NATO were wrong to bomb Libya and kill so many, but that does not make Gadaffi a good guy. He was not – he was cruel, avaricious, and a dictator and really was mentally unbalanced – I speak as someone who met him.
What I now hope for is that civil war ends in Libya and in short order there are genuinely free and fair elections, in which all who wish may participate, to elect the government the Libyan people want. I hope that NATO country interference in Libya now ends and that no commitments are made over Libya’s mineral resources until an elected government is in place to make them.
But I fear that future NATO power interference, starting with the elections, will be less obvious than the mass killings, but in the end even more damaging, and that Libya’s resources and its finance will be handed over to the big corporations lock, stock and barrel. Those who trumpet this as a triumph of “Liberal intervention” are going to have to show a great deal of progress very quickly, if they claim it outweighs the many civilians NATO killed in Sirte and elsewhere – if you believe such a stark utilitarian equation of dead children for democracy can ever have validity.
http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1319111952.html
“I hope that NATO country interference in Libya now ends and that no commitments are made over Libya’s mineral resources until an elected government is in place to make them”
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Not to mention its independent banking system and ambitious water and irrigation project. But I’m not holding my breath. The NTC has pledged only to hold elections within 18 (eighteen) months.
Wasn’t there a huge pro Gadaffi rally a few months ago ? dont the media always demonize those they wish to destroy?
I share you hopes Craig. They are decent and liberal to the core, only I feel the era of liberal democracy is over, replaced by a vile neo-conservative agenda and strategy to re-establish western imperial control over the world, after the defeat of Soviet Communism, which is arguably what put a break on our imperial ambitions. Minus the ‘threat’ from Communism, the alternative to capitalism, it’s back to imperialism as usual.
Now we are back in Libya we’ll never let it go again, and the usual Arab dictatorship model will be the best ordinary Lybians can look forward to, democracy, other than in name, is not part of the plan. Ordinary people in Lybia will probably soon look back on the Gaddafi era as something close to a golden age of prosperity and progress.
We seem to have a strategy for “democracy” that involves smashing countries to pieces and creating chaos and a weak centre; as in Afghanistan and Iraq. The central state, or what’s left of it, is then dependent on our military to maintain some semblance of control and legitimacy. We allow elections and a kind of Potempkin democracy, whilst real independence and soveriegnty is an illusion, as in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I think the attack on Lybia was part of a longer and larger strategy to push China out of Africa and regain control for ourselves of Africa’s resources.
Death of innocent people and women and children in particular can never justify anything, even promotion of freedom and democracy. It is always hard choice on whether to allow dictatorship to flourish quietly claiming some lives year after year or to intervene which can bring death on larger scale and before eyes of humanity.
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I agree with everything you mentioned over Libya but I am not so naive as to expect anything you stated to become true. Oil will soon be placed under secure control of Western corporations and its revenues will enrich few London based Hedge Funds. Neo-colonialism is at its best.
Just what was NATOs remit in all this?
genuinely free and fair elections
If that happens NATO will have to bomb them again.
Whilst I’m rather enamoured with the concept of democracy, in theory, I’m not sure about how it works in practice.
I like the idea of free and fair elections, if such a thing is possible, but I’m sceptical that elections reflect fundamental,structural, power relationships in society, they certainly don’t really change them that much, even in a country like the UK, which supposedly has the best democractic system found anywhere.
Are most people really all that interested in politics or democracy? Do they want power and not just the influence of a vote for some representative?
I’ve always believed that for democracy to function properly, that is, power in the hands of the people, one needed a high degree of economic and not only political equality.
(sorry, I saw my long name was pushing the page around)
Craig, I wonder why you said he was avaricious. The residences we’ve seen pictured were strikingly modest for a head of state. There are stories of his kids chucking cash around, but then we’re spending £500,000 a year on unnecessary bodyguards for Prince Andrew’s useless daughters – not really the Queen’s fault.
Mr Marry,
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Sorry for being off topic but has some progress been made in Malyshevs case? Have they manage to contact any of the legal aid representatives? As you probably know yourself the plane to Tashkent departs at 9.15 pm tomorrow. Can Amnesty or HRW use their influence and knock doors of Human Right Committee in the Parliament (if there is one)?
Seeing that the collapse of the Ba’athist regime in Iraq has been followed by years of mayhem with rival religious and/or family groups vying for power and terrorising actual and perceived members of rival groups — a process that has not yet anything like ended — might this not be repeated in some way or another in Libya?
I had no more time for Gaddafi than I had for Saddam Hussein, both were unpleasant dictators, but I have a feeling that the post-Gaddafi Libya will see any genuinely democratic elements get sidelined as ex-Gaddafi heavies and Islamists and sundry clan leaders vie for power, and that the social advances and modernisation made under the dictatorship will be lost (they certainly have been lost in Iraq).
There will probably be elections, as there have been in Iraq, but will there be parties that genuinely represent the interests of the bulk of the population as opposed to narrow clique or family or indeed foreign interests?
Still, so long as the oil flows abroad and the profits therefrom flow to London, Paris and Washington, that makes it a success, doesn’t it?
Let us examine, what has happened in Libya;
1- Destruction of infrastructure; utilities, electricity, roads,bridges, etc.
2- Destruction of political constructs.
3- Destruction of Libyan forces; army, air force, navy, police.
4- Destruction of civil society, and scattering of the processionals to four corners of the globe, much needed for reconstruction.
5- Reallocation of topography of tyranny into ownership of new sock puppets.
The tasks as yet not completed;
6- Revision of the Libyan constitution, and incorporation of Iraq Constitution redux; ala Monsanto seeds only, and here we go whole sale privatisation of Libya included the alphabet that spells it.
7- Provisions for a new American Base, all paid for by the Libyan funds.
8- payment for all the help offered to Libya by the concerned belligerents engaged in the humanitarian slaughter of Libyans; ie the $150 billion frozen in the NATO countries banks and US banks. Thanx for the funds Libyan Dudes.
10- setting loose the dogs of profit, and subcontract of Libyan reconstruction to NATO, and US countries at thrice the going market prices, at least.
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Well that concludes this mission of mercy and liberation of funds, and lands, and resources.
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PS. Carig you mentioned having met Gaddafi, and then added he was unbalanced, not being pedantic, or rude, but what does that mean? This is the line pushed by the Auntie and venerable Kabul invading John Simpson, and some other pundits, but really what is this about?
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Gaddafi never ran naked, or smoked pot, or sniffed cocaine, like so many other sane operatives in the politics, so what was his illness, and how was it manifest?
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Thanking you in advance, for the reply.
this is an interesting piece:
http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/10/israel-in-libya-preparing-africa-for-the-clash-of-civilizations/
Also, we all must use caution in accepting the Death of Gaddai as a fact, due to the extensive measures of Psy-ops deployed, during the Libyan humanitarian war. This news coming on the heel of Hillary Clinton and her speech, are all too convenient, and fortuitous.
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Therefore best wait for a more solid piece of evidence, than relying on a photo which could have been photoshoped perhaps.
AlJazeera images of Gaddafi being manhandled like a butchered sheep will make the Islamic groups who colluded with NATO heroes in the Muslim world rejoice ( farah )for a time. At last an evil dictator’s scalp for the Arab Spring, a terrible revisionist, torturer, persecutor, and renditioner of Islam and Muslims.
They can claim now that the ends justified the means, and only collaboration with NATO would have removed him, as indeed they removed Saddam Hussain.
But it would not be a good idea to get too happy until we see what happens next. The UKUSIS uses the Lawrence Ladder strategy to control the Arab tribes. You start off with the lowest in status and work upwards until the whole society is eating out of your hands. Not to mention continuous false-flag terror to de-stabilise and disunite the people.
Whether or not the collaboration of NATO and (so-called ) AlQaida was justified, I am not in a position to judge. But if this collaboration is seen as successful by the parties involved this time, expect to see many more similar collaborations in the near future.
That should make all dictators quake in their boots, and don’t forget we in the UK are on the list of dictators as well.
Mad as a hatter, but its difficult to fault some of his achievements. Libya is tribal and that wont change just because NATO won the war.I hope that NATO stop bombing and stay away but we know they wont.Ghaddafi was the excuse and the key to the door.Guess we’ll find out why there was a rush to war in due course.
It’s so very difficult to foresee what will happen now to a very broken society traumatised by 8 months of bombing and literally having to pick up whats left of the pieces.
Will they be forgiving to Europe after what we’ve done to them ?
The only good thing about this is that Liam Fox will be sick as a parrot.I bet he already had his ticket booked with his best friend.
“we all must use caution in accepting the Death of Gaddai as a fact”
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I for one won’t believe it until they chuck the body in the sea.
With Libya secured, an American invasion of the African continent is under way
John Pilger
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29461.htm
Ha! Just a matter of waiting to see which way to jump, eh Craig — before giving Cameron and Clegg the thumbs up on the destruction of the “cruel and avaricious” Gaddafi regime.
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That Gadhaffi raised Libyans from among the poorest in Africa to the wealthiest, counts for nothing, obviously, in the face of your unsupported assertion of Gadhaffi’s greed.
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Likewise, that David Cameron is the lead PR man for a kleptocratic system that a ruler of desert tribes could only dream of does not for moment deter you from justifying NATO’s murderous assault on Libya by an unsupported assertion of Gadhaffi’s greed.
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That your liberal friend Clegg has stood staunchly in support of Cameron in an operation that has killed more Libyans in three months than Gadhaffi likely killed in his 40-year exercise of authority over a tribal society with a history of violence is, naturally, just as unimportant in the light of your fatuous assessment of Gadhaffi’s insanity.
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Amazing, what a liberal scotch separatist thinks.
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But for God’s sake spare us the hypocritical hand-wringing about the handing over of Libya’s resources to the big corporations.
“I for one won’t believe it until they chuck the body in the sea.”
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Why, when they’ve just disposed of the evidence, would you believe it then?
I do believe MJ was making a funny, Canspeccy.
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(and it appears that I am now in moderation? Why?)
Bandit said:
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“Thanking you in advance, for the reply.”
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I should think you’ll be waiting a while. LOL.
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This blog proceeds on the basis of bullshit and bafflegab well guarded by a bodyguard of liberal smear artists. Rational debate is not encouraged.
Halliburton has said that Libyan operations are expected to make a “positive contribution in 2012”
Nuid said,
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(and it appears that I am now in moderation? Why?)
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The way this discussion is currently trending, you’ll likely not be the only one “in moderation” (libspeak for censorship).
@MJ ‘I for one won’t believe it until they chuck the body in the sea.’
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Ha ha very funny!
Scots, canspeccy, the adjective is Scots, not scotch. If you’re going to have a rant on someone else’s blog, and make some valid points, you spoil it by ending it with personal insults. And even worse by getting their nationality wrong. Could do better, don’t you think?
“Amnesty International called for an independent inquiry into the circumstances of the death of Muammar Gaddafi, who appears to have been captured alive before being shot.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/call-for-inquiry-into-gaddafi-death-2373545.html
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Why am I in moderation on the “ethnic cleansing” thread? There isn’t even one link in my comment.
‘I for one won’t believe it until they chuck the body in the sea.’
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Can be taken various ways.
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I took it literally. But Nuid is surely right, it was not intended that way. But maybe it wasn’t intended to be so funny either, as in:
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we’ll know those bastards are lying as they did about Bin Laden, when they (claim to) chuck the body in the sea.
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But I don’t see much reason for mystery in this case. Bin Laden’s body was likely disposed of some years ago, hence necessitating some rigmarole to conceal the lack of a body — the right body anyhow — at Abbottabad. But if Gadhaffi is dead, the killers likely have the body and can display it. But if Gadhaffi is not dead, faking his death would be foolish since he would surely show up again to refute the fakery.
@Nuid,
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“Muammar Gaddafi, who appears to have been captured alive before being shot.”
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If the US is ever defeated, this could mean a death sentence for Hilary Clinton, who called for Gadhafi’s killing.
Thanks Nuid for the Pilger link. He wasn’t to know Gaddafi would be killed today when he wrote it. Like all Pilger’s reports it is written with conviction and astute observation.
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‘Africa is China’s success story. Where the Americans bring drones and destabilisation, the Chinese bring roads, bridges and dams. What they want is resources, especially fossil fuels. With Africa’s greatest oil reserves, Libya under Muammar Gaddafi was one of China’s most important sources of fuel. When the civil war broke out and Nato backed the “rebels” with a fabricated story about Gaddafi planning “genocide” in Benghazi, China evacuated its 30,000 workers in Libya. The subsequent UN security council resolution that allowed the west’s “humanitarian intervention” was explained succinctly in a proposal to the French government by the “rebel” National Transitional Council, disclosed last month in the newspaper Liberation, in which France was offered 35 per cent of Libya’s gross national oil production “in exchange” (the term used) for “total and permanent” French support for the NTC. Running up the Stars and Stripes in “liberated” Tripoli last month, US ambassador Gene Cretz blurted out: “We know that oil is the jewel in the crown of Libyan natural resources!”’