After reminding people that because government is bad, it does not follow that all its opponents are good, here is a terrible reminder that the British government remains a greater force for evil than the rioters.
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Possibly a rude and stupid question – but isn’t your career and pension (?) built on the British government and its policy of war, rape and pillage?
What took you so long to realise that it is a force for evil?
Joe,
I would argue that post 1945 and before Bush and Blair, it was far from an unqualified force for evil, and did good on occasions (and evil on others, like Diego Garcia). I think the Blair/Bush years were a game-changer.
Mindful violence by those that accuse the alienated poor and dispossessed of mindless violence. This is unfettered Imperialism as the highest stage of Capitalism and government’s are only the system’s servants.
I’ve always believed that if voting changed anything fundamentally they’d make it illegal.
…if you believe Ghadaffy’s friends, who are not famous for their veracity.
Roger,
I agree; but sadly nor are NATO. The truth is, of course, that a bombing campaign without civilian casualties is an impossibility.
“a bombing campaign without civilian casualties is an impossibility.”
Of course.
But have NATO said anything about this alleged incident?
after all, there was the case a fewmonths ago where Ghadaafy’s propaganda team exhibited a child injured in an accisent as a victim of NATO air raids, which casts doubt on their every claim since then.
Roger, NATO is an organisation including many countries. We don’t hear much about where and when and who NATO countries are bombing in the west. Iraq was bombed for many years before Bush and Blair’s so-called “war on terror”. Bombing with depleted-uranium warheads was so commonplace it was not worthy of mention in the mainstream media in England. One day the financial crisis, hopefully, will bring this quest to steal foreign oil to an end. I hope the perpetrators are brought to account.
Regardless of whether the reporting of this particular event is entirely accurate, the governments of the west are the main proponents of terror in the world today and their infliction of violence is at a far higher rate than that of even the most destructive rioters.
Roger, you’re right.
Not only is there evidence of false claims, but you need to consider who benefits. Gadaffi’s regime is close to being strangled; he’s desperate. The bombing is giving real advantage to the rebels. What benefit does it give to the NATO countries to bomb innocent people? Surely part of the West’s policy is that the people of Tripoli will rise up once the rebels get close enough? Do you think they’ll do that if there has been heavy civilian casualties? And don’t forget they’ll be the question of who gets the best oil deals. And please don’t think that the Libyan people are stupid enough to be ripped off. They are aware, they have guns and experience in fighting and are not frightened of death.
There is of course no advantage in bombing civilians,but it is going on in any case.We had this Goebbels/Kafkaesque Nato briefing last week where they tried to legitimize bombing a TV station (with 5 civilian casualties) because of the life threatening broadcasts. NATO is poisonous and we are part of that !! There is other uncut Libyan coverage which has real emotion and anger and desperate attempts to revive the dying.NATO hasn’t told the truth as to why they are there,so why should they admit to killing the very people they say they want to protect.
How would we feel if the UN suddenly decided that the rioters in Tottenham should be protected ??
Ruth, I think you are being (understandably) naive. You have get very cynical and world-weary before you can bring yourself to understand how dreadfully our “leaders” are capable of behaving.
I think the NATO plan is essentially to turn Libya into what they call a “failed state” – like Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan… Oddly, wherever the Western do-gooders go with their guns and bombs, states seem to fall apart into chaos and anarchy. That makes it far easier for powerful corporations to send in mercenaries and take whatever they want. There is no longer a powerful “local” government to resist them – or to tax them.
If that is true, they don’t give a monkey’s bum how many civilians they kill. Just as long as they can go on convincing most of our voters that it isn’t happening.
Tom,
I most probably have suffered more at the hands of the state than anyone else on the blog including Craig. I know exactly what the state gets up to and surely its common knowledge NATO or our government don’t give a monkey’s arse how many people they kill.
I totally disagree that the NATO plan is to turn Libya into a failed state. They want to turn it into a state that is stable and more compliant to the needs of certain Western states.
I believe the West especially the US thought they’d tamed Gadaffi after the Lockerbie settlement but not so. You say, ‘There is no longer a powerful “local” government to resist them – or to tax them.’ If the Libyan people don’t get what they want and they’ve waited over 40 years, they’ll resist. Don’t forget the power of the tribes and the thirst for freedom of the young people.
@ Craig,
I just heard Cameron use the phrase ” phoney concerns about human rights”.
Now – let me put my point in clear focus:-
Hypothetical expression – Gadaffi – if he were to say – ” phoney concerns about human rights” – on the one hand.
Cameron’s expression – ” phoney concerns about human rights” – on the other hand.
So –Cameron shelves human rights concerns when he is facing rioting youth on the streets of London and other major cities in England.
And – the Libyan leader – facing armed insurrection against his country and the established government – as he is – so – what is he to do….?
I shall await the answer – via further bombing of the Libyan people – secretive supplying of arms from the US/NATO – and full support by way to the “humanitarian aggression” – which is the mission of the US/NATO.
Stephen Morgan said:-
“Regardless of whether the reporting of this particular event is entirely accurate, the governments of the west are the main proponents of terror in the world today and their infliction of violence is at a far higher rate than that of even the most destructive rioters.”
And Dr. Martin Luther King said:-
“…and I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today — my own government.”
Beyond Vietnam: A Time to Break Silenc
By Rev. Martin Luther King
4 April 1967
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=1781
And
A riot is the language of the unheard.
– Address given in Birmingham, Alabama (1963-12-31)
Maybe soon a great leader will emerge in England and make a moving speech which might be entitled:-
“ I have a dream beyond the bombing of Libya and the riots in England”
“And – the Libyan leader – facing armed insurrection against his country and the established government – as he is – so – what is he to do….?”
Just how did Ghadaffy extablish his government?
He showed a lot of enthusiasm for disestablishing governments he disapproved of, so he can hardly claim that whatever is, is the will of god.
Stephen Morgan: “the governments of the west” are comparatively moderate in their slaughters, certainly compared with their potential capabilities. Ironically, the problems come from their habit of either overthrowing or supporting attempts to overthrow established and feared tyrants who don’t need to commit many murders= comparatively speaking- any more. As a result the opportunities for murder become much greater. Take a look atthe figures; it isn’t “the west” but those vying to become its allies and their opponents who do the really big killing.
Roger – take a pick between King Idris and Gadaffi. Which Middle East country is ruled on the basis of Western style elections. Even in the “ethnic state of Israel” the only way that political dynamic can be sustained is by way of disenfrancisment of Arabs living within Israels. In your next post give me the list of Middle Eastern countries with rulers in power, based on Western style elections.
When will it end?:-
Vietnam – 500,000 Asians dead – 60,000 military personnel dead.
Iraq – over 1m Iraqis dead.
Afghanistan – research – put your own number
Libya – ?
And Cameron would have us believe:-
A. The problems on the streets of England’s cities ( are not home grown) – the problems and bombings of the Libyan people ( are somehow totally home grown – without influence by the bombings and supply of Western arms – and – not being prolonged by reason of the refusal by the US/NATO to accept the African Union’s roadmap and this is somehow credible and humane conduct)? It must be the height of illegality and criminality far in excess of anything we are witnessing on the English streets – but the world is being told that these are “humanitarian bombing missions” over Libya.
B. There is no co-relation between the privations in the major cities of England – the social uprisings on the streets of the cities – and the huge costs of supporting overseas military adventures pursued by Her Majesty’s Government versus applying funds to domestic needs. And
C. There is noble decency; humanitarian concerns; civilized conduct – all emanating from Her Majesty’s Government’s policies of bombing the Libyan people in the interest of human rights, democracy and peace:-
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28809.htm
Martial law?
Well, the legislative power to localise it, which I think we will see within the next two years or so, already exists in the form of the Civil Contingencies Act. This was passed during one of Tony’s many bursts of control freakery, some 2 months before the 7/7 operation.
In the background we’ve got the Master Commodity, oil, staying resolutely above $100 per barrel, even in the teeth of global near-recession. If the Peak-Oilers are to be believed, this is the future: low growth, high prices, high inflation. And the consummate, thoroughgoing, shafting of capitalism as we knew it – note the tense – through the Good Time years of easy credit and Third World misery.
Blood diamond, anyone?
How about a nice cup of Coltan…
Anyway, all that’s fucked. Consumerism and infinite growth. That model is on the down-slope.
So…martial law.
Here are some possible scenarios. There may be more
1) We start getting very very serious about Government investment in non-fossil fuel mobility, healthy food production, and much cheaper electricty – and all for the public good and with the profit motive COMPLETELY absent. We need to do that, across the UK, withing two years at most. No PR. No bullshit.
2) We slide into martial law – with all that implies for a free press, free movement, right of assembly, and elections – imposed as a response to massive stagflation stretching out 10-20 years because we didn’t do 1) Maybe martial law never gets lifted. Maybe it’s 1984.
3) Ordinary people form their own quasi-political movement and do something. Start by taking down the cameras, where-ever they are seen. This is the Big Leap of Faith that societies sometimes need to take. A high risk- high gain investment!
If anyone can slice me a different future…I’d dearly love a sandwich.
Toodle ooh the noo, as we say in the barrens of Wester Ross.
@ Roger,
You said :
So – in the instance of Vietman or Iraq that I cited above:-
1. The staged Bay of Tong King incident when a US ship was supposed to have been attacked by the North Vietnamese and President Johnson announced the “attack” a day before it happended ( i.e. he forgot the international date line and the actual international times). Is this war which claims to be one that was started by the North vietnamese.) This was his casus belli which resulted in 500,000 Asians dead and some 60,000 military. Consider to this day the effects of Agent Orange.
2. Again – Iraq – delpeted uraninum and its after effects – over a million Irais dead.
An 8 year war where the US supplied weapons to both sides between Iraq and Iran.
Then you post: “it isn’t “the west” but those vying to become its allies and their opponents who do the really big killing.” ?
You might have heard this performance at the Proms live last Friday or on TV last Saturday but if you have not you will enjoy the music, the scene and most of all, the spirit. The orchestra was the Simon Bolivar Orchestra of Venezuela, the choir was the National Youth Choir of Britain and the soloists were Scandinavian in Mahler’s ‘Resurrection’ 2nd Symphony. I actually wept at the end of this moving work.
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It is a reminder of the beauty of our world, and the vaulting imagination most of us can aspire to if the milieu is right. That our country is benighted and our very evil leaders are capable of bombing mummies and children in Libya and Afghanistan means we must cleave ever stronger to truth and the moral law. How hateful racial hatred is.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b013csn0/BBC_Proms_2011_Simon_Bolivar_Symphony_Orchestra/
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Only available for a few more days unfortunately.
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Some might not know that Venezuela, often the subject of US plotting against Chavez on behalf of the previous corrupt regime, has a very enlightened policy of teaching music in the schools and prisons.
{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Sistema} How about sommething similar here Cameron and Clegg? I think not. They just would not see it.
@ Mary,
“Chavez on behalf of the previous corrupt regime, has a very enlightened policy of teaching music in the schools and prisons.”
Please tell me more Mary – an area of study for me.
Craig: “..before Bush and Blair … [British foreign policy] was far from an unqualified force for evil..”
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A very rosy view indeed. Mark Curtis disagrees http://markcurtis.wordpress.com/books/web-of-deceit-chronology-of-british-foreign-policy/
well, CB, of the “milllion Iraqis” allegedly dead, how many were killed by the USA, how many by other Iraqis? Compare the nummber of Libyans killed by Idris and Ghadaffy. Why shouldn’t Ghadaffy be got rid of the way he got rid of Idris?
As for the Gulf War, the USSR suppied over 80% of Iraq’s weapons, Framce most of the rest, and Iran lost because the USA didn’t supply it with weapons.
@ Roger,
In my mind the options are not beteween two demons – but people can find themselves with choices that relate to objectively just results. You may at this stage disagree with me – but let’s debate.
“well, CB, of the “milllion Iraqis” allegedly dead, how many were killed by the USA, how many by other Iraqis? Compare the nummber of Libyans killed by Idris and Ghadaffy. Why shouldn’t Ghadaffy be got rid of the way he got rid of Idris?”
First “allegedly dead” – no – when dead – just dead.
Second – “how many were killed by the USA” – that is not the point. The real question you should have asked is – ” how many ended up dead because of the war started on a pretext of WMDs?”. Ask the right question – you get the right number – over 1m.
The questins to ask about Libya are these:-
1. Give the figure of Libyans killed by the government and the circumstances in which they were killed.
2. Comoare the official statistics for education, housing, social welfare ( i.e. even by going to the CIA Factbook – then revert to me with the statistics that relate to the Idris period and the Gadaffi period). Fair approach? If it is not – then tell me why is is not.
3. “Why shouldn’t Ghadaffy be got rid of the way he got rid of Idris?”
Answer: When you answer question 2 – I will give you to question 3.
Over to you.
Bless!
Bridget – Welcome, I have to admit I have missed your previous posts here.
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Craig said this, “I think the Blair/Bush years were a game-changer.” Yes, the ‘cold war’ had ended and with it the fear of a nuclear holocaust. Fear, the age old controller of thinking and doing had dissipated; a new fear was sought, one that would reach to the heart of all nations and perpetuate the management of our lives and the supremacy of our rulers.
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It took close on a decade for thinks tanks to prepare and plan for a new fear, Islamic terrorism, a revival of the Assassins. Political institutes in the West were witnessing Middle Eastern knowledge-derived economies, based on research and development, manufacturing and industry driven by revenue from indigenous fossil fuels; it was time to reverse an inevitable decline in the West’s economic advantage gained since the end of the second world war. The way to achieve this lay in their midst, the Mujahideen, trained during the Cold War by the intelligence services and given surface to air missiles to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. According to Robin Cook RIP the immense wealth of Salafist and the schism of Islam between Shia and Wahhabis could be woven into a ‘game changing’ terror attack that would kick-start perpetual war.
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It all went badly wrong. The two terms of Bush would witness the ‘crime of the century’ and the policies of the Bush administration would deeply damage the US image across the Middle East. The Bush era would be marked with the unforgettable policies of torture, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, a genocide in Iraq, and the devastation of Gaza and Lebanon. These terrible things are burnt into peoples minds; the subsequent loss of liberties, the painful images of dead children has affected the whole planet in one way or another. The crash of our economy from years of war has not only impacted our daily lives, it has made us realise we have been duped, lied to and spat in the face.
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The terror runaway freight train rolls on. The announcement of Bin Laden’s death came exactly eight years after President Bush’s famous speech on the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln that became tabbed as the ‘Mission Accomplished’ address. Now the driving force has been passed to Ayman al-Zawahiri who will put together another attack with the help of our intelligence agencies to coincide with the 10th-anniversary attack on America, an inevitable diversion that ‘was found on the computers of Bin Laden in his ‘Abbottabad compound’ – I believe the young man who ‘leaked’ this information is now dead. I will not remind you of this again, I only hope I am NOT the little boy who ‘cried wolf ‘too many times.
Demons, CB? As far as I knoweveryone involved was perfectly human.
“how many were killed by the USA” – that is not the point. The real question you should have asked is – ” how many ended up dead because of the war started on a pretext of WMDs?”. Ask the right question – you get the right number – over 1m.
“Ask the right question”- how many died because the Baarhist Party took power in a coup and had its own idiosyncratic ways of retaining power and changing leaders.
Over 2m.
1. Give the figure of Libyans killed by the government and the circumstances in which they were killed.
2. Comoare the official statistics for education, housing, social welfare ( i.e. even by going to the CIA Factbook – then revert to me with the statistics that relate to the Idris period and the Gadaffi period). Fair approach? If it is not – then tell me why is is not.
1 unknown. We do know that there were periodic massacres, and learn of others now and then, some years after they took place.
2 incapable of verification. Apart from the different amounts of money available to Idris and Ghadaffy, the secretive and kleptocratic nature of Ghadaffy’s state means that there is no reason to believe any of the figures supplied.
Courtenay I said that Venezuela has been plotted against by the US but used the word ‘subject’ instead of ‘object’. I did leave a link about the music teaching but here is the result of googling – venezuela teaching music schools and prisons –
http://tiny.cc/2j7d1
Eventually the BBC reported this latest NATO outrage but cast doubts on the numbers killed and who they were. Their website page is on World Middle East.
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This morning on Radio 4 Today, the same reporter Matthew Price was speaking. Only Gaddafi military qualify to be blown apart it would seem. It doesn’t matter much about the rest.
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0733
Colonel Gaddafi has said that damage at an airstrike near the town of Zlitan in Libya, which the Libyan government claim killed 85 civilians, proves that Nato forces are not protecting civilians, but Nato insists the area was a military staging base. BBC’s Matthew Price analyses the competing claims.
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The live link comes up after 9am
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/listen_again/default.stm
See what I mean.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14464400