Peculiarly enough, if I thought that the Palestinian attempt to gain recognition at the UN would succeed, I would probably oppose it. I don’t think the “two state solution”, where the Palestinians are overcrowded, walled in, divided up and deprived of economic viability and of water, is any solution at all. I remain firmly in favour of a single secular non-racist state in which all the current inhabitants of Israel/Palestine, including recent settlers, are welcome as citizens.
But as a tactic to isolate diplomatically the US and Israel, to show Obama for the lying Zionist puppet he is, and to reveal starkly the bullying and mendacity of US foreign policy, I think the statehood bid had been brilliant. With the US denying the most basic rights to the Palestinians, while supporting dreadful and cruel regimes in Yemen and Bahrain, any credibility which their Middle Eastern policy may have had is now completely buried, in the most public way. It is going to be even harder for wealthy and corrupt Arab elites to follow the US line, and will risk still greater reaction from their own people if they do.
This is a good and healthy day for the international community, where a harsh light is thrown on crawling things – including Obama.
Hi Craig.
Secular, One State Solution.
Anything else is spin.
“Peculiarly enough, if I thought that the Palestinian attempt to gain recognition at the UN would succeed, I would probably oppose it. I don’t think the “two state solution”, where the Palestinians are overcrowded, walled in, divided up and deprived of economic viability and of water, is any solution at all. I remain firmly in favour of a single secular non-racist state in which all the current inhabitants of Israel/Palestine, including recent settlers, are welcome as citizens.”
Me too. And for the UK.
“This is a good and healthy day for the international community, where a harsh light is thrown on crawling things – including Obama.”
Best thing I’ve read this morning.
It is indeed clear that US policy in the Middle East requires some significant changes. US support for Israel has been causing problems to the US relations with the Arab World since the Cold War. But on the other hand pro-Israeli lobbies in the US are so much powerful and influential that one cannot see any such changes are coming in any feasible future. What is more likely that US will continue to play ‘divide and dominate’ role with the Arabs similar to that of Romans with their colonies. And this indeed creates unhealthy environment for Arabs and the rest of non-Americans and non-Israelis.
The Palestinian bid for recognition by the UN was discussed on BBC 4’s Today Programme this morning. After a brief introduction, a many-sided and impartial discussion followed – consisting wholly and completely of a set piece speech by the Israeli ambassador.
My favourite bit was where he solemnly asserted that the Palestinians had been arguing their cause at the UN “for decades” and that “many resolutions” had been passed, without effect. (He didn’t mentioned that was because all the resolutions were vetoed by the USA, ignored by Israel, or both).
When this farrago of ludicrously one-sided cynical propaganda was finally over, I expect even a BBC reporter to ask a few pointed questions. Instead, the Israeli ambassador was politely thanked for clearing the matter up, and the programme moved on to a different topic.
Off the topic.. “Well said AhmadiNejad” even though I do not like your government”!
Tom Welsh, And we have Mr Cameron, saying that “Iran’s leaders do everything they can to avoid the accountability of a free media”
What about UK government Mr C?? do we have free media? we have BBC, we have to pay licence fee and what we get?? Rubish propoganda
If anyone could explain how a single, secular non-racist state could actually be achieved, I would be delighted, but also astounded.
Tom Welsh, don’t you wish Brian Redhead was still at Radio 4? I think it died about the same time as he did.
My thoughts too. Two state = bantustans for the Palestinians and no right of return.
What a bad joke for the Palesatinians this was.
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Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917
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Dear Lord Rothschild,
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I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty’s Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.
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“His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”
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I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
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Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour
Off Topic
http://www.prisonplanet.com/armed-troops-burn-down-homes-kill-children-to-evict-ugandans-in-name-of-global-warming.html
Craig,
I enjoy reading your insights on a range of issues and I too share your view of a single, secular state as the optimal outcome. Sorry if this is off topic but I am curious as to why you do not extend this view to the UK. I am a proud Scot but it’s not clear to me why, all things considered, breaking up the UK would be in the interests of all of its inhabitants. Scotland may happen to be blessed with (depleting) oil reserves but why shouldn’t the benefits of this be extended to all who live in the UK? Is Scotland’s prosperity not more secure in the longer term as part of a larger state? And, as I think Uzbek in the UK has commented on in the past, breaking up states has tended in the past to lead to more nationalist sentiment and less tolerance of others – would our relationship with our southern neighbours not be harmed as a result of full independence?
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[Other Mod: To keep this thread on-topic, I request that people replying to this comment do so at the link below]:
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http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/09/independence-for-england/#comment-322713
Thoroughly agree with the second and third paragraphs, but why favour a one-state solution if virtually all of Israel is opposed to it? Oh well, let’s agree on shining a light in dark places.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the USA is also bullying other members of the SC (Portugal, Bosnia, Nigeria, Gabon, Colombia) not to vote for Palestine, so they won’t get the nine votes they need…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/23/palestinian-statehood-security-council-vote
The US Presidency, a wholly-owned subsidiary of AIPAC.
This is a good comment from Media Lens about the Israeli propaganda put out on the Today this morning which I also heard. I almost prefer Prosor the previous Israeli Ambassador to the UK who is now doing sterling work for the Occupiers at the UN.
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Re: Bill Clinton: Netanyahu isn’t interested in Mideast peace deal
Posted by Si on September 23, 2011, 12:52 pm, in reply to “Bill Clinton: Netanyahu isn’t interested in Mideast peace deal”
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“The Israelis always wanted two things that once it turned out they had, it didn’t seem so appealing to Mr. Netanyahu,” Clinton said, adding that Israel wanted “to believe they had a partner for peace in a Palestinian government, and there’s no question — and the Netanyahu government has said — that this is the finest Palestinian government they’ve ever had in the West Bank.”
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The Israeli ambassador to the UK was interviewed on the BBC’s Today programme this morning harping on about there being no Palestinian ‘partner for peace’. As you can imagine it was a lousy interview – At no point during his lying about there being no Palestinian ‘partner for peace’ was it pointed out that the release of the Palestine Papers put that particular fiction well and truly to bed. Also, the ambassador complained that the Palestinians will never be happy with that which Israel offers and trotted out another lie about Ehud Barak’s incredibly generous ‘offer’ – again this went unchallenged. No, the ambassador was insistent that there’s just no pleasing these Palestinians. Helpfully, Today had primed its listenership – in an earlier article which featured interviews with West Bank children, the last voice was a girl with exceptionally good English stating that whilst she would feel a tinge of happiness when Abbas stands up at the UN – it would be somewhat tainted by the fact that she would really like to see Palestinians enjoying a state in the whole of historic Palestine -‘the whole population’ is taught to think this, she said.
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The lies of Taub here http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/b006qj9z/console 2 hrs 35 mins in
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‘Israel is very committed to negotiations’.
The Palestinians will today ask the United Nations for full membership.
The new Israeli ambassador to London, Daniel Taub, presents his country’s view of the quest for statehood.
Obama Sold Israel Bunker-Buster Bombs
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/09/23/president-obama-secretly-approved-transfer-of-bunker-buster-bombs-to-israel.html
Obama has every right to give Israel Bunker-Buster Bomb. They are such a peaceful, conciliatory, fair and just nation.. Good for them, now they can push the Nasty Palsatianian into the sea. How dare they are asking to have a fraction of their original land back.
Well done Mr Obomber.. You are cursed in this life and next and the one after that. Again I have to say, I was proud to be Iranian when I heard Ahmadi Nejad Speech at UN.
Taub has just been given more than five minutes on the BBC News Channel to give out some further Israeli propaganda. The breaking news is that a Palestinian in the West Bank has been shot and killed today by an Israeli soldier.
Religion and the Rise of Capitalism R.H.Tawney is a must read on this subject.
Also “central bank history- william Stuart” a youtube video is very informative. A god book to read is Shlomo Sand’s ‘The Invention of the Jewish People,’ Also I find going to the ADL’s website (the anti defamation league) is quite good to get information about people who the ADL is trying to claim are antisemitic.
Sarkozy’s timeline – a month to restart talks, 6 months to sort out borders etc, agreement within a year – might seem ridiculously optimistic, given the cravenness of US politicians and the power of AIPAC etc. But the world has changed so much in the last year or so that nothing seems impossible any more.
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Just very unlikely, like neutrinos moving faster than light…
Chloe Smith is a diligent signed up member of the Conservative Friends of Israel. Remember Norwich North? She describes herself as hard working. A press release per day apparently but not one to mention her trip to Israel 29 May – 2 June 2011. Rather strange that when she was in Israel she makes out she was at the Houses of Parliament?? See 31 May here {http://www.chloesmith.org.uk/news/3?page=5}
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http://electronicintifada.net/blog/david/israel-pays-junket-british-mps
I agree this episode has confirmed that Obama is no different from any of the other US Presidents on Israel/Palestine and that there is no point is waiting for the US to act on the imaginary “peace process”. However, as almost the whole world accepts the two state settlement (with all its flaws) I think it is not the time to pursue the dream of a one state settlement which is fine in principle but likely to lead to perpetual conflict in practice.
Hate to admit it, but I agree with the SNP.
Former prime minister Tony Blair said that the bid (for Palestinian statehood) would be “deeply confrontational”.
He added that UN recognition would not change conditions on the ground in the Occupied Territories.
“You can pass whatever resolution you like at the United Nations or Security Council, it doesn’t actually deliver you a state on the ground in the West Bank and Gaza,” he said.
Former prime minister Tony Blair said that the bid (for Palestinian statehood) would be “deeply confrontational”.
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And 44 years of occupation, land theft, humiliation and contempt isn’t???
“A single,secular, non racist” ? And this includes the nation of Israel? Surely you jest sir.
They in the name of security do not see the need to allow basic needs to be met of Palestinians. How can they provide a secular non racist state.
If reconciliation was to be the order of the day, what of the blood that was spilled, of children and women and men. How unfair for the real citizens who have been driven off their own lands and cornered.
And UN’s recognition of the state matters little to a nation like Israel where they do as they please no matter what any nation says. As if a piece of paper is going to stop the atrocities.
This was one of subjects on BBC Radio Any Questions this evening. So it will also be featured in Any Answers on Saturday lunchtime.
This programme has now started tweeting during transmission and is trying to encourage parallel discussion in the twittersphere.
Hashtag is #bbcaq.
Netanyahu’s UN speech: “(Israel) MUST therefore maintain a long term military presence in critical strategic areas in the West Bank” …
“all these potential cracks in Israel’s security have to be sealed in a peace agreement before a Palestinian state is declared”
Regardless of the other (sometimes powerful but rarely fully convincing)points he made this first demand being a requirement before agreement is made on the second point is enough to forever stall any agreement. A Palestinian leader could never agree to any such thing, outside of total,utter defeat in a war, who could?
His comments though on Israel’s previous withdrawal from Gaza in such an important speech & at such a location is a hostage to fortune. When it comes to demands in future for the necessary Jewish withdrawal from the West Bank, what can he say apart from “Judenrein” again?. If reports are correct then 50% of settlers wish to leave but are economically trapped anyway. Those highly religious Jews that remain will refuse to live side by side with Arabs and will not be allowed to be armed, nor could ghettos be acceptable so what might they propose?
Finally, the idea of a one state solution is a complete fantasy, an intellectual procrastination. Those who propose it must accept peace will be put off for another twenty years. At least until demographic developments in Israel finally cause a desperate situation that forces the Israeli hand. Otherwise potential interventions might include if a Paulite faction within the Tea Party movement win over their rivals and gain some meaningful political power (a long shot). Otherwise perhaps with the increased implosion of the US economy there might be a similar result with diminishing American political and monetary investment into the region. Another angle perhaps is around Israel’s place within the EU — an effective member in all but name. Economic pressure here from member states might have a part to play, but it would be very hard to bring it onto the table as the economic relationship is largely conducted out of view and the power in the EU is not democratically held.
I’d prefer the one state solution too – if there was any chance whatsoever of Israelis accepting it. There’s none. Many Israelis will accept the two state solution. There’s no chance in the forseeable future of them accepting a one state solution because they don’t trust a government including Palestinians not to allow them to be killed (and since there are many Palestinian terrorist groups just as the Israeli army committs many war crimes I can see their point there to some extent).
There’ll probably be neither a one or two state solution any time soon, but there’s at least a chance of a two state solution within years or decades. Short of a miracle it’ll be many decades before a one state solution (though in support of what you’re saying, Craig, the previous Israeli Prime Minister did say that without a two state solution there’d be an apartheid style struggle followed by one state sooner or later
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/30/israel )