig, or asked in good faith, but I think it’s (accidentally) an excellent question. For myself, I am not sure, to be honest. I still don’t like the idea of someone’s death being a positive thing, but on the other hand, everyone likes a bully being taken down a peg or two. I certainly wouldn’t *support* more terrorism, but I might be inclined to consider Israel and its neighbours safer without him.
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I think subconsciously I view the West’s “official enemies” as underdogs fighting against the brutal advance of imperial capitalism. That is not the same as supporting those official enemies; in some cases I do (Chavez) and in some cases I don’t (OBL, Hussein).
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As to whether Obama is a “traitor to his Muslim brothers and sisters”, well, I don’t think he’s a Muslim. But then, culturally speaking, he’s not very black either; he’s culturally shifted to the white, male, Christian power elite, and has absorbed the requirements of capitalism to the extent required of a US president. I agree that he no longer demonstrates a convincing desire to help the poor and the oppressed – I am still waiting him to put on his walking shoes and join the union marches, like he promised before he was elected! Hillary and Condi can be said to have renounced their gender in much the same way, having ratcheted up their levels of militarism; in a sense, their peculiar brand of feminism says “woman can kill civilians just as well as a man can!”
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Anyway, I suppose this is the same old same old. The amorphous collective known sometimes as Al Qaida will strike back, and some more innocent people will be killed. Maybe some nutter settlers in the Occupied Territories will be attacked. The US will operate some flying robots to blow up some shepherds and their children in Pakistan. This will feed into more Jihad extremism. The US military-industrial complex will get fatter, and will keep bolstering Israel. Arms profits will go up, just as the deaths will.
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I read recently that the administration in Egypt is planning to open the crossing into Gaza, which (to me) was an unexpected bit of good news. Not much of that about in all this madness, sadly.
Well the good news is that at least he got to watch the royal wedding !
“Sorry for the strong words but we seem to be going round in circles.” No problem ‘Evgueni’ – this is the ‘modus operandi’ considering the content – this thread will become huge, barely navigable, confusing, argumentative and ultimately boring. Burying the truth in noise/clutter is one of the first principles in the official debunkers little black book.
I just read this fantasy report.
The first idea was to bomb the house using B2 stealth bombers dropping 2,000-pound JDAMs (joint direct attack munitions), according to ABC News. But Barack Obama rejected it, saying he wanted definitive proof that the Saudi was inside. “The helicopter raid was riskier,” said one US official. “[But] he didn’t just want to leave a pile of rubble.”
Wow, just how sensitive and compassionate he is. Nobel Peace Prize laureate, once again, is showing us his human side, and he proves that the award had come into right hand. I, honestly hope, he is going to be the Saint.
Now, what is coming is what I call pejoratively: Creators of Parallel History – offensive of documentaries, so-called witnesses, and story tellers of dramatic event at corporate media outlets: How the finest forces on the earth captured and killed the Most Wanted. And how justice was being served!? I remember when the Serbs shoot down so-called stealth F-117, and how the pilot was “rescued”. Inevitable story followed, US went is Damage Control mode, or PR if you will, with the aim to explain: how they shoot down venerable and invisible piece of US technology?
I found out that Rumsfeld tweeted: “So I’m told by a reputable person they have killed Osama bin Laden. Hot damn.”
Thanks Guardian – The Creator of Parallel History. Priceless.
“In response to Mary’s revulsion at Obama and Co watching this operation live.
It seems this is normal practice for the American administration before any big historic news event.
Just as Bush was watching live on a TV screen the first strike on one of the World Trade Center towers on 9/11 whilst on a visit to a school.”
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Yawn!
“Cruff – you are either joking, an idiot or an unpaid stooge for the Alliance black propaganda unit. Bog-off back to your Israeli sponsored free Wiki!”
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Mark Golding, this is very rude!
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Cruff is by no means putting forward ideas that are any more sillier than your own so I think you owe Cruff an apology.
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“Israeli black propaganda” indeed! If anyone thought someone was here to spin ideas to ridiculous that it could only discredit the Israelis it would be you. Earlier on you were imploring us to watch some ridiculous video of Jim Carrey explaining quantum physics or something. 😉 You are SOoooo Zionist! 😉
“As to whether Obama is a “traitor to his Muslim brothers and sisters”, well, I don’t think he’s a Muslim. But then, culturally speaking, he’s not very black either; he’s culturally shifted to the white, male, Christian power elite, and has absorbed the requirements of capitalism to the extent required of a US president.”
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Jon, are you calling Obama an Uncle Tom? This type of thing is quite unpleasant I think.
2011 – The Year of Redemption
President Obama has gotten ridden of the millstone (around his neck) left by Bush (Osama not a priority) and indeed his US intelligence apparatus protected the Al Qaeda operatives (for a good cause? – The War on Terror). That leaves an albatross (The “road map” for peace or a plan to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict) and finally the weight of 9/11 revisited (the pressure is growing amongst bereaved families and responders).
Hamas and Fatah have signed an accord – the first stage of a new process to form a Palestinian state by year-end I predict. Israel will lose Nentanyahu in the foot-steps of Uzi Arad, his top security advisor – good riddance and Obama’s neck becomes lighter.
We are still left with information found on the hard-drives from the Abbottabad compound. What will they reveal? They will of course reveal old plans connected with the attacks of 2001 on US buildings by planes and probably a planned dirty nuke plot as well. Whether Obama has the balls to order an official public inquiry into 9/11 – I don’t think so – That weight will remain until passed to his successor end 2012 – who will that be?
2012 is rebirth so Gary E Johnson, obviously – We bought him back from death to change America – Americans are sick of eroding civil liberties, alcohol, federal bail-outs, *two wars* and synthetic pain-killers.
Nota Bene – Agent Cameron – you have time to change direction. In the wake of Chilcot announcing the Iraq war *was* illegal I suspect the baton will be handed to Vincent Cable in a rather strange set of circumstances. Let’s see – damn! my crystal ball is dimming again.
Angrysoba, we’re agreed that such a thing would be quite unpleasant, and no, I’m not saying that at all. Perhaps I didn’t quite capture the nuance of what I mean.
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I’m trying to describe a process by which a person of a particular constituency (of race, gender, or whatever other characteristic) has their views modified by a power elite via a process of gradual and almost imperceptible erosion. For example, these days Western journalists hob-nob with politicians to the extent that they begin to take on the views of politicians, and then one day Cameron announces “it is not a problem” for him to be socialising with NI executives whilst his government is making a decision on media plurality involving the very same corporation. The conflict of interest is enormous and is still excused and ignored; some many years ago, in the days when the ‘fearless reporter’ prototype was widely admired, this would have been quite unthinkable.
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Some of the Bush gangster clan were asked by reporters some years ago if there was a conflict of interest between a politician being in favour of the invasion of Iraq, having the ability to choose Halliburton as a preferred rebuilding supplier, and owning shares in Halliburton. Rumsfeld, I think it was, seemed exasperated at the journalist’s cheek, and replied that the query had been answered adequately before (though of course it had not, to the satisfaction of progressives). Again, somewhere along the line, the media set didn’t think this was much worth pursuing, perhaps for the same cosy reasons as the Cameron/NI story.
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So, back to Obama. He was elected on a platform of progressive social change, but appears to have substantially changed his mind on most progressive things. Israel is still a monster than needs containing, he swapped a great opportunity for universal healthcare for a massive donation to the private healthcare industry, the military-industrial complex is still in the ascendancy, the banking sector stole billions in a legalised bail-out heist from the Treasury, and the inequality gap is getting worse. Obama was either bought or wooed. Like most people in power before him, he’s spent so much time in the company of the financial/corporate elite, he’s taken on their goals unconsciously.
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I describe this process is terms of race because his election was made possible by a black, left-Democratic bloc, which he appears to have abandoned in favour of the traditional white/male/Christian/Republican*/capitalist power elite. As I say, I don’t think this process is fully conscious, but it is happening (or has happened) nevertheless.
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(* I say Republican, since I think Reagan started this process, along with his Chigaco Boys and in cahoots with Thatcher. But these days so much of the neocon agenda is supported by the bulk of the Democratic party, it seems unfair to single out just the Republicans.)
Jon, if you think bin Ladenism is a rejection of the treatment of leftists and trade unionists, you are clearly unable to read a book and otherwise understand anything about objective history. You’re deluded.
Jon, I can somewhat understand the disappointment that many felt when they discovered the reality of an Obama presidency and compared it to their own fantasies of an Obama presidency. The problem for me, and I was telling Democrat friends at the time, is that Obama hardly ever stood for what they pretended he did. Not only that, but very often Obama himself was quite clear that he didn’t stand for what they thought he did. Obama got a huge amount of stick (FROM REPUBLICANS!!!) for saying that he would, if the chance arose go into Pakistan – whether Pakistan liked it or not – to kill bin Laden. Even McCain and Palin went crazy over that.
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Now, I still think Obama let people down over Guantanamo. This place is a running sore that should have been fixed and Obama hasn’t had the balls to follow through on it. I hope that now he has a bit of cache with the electorate he will try something. But do you notice what is difficult about such democratic places as the US (I know! I know! It aint THAT democratic you’ll say!). The problem is that Obama didn’t get elected to a position with the powers of an autocratic king. That means that he’s still quite weak despite being the president. He has to fight against inertia, entrenched business interests, other elected bodies, the birthers, the teabaggers, the Supreme Court, the Congress, his own party and various other things that end up swamping him to the extent that it makes him look like some kind of tool of the MIC. I think there is a fair amount of truth to the existence of the Military Industrial Complex but it is of a quite different nature to that which many conspiracy theorists think.
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By the way, when you say “Israel is a monster and needs containing” what exactly do you mean. Israel is this tiny sliver of land on the East of the Mediterranean. It has something like six or seven million people living there and, by the way, it has universal healthcare – exactly the thing you criticized Obama for not implementing. Israel also has a very lassez-faire approach to homosexuality and recognizes (even if it doesn’t allow) gay marriage and openly gay servicemen and women. Israel aint perfect and should allow interreligious and civil marriage in my opinion but describing the country as a monster is way too hyperbolic. I’ve already pointed out that many of the criticisms of Israel also apply to other countries such as Pakistan but I don’t see or wouldn’t expect to see people on panel shows and debates questioning whether Pakistan has the right to exist.
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One thing that surprises me somewhat is that it is right-wingers (sometimes real nut-job right-wingers) who support Israel when the left have so much more in common with some of Israel’s social policies.
This is for Clark and anyone else who is interested in the same hippy shit I’ve been into recently:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz_R2y1oAzw&feature=fvwrel
Angrysoba, what makes people regard Israel as a “monster” is its treatment of Gazans, Palestinians and Israelis of Arab origin, its illegal expansionism, and its attacks upon Lebanon, etc. The fact that it is so small and yet does such harm only worsens the matter. Oh yes, and its nuclear arsenal.
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Thanks for the Koyaanisqatsi link.