NATO were wrong to bomb Libya and kill so many, but that does not make Gadaffi a good guy. He was not – he was cruel, avaricious, and a dictator and really was mentally unbalanced – I speak as someone who met him.
What I now hope for is that civil war ends in Libya and in short order there are genuinely free and fair elections, in which all who wish may participate, to elect the government the Libyan people want. I hope that NATO country interference in Libya now ends and that no commitments are made over Libya’s mineral resources until an elected government is in place to make them.
But I fear that future NATO power interference, starting with the elections, will be less obvious than the mass killings, but in the end even more damaging, and that Libya’s resources and its finance will be handed over to the big corporations lock, stock and barrel. Those who trumpet this as a triumph of “Liberal intervention” are going to have to show a great deal of progress very quickly, if they claim it outweighs the many civilians NATO killed in Sirte and elsewhere – if you believe such a stark utilitarian equation of dead children for democracy can ever have validity.
Craig,
is there or has there ever been such a thing as a dictator? One person cannot rule a nation, they need the support of the military and a good chunk of the general population. If you had been Gaddafi, what would you have done differently, bearing in mind that you would have been in charge of a tribal country, rich in resources and no debt(Western governments hate countries with no debt). Capitalist imperialists have been out to get him from day one, imagine that and how paranoid that would make you feel. Gaddafi had human failings like everybody else, he was born and brought up in a harsh, unforgiving environment and had a dream to improve the lot of his compatriots which he largely succeeded in doing. One could ask what his enemies who he was so brutal to were out to achieve. Perhaps the real reason for NATO’s intervention was the Libyan govt’s plan for the African Gold Dinar which threatened to cause a massive shift in wealth and the balance of power. Perhaps this could also be seen as a proxy war against China which would have benefitted from the above as well as its involvement in infrastructure projects in Libya.
Try going onto YouTube and type in Gaddafi motorcade. Watch and then imagine our beloved Cameron doing the same.
I think this much is obvious. Gaddafi’s convoy was hit by a NATO airstrike. He was wounded and pulled out of his vehicle. He wasn’t pulled out of a drain. He was taken away in a pick up and given the double tap out of sight of witnesses. One bullet in the torso and another in the head. Hillary Clinton said she wanted him ‘dead or alive’. That was the death sentence. The ‘international community’ didn’t want awkward testimony at the Hague. Gaddafi had nothing to do with Lockerbie, the shooting of Yvonne Fletcher or the East Berlin Disco bombings. MI6 persuaded him to shoulder part of the IRA budget in the 1980s. We all know what Lord James said last November. Gaddafi’s worst brutality was the executions after the 1996 MI6 ‘Tunworth’ plot to kill him that Shayler testified to. We even have the CX telex. As for Gaddafi’s rambling, I have known MI6 officers who couldn’t say a straight sentence, for example Sir Richard Stagg. Craig doesn’t mention that when he spoke to Gaddafi, the man had been subjected to repeated British attempts to kill him going back to the seventies. That wouldn’t have made for relaxed conversation. And in my experience, men who like pretty whores are a lot more normal than men who don’t like pretty whores. He could have escaped from Libya but he preferred to die fighting. We need someone like that in Downing Street. I think that I would have got on quite well with Gaddafi. Right now, the Rothschilds are hyperplundering Britain, Europe and the United States. It’s well deserved.
I’d like to purchase Ghaddaffi’s gun and use it in an arts project called dictators.
What would be the price? And how could it possibly happen?
A good burst of posts above, especially Herbie, Kevin, Clanger, Gordon and a few others. Thanks.
A better man than we’ve seen in UK politics in my lifetime.
RIP
@Gordon Logan
Ditto.
,
Poor Shayler, he was persecuted, hounded, and tormented out of his mind, ending up in a squat, in his current state of mind. The unctuous operatives posing as our “Political Leaders”, as per your own research have the capability of control by wire of the various “news media” outlets, editors, and journalists, whom regurgitate, the memos sent across their desks, without so much as missing a comma. The notions of Mad, Bad, Bastard Gaddafi as well as the rest of invectives heaped upon the formerly alive colonel, whose body is on parade in a meat market fridge in Misrata. Whilst the tortured (cuts to his neck, flesh gouged out of his chest, and knife plunged into his stomach) dead body of his son is on parade somewhere else. The clips of Moammar and Motassim being “interrogated” beforehand, compliment the macabre theatrics, the culmination of years of machination; to do away with Gadaffi.
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Considering that an air-conditioned coach is not exactly a bunga-bunga party (Berlusconi) on wheels, so prevalent in Italy, or under-age boys hired for Afghan pederasts in power by various US based contractors. Also being distant, and aloof (inability to relate easily) are not traits of “Madness”, Craig in reality is falling into the trap of “repetition makes any assertion into fact” syndrome. This is further highlighted, by his assumption; doe-eyed groupies of those personalties/leaders whom stand up against the tyranny of US, cannot see the bastards to a man of these, whom are even worse evil doers.
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The Madness of Gadaffi was part of the solution that SIS were applying to the problem posed by him. The smear is an age old weapon in the arsenal of the ne’er-do-wells strutting their stuff to defend their manner, so to speak. In fact Craig himself was the; “prostitute chasing, gambling drunkard, whom had turned the British embassy in Tashkent into a whore house”, as well as engaging in all manner of misconduct in office, by virtue of being wrongly chosen, and undeservedly appointed to do an ambassador’s job in Tashkent. The hatchet job done on him on the Channel 4 news, and other BBC channels, and elsewhere, were followed soon after he first blew the whistle on the dastardly deeds of Karimov the murdering bastard.
,
However, sanctions racket is not over as yet, and there remains yet more punitive financial measures that are to be applied to Libya, it is early days. Further application of Philippine solution to Libya, could yet take a turn for the worse, and we may witness the “civil war” between the various factions, judging by the number of questions in that direction posed to the gun wielding clapping and singing militia by the various stenographers posing as journalists in situs in Libya.
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@ Mark_golding,
You hang in @Gordon Logan
Ditto.
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Poor Shayler, he was persecuted, hounded, and tormented out of his mind, ending up in a squat, in his current state of mind. The unctuous operatives posing as our “Political Leaders”, as per your own research have the capability of control by wire of the various “news media” outlets, editors, and journalists, whom regurgitate, the memos sent across their desks, without so much as missing a comma. The notions of Mad, Bad, Bastard Gaddafi as well as the rest of invectives heaped upon the formerly alive colonel, whose body is on parade in a meat market fridge in Misrata. Whilst the tortured (cuts to his neck, flesh gouged out of his chest, and knife plunged into his stomach) dead body of his son is on parade somewhere else. The clips of Moammar and Motassim being “interrogated” beforehand, compliment the macabre theatrics, the culmination of years of machination; to do away with Gadaffi.
,
Considering that an air-conditioned coach is not exactly a bunga-bunga party (Berlusconi) on wheels, so prevalent in Italy, or under-age boys hired for Afghan pederasts in power by various US based contractors. Also being distant, and aloof (inability to relate easily) are not traits of “Madness”, Craig in reality is falling into the trap of “repetition makes any assertion into fact” syndrome. This is further highlighted, by his assumption; doe-eyed groupies of those personalties/leaders whom stand up against the tyranny of US, cannot see the bastards to a man of these, whom are even worse evil doers.
,
The Madness of Gadaffi was part of the solution that SIS were applying to the problem posed by him. The smear is an age old weapon in the arsenal of the ne’er-do-wells strutting their stuff to defend their manner, so to speak. In fact Craig himself was the; “prostitute chasing, gambling drunkard, whom had turned the British embassy in Tashkent into a whore house”, as well as engaging in all manner of misconduct in office, by virtue of being wrongly chosen, and undeservedly appointed to do an ambassador’s job in Tashkent. The hatchet job done on him on the Channel 4 news, and other BBC channels, and elsewhere, were followed soon after he first blew the whistle on the dastardly deeds of Karimov the murdering bastard.
,
However, sanctions racket is not over as yet, and there remains yet more punitive financial measures that are to be applied to Libya, it is early days. Further application of Philippine solution to Libya, could yet take a turn for the worse, and we may witness the “civil war” between the various factions, judging by the number of questions in that direction posed to the gun wielding clapping and singing militia by the various stenographers posing as journalists in situs in Libya.
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,
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@ Mark_golding,
You hang in there, they are just trying to put the frighteners on you, and shut you up. Standard technique, for handling dissidents. However, looking on the bright side; you have hit the mark so to speak, and made the bastards uncomfortable enough, for you to be put on the list; the awakening continues, and the agents are running ragged.there, they are just trying to put the frighteners on you, and shut you up. Standard technique, for handling dissidents. However, looking on the bright side; you have hit the mark so to speak, and made the bastards uncomfortable enough, for you to be put on the list; the awakening continues, and the agents are running ragged.
Bob
That’s a good point about Craig having been subject to his own mini-demonisation after he failed to play the game. Gadaffi writ small.
Jimmy Iguana, comedy gem, man! Brilliant!
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Mark, if there’s something of great import wrt Robin Cook which the world as a whole does not know, it may be that you are likely to be in less danger if you tell it to the world; a secret only has power as long as it remains a secret. Better to tell the multitudes rather than one or two – they can’t kill us all… can they…?
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So, go on, be a devil!
@ All,
AN OBITUARY FOR GADAFFI AND LIBYA.
The first point is that Libya is a country of tribes. How, pray tell, does anyone rule a country that is comprised of tribes with tribal loyalities?
Would anyone, after reading this obituary, say:-
A. Would they have approached the rule of Libya any differently than Gadaffi?
B. If a different form of rule was to provide the guiding light for the rule of Libya, what form of rule, and in what ways ( based on the factual record of development of Libya) would the alternative form of rule ( on the balance of probablilites) have brought more and better benefits for the Libyan people (i.e. bearing in mind that Gadaffi from 1969 moved Libya from probaly the worst and maybe poorest country on the African continent to the richest)?
C. What by all means – were the ”wrongs” of Gadaffi; what were the ”rights” – and – on a fair balance sheet of wrongs and rights – how does Gadaffi’s Libya balance out?
Is it rational and acceptable in modern times that a King, namely, King Idris, would have up to the 1969 revolution, some 80% of Libyan illiterate ( i.e. in a de facto colony at the time of the revolution).
The post-1969 record for Libya is:-
By reference to UN measures and statistics, Libya had the highest standard of living in all of Africa.
Libya has a Man Made River Project which is the world’s largest underground system of pipes and aqueducts. It was built at a cost of $33 billion. Some 6.5 million cubic meters of fresh water per day is/was brought to Tripoli, Benghazi and other cities (i.e. at least before NATO started bombing Libya).
The rights for women by reference the rest of the Arab world, is well ahead of any other Muslim or Arab nation. ( On a lighter note – the eccentric Gadaffi maybe was advertising this fact with his entourage of 40 female bodyguards http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD3Qolg-dbw).
All Libyans had free health care and subsidised housing ( now what happens next after NATO’s chosen regime is placed in power?).
All Libyans had free healthcare ( now what happens next after NATO’s chosen regime is placed in power?).
Not least of all, the infant mortality rate relative to the rest of Africa, and the average life expectancy, had from the rule of Idris, under Gadaffi increased by 22 years and was 74 years in 2010.
At the time that Libya started to be bombed by NATO, it did not owe a penny in foreign debt and it has literally billions in positive reserves in both money and gold bullion.
Now, someone please provide some helpful facts :-
Q. 1 – Were the Libyan people better off under King Idris – or – did Gadaffi do wonders for the
upliftment in the health care, water provision, housing, GNP, GDP, education and entire social
welfare of the Libyan people by reference to the objective facts?
Q. 2 – Do honest people hail as “progress” the return to the value system prevalent under a
monarchist’s flag ( e.g. open racism and slaughter by the rebels of Black Africans)?
Q.3. Weighing fully the “bad” and “good” of Gadaffi’s rule – by what objective standard does one judge
the superimposing, by way of relentless bombing of the Libyans by NATO, and the consequences
to follow – maybe time will tell – history may just be the judge if truth ultimately is to be told?
I believe that I must now, therefore salute the triumph of ”civilisation” over ”barbarism” in Libya; of Western representative democracy’s triumph over Gadaffi’s barbaric participatory democracy of Jamahairiya; of the capture of Libyan resources and assets in the billions over utilisation of Libyan wealth in support of Libyan welfare spending, housing, education, health care, African development and support of liberation movements (Nelson Manela’s ANC included) and the triumph of Western guidance over Gadaffi’s barbarbaism:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umgMDJIpkn0
The warm embrace of Mandela ( former designated ”terrorist” by the West – and subsequenttly widely respected statesman) speaks volumes about the story yet to be written. While Reagan and Thatcher wanted to prolong Apartheid’s life, and Isreal provided nuclear technology to arm Apartheid South Africa, the ”mad Gadaffi” was financing the liberation of Africa, and seeking, as he did, to ensure in practical terms Africa’s development ( e.g. the purcahse of a telecommunications satellite to save Africa each year some 500m – Regional African Satellite Communication – which money otherwise went to France). But when a ”mad man” does this – there is a need to have sane actions intervene with a rejection of the African Union’s ( AU) roadmap for peaceful resolution ( NATO and the rebels having totally rejected that peacful solution as proposed) – but a very sane round of months of ”humanitarian bombing” does provide the better solution for the Libyan people ( no referendum – no independendently supervised election – as agreed to by Gadaffi under the AU plan).
In testimony to all the above, I further observe:-
1. Hillary Clinton laughs at the news that Gaddafi has been killed in the manner he was, and her exclamation at the news is ”Wow” and great humour is her ”humane” accompanying response (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgcd1ghag5Y). Ha…ha…ha…ha….and ha.
2. All the NATO nations contributed, if not by direct military participation, then by financial contributions ( France, UK and US included) to the illegal bombing of Libya.
3. The NATO bombing of Sirte, if honest and sensible people think about it, indicates a few things:-
i) After several months of bombing Libya without being able to defeat the Libyans – the extreme, similar to Guernica, was employed against Sirte and Bani Waldi.
ii) Gadaffi did not drop a single bomb on Benghazi, but he was accused of intending to slaughter his people.
iii) NATO actually slaughters Libyans by bombing them relentessly for over seven months.
But – remember – this, unlike Gadaffi’s threatened bombing, is ”humanitarian bombing” against ”savages” for their ”freedom” and ”democracy’s” rerpesentative nations at their best savign LIbya.
4. If Gadaffi was instead a Gulf Potentate, the leader of Yemen, or Bahrain, or Saudi Arabia, or leader of any of the states that the West backs in the Middle East, and was killed in the manner Gadaffi was – then the condemnation from NATO countries would be in unison and all from the US and NATO countries would be condeming – illegality.
Here is a further example of double-standards from Bahrain, where the US is selling arms even in the midst of widespread popular protests against the repression in Bahrain:-
”State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland, said on Friday: “This sale is designed to support the Bahraini military in its defence function, specifically in hardening the country against opposition groups and potential attack or nefarious activity by countries like Iran.”
The irony, of course, is that Gadaffi’s protests of above a million people was in support of his leadership:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_AZMXfUaZA
5. The point, is that criminal acts of violation of the Geneva Conventions and torture of a captured prisoner and leader of a nation, is not a crime if it is Gadaffi’s opponents commiting the crime and NATO bombing the Libyan people, but the same actions become something else that is unaccpetable if it is the leader of a government that the West approves of and supports:-
Article 3 common to the Geneva Conventions prohibits “violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds” of civilians and persons hors de combat. The four Conventions shall include “willful killing” of protected persons from serious crimes. The murder is also a war crime under the Statute of the International Criminal Court (Art. 8, para. 2, par. a) i) and Art. 8, para. 2, al. c) i)
Do you see the global double-standards and support of illegal conduct of which I speak?( cf. Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Yemen – then contrast NATO’s conduct in Libya).
6. While the governements of NATO ganged up on Libya, to destabilise and bomb the Libyan people ( oil companies to move in and Western occupiers then benefit from stolen Libyan assets and oil – as the end game) – but the price that was paid to accomplish this end, is not to be termed the depths of inhumanity, savagery and barbarism from the West – no – such governments and peoples, of course, are all ”civilized”!
In watching this whole debacle of Libya as reported in the Western media, I have now learned fully of the objectivity of the BBC, CNN, Guardian, Times, New York Times and indeed the entire gamut of mainstream Western media.
What a circus of hypocrisy – as barbarism marches on in pursuit of neo-colonialism in Africa, for profits and global hegemony.
There are two parts to the story of the old Colonel’s murder.
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It seems he was travelling in a small convoy of cars which had managed to break out from the besieged town of Sirte, pursued by vehicles of those who were attacking the town, the ‘rebels’, the ‘NTC’, people of a hostile tribe, people from Misurata, friends of NATO, call them what you will.
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Whether there was co-ordination between the pursuers and NATO remains to be learned.
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NATO planes fired missiles at this small convoy of cars escaping from a war zone, from a town under siege.
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Did NATO know what was this convoy? Had the convoy broken through a roadblock, and did the attackers and besiegers, the blockers of roads ask their allies of the skies to destroy it, this convoy of people seeking safety away from the war zone?
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Whether NATO knew who was in the convoy, or only that it was not their guys, it was this act of terrorism from the skies which killed some of the people in the cars, and delivered the others into the hands of their pursuers.
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This was the first part of the story. The second part has been seen, the slapping, the kicking, the tearing out of hair, the stamping upon, the beating and the shooting.
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We’re told enquiries are being made – what happened? What were the circumstances of the death? Lies are being told, stories are being spun and contradicted; the truth is also being told, being attacked and being defended.
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Was he shot by someone under-age, who cannot be prosecuted (under what law)?
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Why are no enquiries being demanded into the first part of the story, the murderous aerial attacks which delivered the old man into the hands and under the feet of the mob? Were the button-pushers of the drones under-age and thus exempt from prosecution, and the missile-firers of the fighter planes?
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Or were they American, French, British, Danish, Dutch, and thus exempt from prosecution?
heartly condolence to my dear leader was very good person tried to keep libiya safe but became unsucessful soo sory on him
heartly condolence to my dear leader was very good person tried to keep libiya safe but became unsucessful soo sory on himfffffffffff
Well Craig, I’m afraid it’s the usual story. Already our new Minister of Defense (P. Hammond) has already told businessmen in Britain to pack their bags and get ready for the contracts bonanza in Libya. Strangely it looks that we are not even going to wait to see the true political complexion of the new government or the extent of its commitment to human rights before we feed at the trough.
One of the most nauseating thing I have seen is this clip:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29472.htm
Hillary Clinton finds the death of Gaddafi funny. What a disgusting human being.
Gaddafi Sodomized By NATO Supported Rebels
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29508.htm
Did the NATO planes which fired missiles at Gadaffi’s convoy know he was in it? If so, they were trying to assassinate him either directly or by delivering him into the hands of the mob from Misurata who were pursuing him.
If not, they were shooting at a group of cars which were trying to flee a besieged town.
Did they also fire at the pursuers? Were they co-ordinating their action with the pursuers?
These questions must also be asked by the UN or whoever investigates the lynching of Colonel Gadaffi.
“Israeli Intelligence Sources: NATO Killed Qaddafi”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27276
The BBC
http://williambowles.info/2011/10/25/the-bbc-natos-media-partner-in-crime-by-william-bowles/
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We pay for the BBC to broadcast this crap!. Might as well hand it over to Murdoch, we wouldn`t notice.
I see that that lying liar Barack ‘Liar’ Obama has been lying in front of a tame TV host again.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/8849663/Barack-Obama-killing-of-Muammar-Gaddafi-shows-need-for-decorum-with-dead.html
The president argued that Gaddafi had had an opportunity to let Libya move on a path toward democracy peacefully.
“He wouldn’t do it,” Mr Obama said.
Forgetting the AU peace plan, are you? The AU plan that called for a ceasefire, and which led to elections? The plan that Colonel Gadaffi agreed to and you rejected because you wanted to keep on bombing and killing until you could be sure that the next government in Libya would bend over and kiss your arse whenever you walked in the room?
Now it’s being said that the Gadaffi convoy was carrying white flags and had agreed safe passage, that the NATO bombers had been told this, and that they chose to attack the cars and deliver their occupants into the hands of the mob.
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I don’t know the truth of that, but it seems to me that it’s a crime to attack cars leaving a war zone, looking for safety, pursued by a mob. They should be offered protection. So, white flags or no, Obama and Sarkozy and their subordinates once again showed the world their cruelty and criminality that day.
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http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29530.htm
Ok so he Gaddafi was bad..They all are..But did he not achieve possibly one of greatest ecological engineering projects in world history..Educate, house and care for his people to a fair standard stay out of debt and accumulate weath for his people and invest in future beneficial to all.
It bugs me when a man who is prepared to die for his beliefs is not recognised for what he was worth.
Which is more than all those central bankers and criminals that had him executed put together.
Someone is saying it was not Gadaffi that was murdered.
http://news.stcom.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6257
They look pretty similar to me, I’m afraid.
Yes, it was a war crime. Utterly shameful.
http://news.yahoo.com/analysis-libyas-ntc-struggles-stay-good-guys-170046597.html
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Reuters reporters have heard residents of one Tripoli suburb shout, “You’re just the same as he was! One dictatorship for another!” at a patrol of NTC fighters, combing the neighborhood for locals they say still worship a dead man.
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I thought the warmongers’ excuse for their orgy of killing and destruction was that Colonel Gadaffi had said he would go house to house to root out the insurgents who were trying to overthrow the state. Now it seems those same insurgents are themselves going house to house to find anyone who even supported their government of 42 years. And do what to them? NATO’s idea was to find towns where Gadaffi’s support was strong, turn them into Guernica, and then fire missiles at anyone trying to escape.