If anyone needed convincing that they should offer the Occupy protestors full and unconditional support, all doubts should be set aside by the stunning news that the average earnings rise of directors of major companies is 49%.
There is a massive squeeze at present on the living standards of ordinary people, with unemployment rising, inflation rising and salary increases substantially below inflation, plus a whole series of tax increases. Despite the mainstream media, pretty well everybody now understands that this is because their money is being paid straight into the pockets of fatcat bankers by the government. The bankers has already shown they were going to spit in our faces by maintaining the massive incomes of their executives, even at loss makers like UBS.
Those who argue that it should be left up to the shareholders to determine executive salaries are missing the point. The shareholders are, overwhelmingly, other institutions whose executives also benefit from this culture of sickeningly excessive reward, in an orgy of mutually reinforced looting.
What is so striking about this is the absolute fearlessness, the total arrogance of the 1%, safe in their control of the politicians and the power of the state. They seem to think they can trample on the little people forever, with impunity. We are approaching a stage where these people are becoming totally isolated from any bond of communality which holds together a society; are becoming in short the open enemies of the people.
They may find eventually this was not such a wise move, but for now they are so drowned in material consumption they really do not care.
“So how would you deal with the bankers”
.
The answer is simple…Socialism or Barbarism, there is NOTHING else on offer. But then very few it would seem want “Socialism” so what are we left with…”Barbarism”.
“In order to stop people avoiding tax you need to understand how they do it in the first place I’m afraid.”
.
You must be talking to yourself there!. I understand how they do it, they do it because they are the ones with offshore bank accounts.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/andreas-whittam-smith/andreas-whittam-smith-bankers-are-to-blame-for-this-mess-and-they-still-dont-get-it-2376279.html
To the point and very apt, Witham Smith argues for a root and branch banking reform and I think he does not mean bank led or inhouse reforms.
The silence after such news is taken in by this Government, our lack of reactions to ripp off merchants will only encourage them some more.
Wiz
I don’t think capitalism will collapse – it has and reinvent itself as it has done in the past. The real question to the left is whether they want to have any constructive input into that process or to leave it entirely in the hands of the self interested – the investment banker quoted by Boris also demonstrated how he thought that the process of taking on the self interested should be undertaken.
I also think that the Left has got its thinking about regulation totally wrong – we still think of it as mainly being some form of outside check – rather than the establishment and encouragement of mechanisms that encourage good corporate governance within corporate entities – the state just cannot be there to take all the decisions, even if it were desirable to do so.
As to whether a banking system is recreated or not – I’m afraid we have little choice. I cannot think of an economic system that works where there isn’t some mechanism for recycling savings into investment – centralised planning and barter
I agree that This Time is Different – perhaps we could have sme different thinking on the Left to reflect this.
what are you all worked up about? They are the Patriotic Rich who make this country tick ..
.
.
Whats more important is that we have a Prime Minister who is totally at one with the 1% needy at this time of financial crisis, he understands them and for our sakes produces policies that can aid them to help us.
.
.
the Ppatriotic Rich would never dream of leaving a sinking ship .. i suspect most of them would if given the opportunity more than willingly give up a years income to resolve the self proclaimed deficit crisis.
.
.
i just think youre all having the Envy problem.
Anyway, Stephen, don’t you think you are falling into the trap of quibbling over things that don’t matter when you make suggestions about changes to the tax system? European governments are setting up a facility with a ceiling of a trillion Euros to keep the banks afloat> Isn’t that interesting to you? Don’t you wonder how far it can go? What if it’s not enough? I would respectfully direct you to economistmeg, the website of Europe debt expert Megan Greene, who is quite clear that the EFSF needs to be two trillion. One trillion will be called upon and exhausted within a year, according to her. Then what happens? What if there’s no growth? Do you think Greece is going to grow, Stephen? What will happen to the grotesque Conservatives who are saying just now that the only problem with Greece is that it is not sufficiently competitive. What they mean, of course, is that Greek workers need to take bigger hits, even the ones in the majority who took no part in foolish lending. This kind of reactionary stuff is destined to fail when Greek workers are already on the streets. What kind of pay cut should we suggest to a rioting Greek worker he should accept? Fifty per cent?
Coming soon to a police force near you (scroll past the appeal for cash)
.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/10/10/financial-giants-put-new-york-city-cops-on-their-payroll/
Guest
You patently do not understand how they do it. There are plenty of ways of avoiding tax without having an overseas bank account – and btw I don’t use them since although legal I don’t consider them to be moral. The loopholes can be attacked by changing the law – but first you have to have the inclination to do so and then you need to know how to change the law without creating further loopholes.
Wendy – I detect sarcasm.
I’m logging off now, as I might be overstaying my welcome, but one final go at Stephen … This Time Is Different is a book on the current debt crisis which sets out very lucidly how financial engineering has made regulation impossible, and indeed how it is making avoiding disaster unavoidable. Who’s going to want that kind of thing in the future? And of course if it’s the end of history then our current capacity for imagining a new way of conducting ourselves in the future, one that did not depend on state control or exploitation by rich weirdoes who are prepared to be ruthless in order to arrogate to themselves power and wealth, may well have to be stretched by necessity. Some Green thinkers would claim to have already got there.
“So how would you deal with the bankers”
.
Well certainly not by fiddling around with the composition of bank boardrooms. That’s merely a distraction, getting people asking the wrong questions. The problem is surely a structural one. One option might be simply to end the relationship between public finance and private banks. We could then print our own money rather than paying banks to print it for us.
.
Unfortunately, countries that do that tend to get bombed these days.
Wiz
Of course there are people out there who would like to argue that the collapse of the eurozone is inevitable and they quite often do so because they stand to gain from such a collapse either economically or politically. I quite understand how derivatives and financial engineering have increased the power of some to gain by pushing the market in one particular direction or another. What I doubt is whether they have sufficient firepower to take on those sovereign states, or whether they will fear the consequences of failing sufficiently not to try to do so. One of the reasons why I think that the latest proposals for the Eurozone may be enough – is the good news that in recent weeks rather a lot of hedge funds and speculators have got themselves pretty badly burned as a result of assuming that no deal would be put in place. As well as a financial fund to take on the speculators and financial engineers – there is a need for regulation as well and it is pretty clear that there is some appetite for this on the Continent, although this is not shared by the City or its political wing.
Do I think European countries can manage their current levels of debt – well yes I do, the levels are not high that historically and history shows that they can be brought down gradually through a sustained period of managed growth and (Keynesian) management of the public finances. As for Greece, yes it can grow and given that it has had its debts halved and real wages have already been cut by 30-50% it may well be that most of the adjustment necessary has already occurred.
My guess is that if the markets were to collapse as some here clearly desire then the consequences would be something that is more authoritarian/fascist/nationalist rather than the vague barter/green economy that the dreamers are hoping for. Personally, I don’t want to live in a tent even during daylight hours.
MJ
I agree that the countries that were bombed ended the relationship between public finance and private banks – the dictators that ran the countries just treated the public finances as it was their own private bank.
Anon,
.
“The answer is simple…Socialism or Barbarism, there is NOTHING else on offer. But then very few it would seem want “Socialism” so what are we left with…”Barbarism”.”
.
Just to let you know that there is a spectrum of lights between Black and White. One does not have to choose between to extremes in order to deal with the problem. Relevant solution can be found somewhere in between. This suggestion is from one who was born and lived in the society where extreme form of Socialism was running the ball until it turned into extreme form of Barbarism. Both were extremely harmful for the society which still feels pain and struggles to overcome this past.
Boris’s motelyfool message board quote, repeated the word ‘talented’ 12 times in the process of stating and restating that certain investment bankers are somewhat ‘talented’. “They’re like top footballers” -talented,talented, talented, T-A-L-E-N-T-E-D, talented…
Stephen: if you’re suggesting that borrowing from private banks offers some kind of protection against corruption I would have to disagree. Incidentally, it’s not just dictators who do this. Kennedy for instance authorized the issuance of interest-free Treasury dollars in open defiance of the Fed. His successor terminated the project pronto.
This debate seems to come around every year, the fat-cats of business awarding themselves big bonuses, the only difference this time is the enormous scale of it. Maybe that tells you something about where the leaders think business is going and the fat-cats are taking as much as they can, while they can before the economy falls over a cliff-edge and there won’t be anything left to take.
/
Only a general strike of the poorly paid doing jobs most vital to the workings of the economy is going to change anything. Don’t expect poiliticans to do it. The train has to be derailed once and for all.
Correct Craig ! Civil unrest on a large scale is unavoidable.The problem is that the very people we pay to protect us will soon be used against us.Even the Church is on the side of the fat cats..
The time bombs ticking, just a matter of when is enough, enough ?
It is astonishing that not more trouble has broken out yet, but c hange is on the way. In the US the occupy wall street movement has taken on the cause of the homeless, something that is not allowed in the US.
Anybody who ever searched for public toilets in the US, it is a crime to urinate in public, must feel for those who have been forced to live outside for the last yearandahalf.
This account of homeless people is truly harrowing and we are coming closer to the point when people are going to pull these greed merchants out of their comfy seats.
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/10/20111026131051935268.html
They must not be able to get away, flee to some comfy offshore island, protected and living in bliss, they should be hounded from pillar to post, investigated and photographed, they should be shamed until they are prepared to owe up and pay up.
Business studies and /or managment training at Universities are the first target for change.
To study these business studies should only be possible in conjunction with a natural science of sorts, they should understand the principles of sustainable actions, they must be made aware of the social impact of their future employment and its practises.
Any banking reform cannot come from within the banking sector, nor should bankers have much input in it, it must deal with offshore havens such as jersey and the C&T’s otherwise it does not make sense, tax evasion and avoidance by the 1% is rife, a sport to them, just as Polo. Banks and TNC’s have had the run of the mill for the last four decades, they have had it their way in international trade rounds and negotiations and they had it their way after we bailed them out, they are still having it their way.
Recollecting the term of phrase; “Real Economy”, which was bandied about when the lines of fearful depositors started appearing, in front of most of Northern Rock, bank/building society/con artistry. This was an admission, albeit indirect, denoting the unreal, virtual, imaginary nature of the other economy, which we all have had pushed down our throats, at least thrice a day, in the shape of Indices of the markets.
,
As in fashion after the b grade Soaps put together, in the Auz; the prison warders continuously referring to the “department”, we have a constant reference to the markets. Markets; are jittery, .. are buoyant, … are flat, … expect this, and that, ad nauseum. Evidently the manic depressive, and feeble markets, in a fashion taking after the Over Lords of the Universe, whom have designed these, and run these, are for ever in need of tending, and nurturing, and at every turn, when they do well, the decrepit old men congratulate themselves, and hand out big wads of cash, to the minions running the joint. Needless to point out, when the markets have been unattended, and don’t do so well, as in a fashion after the Aztecs, we the people are squeezed some more to make amends, and take out less, consume less, and burrow more to appease the capricious markets, and keep up the lifestyles of the marketeers.
,
Fact that suddenly we were being told there are two economies, one of which was real, was in fact soft soaping us all to get ready for the subsequent bouts of our pips squeaking, as the squeeze was put on us all. However, in this charade for those whom could discern; the clear parallels of the mine scrip/tokens of ye olde days, were an all too apparent conclusion. The tokens or scrip were not legal tender per say, but a form of credit that was extended to the miners, to buy their food stuffs in the company shop, and pay their rent for the company house, and get drunk in the company bar. In fact the abolishment of slavery meant that the slave owner was relieved from his/her duty of care towards the slaves (white as well as black, Scots and Irish were sold to slavery along with Africans for many years), and instead the introduction of the credit slavery meant slaves could look after themselves, and keep producing for the same families, and entities as before, all the while drunk on their “freedoms”.
,
The shameful fact that in every Euro, Pound, and Dollar almost 45% is paid back in interest payments, at the point of any transaction, somehow is never clarified. After all, considering the lack of understanding of the general issue citizen, when it comes to percentages, and financial deals, makes this travesty possible. This figure is neither exaggerated, nor baseless, it has bee derived on the combined repayments of personal debt, supplier debt, local/national governmental debt, as well as the accrued debt to the point of the transaction for all the actors involved. All too often debt is looked at; as a single issue concerning the debtor, wrongly of course. This is simply due to service of the debts accrued and translated into a substantial chunk of every single working individuals earnings. Furthermore, the impact of this extortionate levy proves a big burden for those low earners, which in turn excludes these from any progress, clearly perpetuating a stable of underclass, that can be drawn upon to act as muscle, for nefarious and criminal purposes, as well as used for policing of the other social classes.,
,
Meanwhile back at the ranch the “department” keeps selecting the political actors with a view to making legal the points arising in furtherance of the debt slavery and plunder policy, which is then sold as “democracy”, and “freedom”.
Uzbeck in the UK:
There is a real danger in the philosophy of the middle. The extremes are wrong and the answer lies in the middle some where. From a moral standpoint this effectively creates an amoral situation where morality is defined from without. It is how the Republican party has managed to do so well in shaping debate within the US. The more extreme they are the more the middle moves to the right, and the Democratic party moves to the right in order to capture the undecided voter. Rinse and repeat.
I’m not saying you are wrong, that extreme Socialism flipping to extreme Barbarism is not a huge problem, but you run the risk of ending up with Barbarism-Socialism. You need a clear moral path that recognizes evil and rejects it no matter what the political system is.
Liberals have a bad name – and with good reason. Too many of them fall into this “philosophy” of the middle. It’s one of the reasons I like reading here. If I understand correctly, Craig is a militant Liberal with a clear vision of right and wrong. His philosophy means something. It stands for something. He isn’t here because this is the middle. He has stood up for decency even when it put him on the far outside.
And that’s the difference – decency vs. conformity.
It’s not the material consumption that’s important. A City boss may spend 20 grand on wine in one evening (as reported in City AM recently) but there is a limit to how much anyone can spend even on wine.
The money is not primarily for material consumption – it is mainly for power and influence. That’s where it matters to the rest of us. And I’m sure the City money pouring into the Conservative party is only a small part of this.
And there is another related reason of course – they are (and for a long time I have thought this) ensuring their own survival in the coming disaster for the rest of us.
The money that is paid to directors come from the company which belongs to its shareholders, the shareholders can choose to pay any amount, what does it have to do with us how much they pay, its a contract between two parties, We can if possible boycott the company/corporation which we think is over paying their board. Does anybody think the Apple ceo steve jobs does not deserve his pay? what about the people who run Sky TV,
Yes, the OWS may deserve support but you need to be a bit cautious as well. Especially when the protesters start to demand MORE globalisation as a solution for the present situation. It is globalisation that is the problem since it facilitates the mega-powerful people’s control over the world. Of course they want more globalisation and what better way is there to use peoples frustration to further that goal.
.
Follow the trail: Occupy Wall Street -> Adbusters -> Tides Foundation -> Open Society Foundation -> George Soros -> House of Rothschild
“This suggestion is from one who was born and lived in the society where extreme form of Socialism was running the ball until it turned into extreme form of Barbarism. Both were extremely harmful for the society which still feels pain and struggles to overcome this past.”
.
Uzbek in the UK, let me explain, what you lived under was not socialism, it just called itself socialism. If it didn`t do what it says on the tin then it ain`t socialism, how can it be. The right wing has always used examples of failed (so called) socialist states but when you take a close look what are they, speak as you find/see, each one of the failed (so called) socialist states is an identical of a…Fascist/Totalitarian state. Think about it, just because it says its something doesn`t mean it is. In truth the world has never known a socialist state, it has not been allowed, each time it has tried to emerged it has been corrupted or killed at birth by the right wing. I don`t think its possible at the present or in the far future!, one day ?, let us dream on, it is all we have.
It seems that yet another dodgy Russian company Polymetal International is now listed in London Stock Exchange. Whereas there is not so much about the company itself there are some serious controversies about two of its main shareholders.
.
Alexander Mamut http://rumafia.com/person.php?id=13
.
Alexander Nesis http://rumafia.com/person.php?id=202
.
Few more dodgy Russian billions are now in safe hands.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/289666-wpp-plc-s-ceo-discusses-q2-2011-results-earnings-call-transcript
Gives WPP’s numbers, profits are not up by 50%, the dividend on certain shares is. Agencies are run for profit, but excessive profit is considered a no-no because this means the client is not getting value for money.
WPP are performing better than they were, but advertising follows GDP, as the economy recovered, so did advertising, if Europe crashes again we will see WPP take a hit, so impressive sounding numbers now are as much a reflection of how bad the crash was, and possibly a warning that things could go pear shaped again. That Sorrell thinks he is entitled to more money now suggests he is taking credit for riding out the storm, in reality the survival of WPP and every other agency group has been down to the staff, who are unlikely to have received any pay rises, and in some markets probably took cuts.
With a holding company like WPP it is important to understand that growth often means using borrowed money to acquire small but successful companies. Over the last 20 years investment banks have funded the grouping of agencies into 4 big players, WPP, IPG, Publicis and Omnicom. This means there is very little real choice in the market, and as soon as any agency rises to challenge they are acquired by one of these big four, with their talent & client relationships. So while Sorrell is smart, the success of WPP is based on having access to cheap money to buy out viable businesses which would become challengers. The staff in these companies work long hours under great pressure, squeezed by both clients, who require ROI, and the holding company, who require enough profit to pay the interest on their debt with some left over for themselves.
Advertising is all about media buying power, much as the industry likes to pretend it’s all about creativity, ideas count, but access to deep pockets counts for more. Media buying requires licenses, having these gives access to revenue streams against which the cost of actually producing the ads pales into insignificance, it is the percentage on this where the holding companies make their money. So while there is competition, it is competition among a select group of players, and any rising rival is swallowed up , like it or not.
Stephen
There are plenty of ways of avoiding tax without having an overseas bank account – and btw I don’t use them since although legal I don’t consider them to be moral.
.
Not a point of view I have any sympathy with, I’m afraid. Moral to finance warmongers? If you give me ten bricks and I use nine of them to build a house and one to smash someone’s head, will you really give me more bricks? I think there’s a very strong moral imperative to minimise the amount of funding going to the British government.
.
I agree that the countries that were bombed ended the relationship between public finance and private banks – the dictators that ran the countries just treated the public finances as it was their own private bank.
.
The corrupt ones got out while the going was good. The ones that stayed and fought generally were (comparatively) clean. The press do like to talk about frozen state funds as if they were the personal funds of the leader, but it aint necessarily so.
“Kennedy for instance authorized the issuance of interest-free Treasury dollars in open defiance of the Fed. His successor terminated the project pronto.”
.
Full story here
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2310&st=0
Edwin,
.
By rejecting two extremes one can avoid being trapped into the vision of that there is no choice but extremes. There are clearly choices that does not involve social revolution on large and destructive scale.
.
If only Russian monarchy in the beginning of 20th century could reform into something more liberal and perhaps allowed more powers to the parliament and more social justice Russia might have not been smashed by Bolshevism. But instead Russians have been left with the choice of another extreme (of course Russian involvement in 1st World War greatly contributed to it) and millions of lives were sacrificed to Bolshevism. Russia (any many other former Bolshevik states) still suffer from the past.
.
If only Weimar Republic could have adjusted to the recession and few relevant policies to come out of it were implemented who knows whether or not Nazis would have been able to gain victory in 1933. Of course there were few other complications with Weimar republic but generally again Germans were left between the simple (and according to you more morally justifiable choice) of two simple extremes of which they have chosen one.
.
And the last: can I please bring to your attention that your spelling of word Uzbek is wrong. I am not sure why people keep making the same spelling error?