Comments on my last post revealed many of the regular commenters here to be victims of what I might call “The Good Delusion” – a belief that anyone at odds with the political and economic establishment must be good, as the establishment is unjust and corrupt. But the sad truth is that vicious materialism and sociopathic behaviour is neither confined solely to the upper classes nor in all cases instigated by them.
I should for example be grateful for an explanation by some of the commenters on my last post as to why the following is an act of revolutionary vanguardism, constitutes a protest against government spending cuts or is a product of police stop and search powers:
The answer is that such claims are ludicrous. The idea that all thuggery is the fault of the bad example of the Bullingdon Club or of higher university tuition fees is an absolute nonsense. And I speak as somebody who is utterly opposed to any tuition fees paid by students, absolutely deplores the privilege that the Bullingdon Club represents, and is completely against stop and search.
The idea that no personal blame can be attached to the looters because of their background or of government policies, is one with which I have no sympathy. Strangely those who hold that the looters are blameless victims of oppression tend to be the same people who have no sympathy for the policemen who get injured, whatever their motives or circumstances that led them to join the police. Apparently all looters are innocent and all police are villains. What nonsense!
In direct answer to another critical commenter, you are quite wrong in stating that all my information came from the media. It did not. As far as I know, the store security guards badly beaten up in Newham have not been reported yet in the MSM, for example. How were the attacks on those people justified, who were just trying to earn a living? What about those leaping for their lives to escape fires, or who had their flats attacked with firebombs? What of the bus driver pulled from his bus and beaten up so the bus could be wrecked? The cabbie who had his arm broken trying to defend his takings?
There is a key fact here. The vast majority of those arrested have existing criminal records – many of them very long indeed. This is not a spontaneous uprising of a repressed class. This is a large number of existing criminals seeing an apparent opportunity to rob and mug with little chance of being caught as they temporarily overwhelmed the police. Anyone who believes these were frustrated would-be university students is so warped by ideology as to have descended into gibbering idiocy.
Frankly the idea that these were oppressed representatives of a suffering class is an insult to the very many decent people in low paid work and without work who struggle to get by and never burn down anyone’s home, mug anyone or loot electronic bling from shops.
Some commenters also have chosen to allude to my own middle class background. There are a very few people who frequent this site who have known me since childhood. I can guarantee you that I grew up in much greater material deprivation than almost any of the criminals out looting. It is a simple matter of fact that I owned no clothes which were not secondhand, other than underwear, until after I went to university. I never had a watch. But did that entitle me to go and loot a shop and burn out the people living above it?
I was brought up, with my siblings, by my mother and grandfather. He was a coalman from the genuine British working class tradition, a lifelong socialist, entirely-self taught. He used to read to me from Burns, Hazlitt and Tressell. When in doubt on any moral question, I always consider what old Henry would have done. If anywhere near, he would have been out there with his coal shovel defending people against the vicious looters trying to attack them, ruin their livelihoods and burn them out. Any of you who cannot see that that is the authentic tradition of the British people, are suffering a case of the good delusion which is beyond repair.
When I first saw that video I assumed it was a looter taking stuff off another looter. I could be wrong. But was shown on the news as though it was a young man with a bloodied nose being robbed. Who knows?
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@YugoStiglitz Just because US cities haven’t exploded yet doesn’t mean for one instant that they won’t. Do you honestly think that if 40million lose their food stamps there won’t be unrest?
You could have asked the same questions about the UK when Paris recently exploded. The uncomfortable truth right now is that the same thing could happen in any one of several World cities tomorrow.
When I first saw that video I assumed it was a looter taking stuff off another looter. I could be wrong. But was shown on the news as though it was a young man with a bloodied nose being robbed. Who knows?
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He was a Malaysian student who had nothing to do with the looting. He’s now in hospital after having his jaw broken.
Craig,
do you remember UK based angry people daubed the Uzbek embassy building in London with paints and caused significant damages in 2005 as a protest to the killings of innocent people by security forces in their country? Some politicians in the UK defended those angry people and I had a chance of speaking to a member of Uzbek embassy at that time who said that the british authorities didn’t instigate investigation and nobody was arrested. Do you see any parallels here in terms of damaging buildings of course, not investigations or arrests?
Incidentally the BBC put Harriet Harman up against Gove on Newsnight the night before last. She was feeble and had no answers even when he was trying to put the blame for things going wrong during the time when her lot were in power. When I put that link up to
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov.uk/Publications/Documents/Attorney%20General's%20One%20Year%20Review%202002.pdf the other day
I had forgotten that when Goldsmith was Attorney General, she was Solicitor General 2001-5. So she is just as involved in the decision to wage war on Iraq and in other NuLabour crimes as Blair, Straw, Campbell, Goldsmith et al yet she has managed to stay squeaky clean.
Voila
I have no problem at all with people putting graffiti on the Uzbek Embassy. I am pretty neutral about anti-Gloablisation protests smashing windows of MacDonalds or when students smashed up Tory HQ. But that is political protest; this is just theft with violence.
Sparks:
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/birmingham-riots-anger-deaths
England riots: Fightback under way, says PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14474393
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800 comments thereon. Almost as many as those complaining about the treatment of Jody McIntyre in his interview with Ben Brown on the BBC after the student protests, and on the revolting Death in the Med by Jane Corbin on the Mavi Marmara slaughter!
CRAIG, you couldn’t be more right about it. The main explanation for the pillaging is this and it is simple: THE ABSENCE OF THE POLICE.
Good post Mr Murray.
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I wrote this on another blogg:
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“”They were, if you like, truly multi-cultural riots.”
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As delicious as that quote is, it is exactly wrong. The youths have had all semblance of culture systematically removed by the moral-relativists that contaminate all state schools; they are culture-less riots therefore.
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Theodore Dalrymple points out that under ZanuLabour, there was a doubling of monies to the schools; yet the standards never even stayed the same, they continued to decline. This is the proof conclusive that the state system of education is contaminated, and not underfunded.
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Further I would declare that it is the prime factor towards subversive destabilization; the Marxist-Feminist Fabian society openly boasts of its aims to change our culture; they targeted the teacher training colleges, and now their chickens have come home to roost.
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I don’t believe that rioters should be killed, except in self defence; but as for Fabians, they should be pre-emptively shot on sight.”
JimmyGiro, Dogma is always dangerous and always supports its own followers over everyone else who can just get stuffed, or shot.
Societies develop over hundreds, even thousands of years. Human nature over hundreds of thousands of years.
It is pure fantasy to think that artificially constructed ideas of how nature or society can be altered can have any chance of overcoming this evolution.
“The idea that no personal blame can be attached to the looters” – Craig, I don’t think that claim along with some of the others you have make, were actually said. It really looks like you are setting up your own straw man to defend your own rather authoritarian ‘solution’ to what’s happening. All people are doing is exploring the non-opportunistic side of why people are breaking with normal and acceptable behaviour.
Kit Green wrote: “Societies develop over hundreds, even thousands of years.”
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Brush up on John Glubb ‘Pasha’.
Lwtc247
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My thoughts precisely. Strawmen and Manichean absolutism.
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Craig is evidently better at the Foreign Affairs brief than at Home Affairs.
Craig: “They were not protesting politically” – I think they’ve learned that achieves the grand total of zero, don’t you?
Let’s be honest here, the political class don’t really give a tuppeny-bit about the inner-city youth who are outside of their establishment grooming programs.
I am NOT saying their protest is overwhelmingly political – Other than the original clashes, these looting sprees seem like crazed impulsive youth opportunists, wanting an adrenaline fix, rebellious teens, frustrated wannabe consumers – but there is very much a political reason why they are this way.
The political response has been every bit as miserable as I expected.
I’m going to leave this now. I’m too puzzled as to why people who might have some understanding of the political situation behind these riots are being categorised as insane idiots who feel anyone who riots is blameless and see the police universally as villains. I don’t see anyone on this site responding in such a simplistic fashion, although I do see some resorting to the frothing frenzy of
vengeance so characteristic of people who have been truly scared.
Strangely, none of the police or shopkeepers or residents I’ve spoken to have had this reaction. I’m sure there are some, but otherwise it seems to be an armchair reaction which, in itself, is perfectly understandable. Perhaps there is nothing like living through an experience to make you see the complexity of it. As for solutions; I would focus on arresting *adult* looters and arsonists, with a particular focus on the arsonists, since they are clearly the most dangerous. I would meanwhile be aware that the police are complaining about having to police groups of EDL vigilantes, whose attitude hardly differs to that of some of the posters on this board. Otherwise, deplorable though looting is (though some might call it desperate: in Haringey they were looting Pound shops) I would be cautious about demonising impoverished, over-excited young people, and about allowing the way they are making their presence felt to obscure the things that need to be said about this government’s dismissal of their futures.
We shouldn’t leap to conclusions about that video. One man of dark skin helps the lad up. Shortly after, a white man in a cap enters the shot, walks past but turns back and starts rummaging in the lad’s backpack. The black man also seems to look, and then checks the lads pocket, but I don’t see him take anything. The white man seems very businesslike, finds something quickly and leaves quickly and purposefully. The black man and the white man do not leave together and do not appear to be part of a team. The black man moves like he’s surprised when the white man takes the item from the lad’s backpack.
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The white man in the cap seems to me like a professional pick-pocket. He really looks like he’s searched backpacks before, and knows not to hang about. Maybe he tricked the black man, saying to look for the lad’s ID or ‘phone to call home or something. The black man doesn’t seem to attempt a quick get-away.
I can’t believe I’m writing this, but there is actually an excellent posting on the culture that produced the riots over at the Harry’s Place blog-
http://hurryupharry.org/2011/08/09/most-of-the-kids-are-alright/#more-57838
It even makes a pretty good companion piece to Craig’s post here.
The root cause is Globalisation, consumerism, advertising, footballers getting £200 000 a week etc, the looters want all that but don’t have the ability to obtain it legitimately, and have discovered that if they act together they can overwhelm the authorities that have until now allowed it to develop because it suites their agenda, which is to introduce more powers that will restrict our freedoms even further.
“You need to include even those you may perceive as criminals, gangsters and racists.” – Having Read Craig’s book, The Catholic Orangemen… I recall him describing sitting in one of these meetings where known tyrants who had done unspeakable horrors, were brought to the negotiating table. I seem to recall Craig saying this was uncomfortable but necessary to try and work from that point onwards. So Craig, should such a thing be done now with this youth smashing, mugging and looting, rather than fascist police hunts, prison sentences and the prospect of no change (monetary and socio-political wise?)
JimmyGiro, I am relatively new around here. Do you bring all discussions around to the middle east question?
You are mixing up the nature of societies and associated human behaviour (that transcends societies) with the ever present power struggles that are a part of the issue.
That human nature seems to require leaders and herd, so your comment about John Glubb is just one of an almost infinite number of examples where things seem to change through power brokerage etc.
My point is that these power struggles are continuous in society and therefore change is constant in an historical perspective. Jostling for position may if you are lucky give power for a generation (Mubarak) or a dynasty (Romanovs) but they are all transitory.
Our nature seems to make us incabable of thinking very far ahead at all. We may consider the world we leave our children and grandchildren, but it is rare to consider how things will be in a couple of centuries. Natural selfishness.
Some of these comments bring to my mind the jokes about social workers.
Two social workers were walking down dark street, there was a man beaten with a bloody face on the ground, he moaned ” help me, I have been mugged and beaten”, the two walked on and one turned to the other and said ” the person who did this to this man is the one who really needs help”.
Can I say any more??
angrysoba, yes I was wrong, just read about it in the Guardian. Though when I first saw it on the news there was nothing about the young man’s identity.
Azra
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Modern societies employ a complex of agencies.
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Presumably the police and medical service would address the victim’s immediate problem, whilst social workers would be dealing with a propensity to criminality.
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That’s how it works in an ideal environment.
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When the stste itself is disrespected you have a whole other set of problems to deal with too.
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So whilst your joke seems on the surface amusing, it isn’t really.
Herbie, You must be great fun to hang out with. It was a joke. It was funny. You are far too serious. Do you have a book of what you would like to be state approved jokes?
Herbie, I appreciate what you are saying, but read about some of the people who were charged.. were majority of the rioters of deprived background? I reserve my judgement on that..
32 people have appeared in court charged with offences such as burglary and criminal damage during the previous riots.Among them were a graphic designer, college students, a youth worker, a university graduate and a man signed up to join the army.
A significant number of those charged were said in court to be of previously good character and had simply been drawn in to the offending.
I demand to see my lawyer. Sorry Pal, he has been banged up too..
Herbie, What about respect for our fellow citizen? what about respect for their hard work, their struggle to scratch a living , bulidng a home and life??
I feel some of these comments go beyond explanation and is an attempt to excuse the thuggery and criminality. No excuse for that whatsover..
There is no doubt in my mind that the people committing these acts need to be punished, the question is how ?
Do they have a political point to make, probably not, but when you take a look at what oppertunities the young have today to get an eductaion to have a job and a chance to better themselves they dont seem to exist at all. If this had been one isolated incident in one city then Id say yes they are just mindless thugs, but the fact that it has spread so rapidly to other citys suggests that there is a basic undercurrent of anger. We can only speculate about what.
We can be disgusted with the actions of the rioters if we wish, but lets not forget that a riot is a situation in which all law and order has gone out the window.
If war is simply and extension of diplomacy via the sword, then maybe riot is simply and extension of demonstration via the sword.
Peaceful protest in this country does nothing, and I do mean nothing. The ability to get things changed via peaceful protest ended with the fuel blockade. The government ignored on that occassion the protesters and the blockade ended, the government won. They learned from that that you can simply ignore protest without any political damage.
Sadly sometime violence is needed in order for people to actually take a look at what is really happening and start to address the underlying issues that have given rise to it. It will be interesting to see if the government actually try and find long term solutions to this anger or if they will simply ignore it as well.
There wont be much trouble tonight….. because its raining. Although the government will claim that they have managed to stop it.
The immediate visable actions are of simple theft and thuggery, but on such a large scale it cannot be written off as just that.
I hate violence, as violence begets violence, but if you have no voice, if you cant be heard how else do you make your feelings known ?
The theft and arson are the effects of a whole group of people who now have nothing what so ever to lose. Shooting them with rubber bullets isnt really an answer. Why did camaron not stand up and appeal for calm, why did camaron not ask the community leaders to address their youth and find out why they did this, he knows why and he doesnt want the answers, simpler and cheaper to shoot them with baton rounds and call them all thugs.
“The idea that no personal blame can be attached to the looters because of their background or of government policies, is one with which I have no sympathy.”
Is anybody really saying that though? All I’m seeing is the proposition that, if you keep jacking up the stressors in people’s lives whilst simultaneously destroying any reason for them to feel any kind of involvement with or solidarity for civil society, you shouldn’t be entirely surprised when they go on the rampage.
Those child soldiers you talked about in Catholic Orangemen weren’t entirely blameless, but they did not take their actions in a vacuum either. Human behaviour is complex and influenced by many factors. Trying to identify those factors is not the same as excusing the behaviour.
“If war is simply and extension of diplomacy via the sword, then maybe riot is simply and extension of demonstration via the sword.”
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Maybe. Or maybe it’s important to note that a demonstration has to make clear demands, if it hopes even to get them noticed. Otherwise it’s evidence of nothing except that everybody was right all along, and everybody else was wrong.