NATO were wrong to bomb Libya and kill so many, but that does not make Gadaffi a good guy. He was not – he was cruel, avaricious, and a dictator and really was mentally unbalanced – I speak as someone who met him.
What I now hope for is that civil war ends in Libya and in short order there are genuinely free and fair elections, in which all who wish may participate, to elect the government the Libyan people want. I hope that NATO country interference in Libya now ends and that no commitments are made over Libya’s mineral resources until an elected government is in place to make them.
But I fear that future NATO power interference, starting with the elections, will be less obvious than the mass killings, but in the end even more damaging, and that Libya’s resources and its finance will be handed over to the big corporations lock, stock and barrel. Those who trumpet this as a triumph of “Liberal intervention” are going to have to show a great deal of progress very quickly, if they claim it outweighs the many civilians NATO killed in Sirte and elsewhere – if you believe such a stark utilitarian equation of dead children for democracy can ever have validity.
“This news coming on the heel of Hillary Clinton and her speech, are all too convenient, and fortuitous.”
.
.
no, special ops probably had him in their sights.
.
.
so this is the NTC, and this is NATO. and this is the Civilised. World.
Mr.D said, “The clincher for me about Gaddafi was seeing the footage on the Guardian website featuring a guy from HRW talking about how Gaddafi had a group of dissidents ‘tried’ and then hung in front of a hall full of schoolchildren.”
*
Seems like you’re easily clinched, Mr. D.
*
If the footage had been of the execution before a hall full of schoolchildren then I could see the clinch potential. But since it was merely footage of a bloke speaking for George Soros and co. it’s about as convincing as the stuff we heard in 2003 about Saddams Nooks and his drones of death that could spread bubonic plague over London at 15 minutes notice.
*
“Craig may be able to confirm or deny my impression that he was by and large a man of his (often strange) word; certainly when the realistic options are running out.”
.
.
he certainly wasnt mad, bad yes but nothing more than hilary clinton or our very own cameron/blair.
.
.
would cameron, blair, osbourne, gove, may, et al have remained to fight to the death .. i somehow doubt it.
“and this is the Civilised. World”
*
All civilization depends on the application of abundant brute force, as required.
*
Question is, was Libya, as the wealthiest country in Africa and doing business with China rather than France and Britain something our civilization could not live with?
*
I am really not sure.
*
But what I believe our civilization will not survive is the endless mendacity of the ruling elite and their hangers on. If we have to kill people for our own survival, lets be honest about it and steel ourselves to the task, instead of masking the horror with dubious claims about the degraded bestiality of our opponents.
“Hold on a minute – eh, we were not allowed to see pictures of a ‘gruesome’ Bin Laden shot in the head – but Gaddafi’s macabre and hideous head-shot adorns plasma screens in millions of evening sitting rooms. Strange world?”
.
.
but this is a real Nato Victory. For “Drone Justice”. The Empire wants it to be known and of course so that sweets can be distributed on the streets of London.
.
.
“If we have to kill people for our own survival, lets be honest about it and steel ourselves to the task, instead of masking the horror with dubious claims about the degraded bestiality of our opponents.”
.
.
interestingly this is answered and built upon by max keisers on his show today – will be on later (Russia Today (RT) sky sat channel.)
Do alleged “evil dictators” have a manual that instructs them to immediately flee to a “rat hole” until pulled out, summarily executed and plastered all over the Western media broadsheets? Sorry, much to similar to the alleged capture and death of Saddam Hussein to pass the smell test.
http://joequinn.net/2011/10/20/gadaffi-dead-just-like-saddam-hussein/
Yes, I’ve been informed now that the sewage pipe tale was untrue – probable disinformation, as Joe suggests. I’m sure there will be a lot more of that in the days to come.
“Yes, I’ve been informed now that the sewage pipe tale was untrue – probable disinformation, as Joe suggests. I’m sure there will be a lot more of that in the days to come.”
.
.
they were only following the orders from their $ponsors.
Uzbeck,
Your spelling of Craig’s surname is INCORRECT. Кстати, я не Арсалан, ты это можешь перевести своему другу Suhayl Sadi. واشالام
Voila
‘There were reports earlier of Gaddafi asking the man who killed him: what have i done to you? After hearing such question i wouldn’t be able to kill him even if he was the most cruel despot and bloodsucker.’
.
I bet Libyans who parished in Libyan desert in the pat 42 years have been asking the same question again and again. It did not help them either. Not to justify Gadaffi’s killing but lion without teath and claws becomes prey for other lions. Rule of jungle and nothing more.
Voila just to let you know that I am not an interpreter.
.
And well spoted on typo of Mr Murray.
.
And also speaking russian I presume you know for sure how word Uzbek is spelt and your typos are intentional (I suspect).
“Halliburton has said that Libyan operations are expected to make a “positive contribution in 2012″”
Like the GMRP did during its construction throughout the 90s and beyond.
Spot on, Bandit.
I’m waiting for the answer too.
@ Larry Levin,
Maybe Gadaffi is dead. We, however need to check the pulse and the heartbeat of the Libyan conflict very carefully before we start digging the grave for burial:-
http://libyasos.blogspot.com/2011/10/muammar-al-gaddafi-is-alive.html
you mentioned having met Gaddafi, and then added he was unbalanced, not being pedantic, or rude, but what does that mean?
.
Don’t forget, Craig writes for the Daily Mail, and sometimes it shows.
First we were supposedly protecting civilians that Gadaffi allegedly threatened to massacre. But when they became ‘rebels’, running around the place with various artillery and benefiting from military training, do they not at that point stop becoming “civilians”? So we’re on one side of a civil war, constantly bombing from the air anything with a whiff of the wrong side about it.
.
Great lot we’ve chosen – a real strike for freedom and democracy. They kill their own during infighting and lie about it, stitch up deals with foreigners (us) that are not in the interests of their country, and clearly have no interest in any semblance of due process. Not even to demonstrate how undeserving their former dictator was, by allowing a fair and open trial for crimes against humanity. Rather, we see summary justice from a lynch mob.
.
And the world rejoices.
“Sorry folks – the mad dog is dead!”
*
But no, I just spotted him. Larry from St. Louis is right here plugging he neocon line.
Good point Glenn, which is endorsed by Benjamin J. Ferencz, one of the last living Nuremberg prosecutors, in this letter to the NY times (concerning the alleged assassination of Bin Laden.
*
He states, in part:
*
The Nuremberg trials earned worldwide respect by giving Hitler’s worst henchmen a fair trial so that truth would be revealed and justice under law would prevail. Secret nonjudicial decisions based on political or military considerations undermine democracy. The public is entitled to know the complete truth.
1. Foreign Secretary William Hague acknowledged that the footage appeared to show that Gaddafi was captured alive and then assassinated.
“Until we’re sure I don’t want to add to speculation about that. I agree that the footage does suggest that,” he told Channel 4 News.
“We would have preferred him to be able to face justice at the International Criminal Court or in a Libyan court for his crimes. We don’t approve of extra-judicial killings.
.
2. William Hague, the foreign secretary, said: “If confirmed, the death of Anwar al-Awlaki is another significant blow to al Qaida…We must keep up the pressure on al Qaida and its allies and remain vigilant to the threat we face.”
.
Not a word about disapproval of extra-judicial killings when it’s Barry with his drones, eh, Hague?
.
references:
1. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/call-for-inquiry-into-gaddafi-death-2373545.html
2. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8799295/Same-US-military-unit-that-got-Osama-bin-laden-killed-Anwar-al-Awlaki.html
Canspeccy
I was somehow under the impression that there was quite a lot of torture at Nuremburg, though mainly of the junior types. Probably the ‘worst henchmen’ (I suppose he means most senior) did get more reasonable treatment, because they would have got the most attention.
For Nuremburg to have been taken seriously they’d need to have prosecuted some on the other side, even if it was done somewhere else. About as likely as Hague going to the Hague. There was no shortage of war crimes committed, to say nothing of the abuse and killing by starvation of PoWs, even a year or two after the war ended.
It really has been instructive. The Guardian is in full-on The Witch Is Dead mode, and yet the comments below the line are far more sober. It’s always the same: the MSM spout hard-line neocon bollocks, and the vast majority of the comments call them on it. From reading The Guardian, you’d hardly know that this intervention is deeply controversial. To be honest, if I bought The Guardian, I’d now stop; I certainly won’t buy their iPad app. And The Guardian isn’t even the worst.
This intervention is just the strangest. None of it makes sense, and, like Iraq, we can only surmise as to the real reason. It can’t just be oil; I mean, it IS oil, but this can’t be the sole rationale. I’m just baffled, and sick of reading propaganda. If this is now established policy, we all should fear NATO.
Brendan
Read the comment by Shadz,UK
.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29461.htm
I see there are conflicting stories out – the official story is going to be that when they caught him he already had some gunshot wounds, and then they put him in a car where a stray bullet from ‘crossfire’ got him in the head. I don’t believe it for a second, because
a) watch the video.
b) there was no-one around to be shooting – the people with him either fled when NATO attacked their cars (blatant war crime, by the way) or was killed
c) just the same happened to his son Mutassim who was filmed alive and then later turned up dead.
But obviously the bods in Tripoli (or rather, their sponsors in London, Paris, Copenhagen and Washington) wanted him dead and don’t want any embarrassing questions from human rights types.
The most chilling thing I have seen. We came, we saw, he died. Laughter. A psychopath of the female gender. She and Karimov will have such a good time together.
.
http://www.federaljack.com/?p=127425
It is like spelling things out to small children sometimes. Listen. Just because someone is opposed to the US or the neocons, that does not automatically make them a good person. Not Ahmadinejad, Putin, Gadaffi, Assad or any national ruler I can think of offhand. It is quite possible to be a bastard whose interests are opposed to the particular bastards who rule over most of the commenters on this site, who live in the west.
When Gadaffi travelled by road across the Sahara to the African Union (OAU then called) summit in Lome, he brought with him an entire air conditioned coach load of Estern European prostitutes (who were not disguised as anything else). I witnessed this myself. In conversation he was rambling and disjointed, apparently unable to focus on any particular topic, and in no way engaging with his interlocutors – not I think from doscourtesy, but from inability. Pleasant and friendly but just not quite there – and this was a decade ago. To me it resembled extreme senile dementia, but it is well documented over decades by a great many people who are not all horrible neo-cons.
It left me wondering who was really running Libya – interestingly John Simpson just said pretty well the same thing on the BBC about his many meetings with Gadaffi.
The trouble with many on the left, including commenting here, is that not only do they think that anyone who opposes the neo-cons must be brilliant, heroic and a great thinker, they also think that anyone who points out flaws in anyone opposing the neo-cons must themselves be a neo-con or neo-con puppet. There is no way to argue with that kind of abandonment of logic.
Mary, these people, the Clintons and the like, have no social conscience. They are career politicians. What do they care for you or I? Or Gaddafi? At least Cameron, who was clearly bubbling over with the joy of winning his ‘first war’ managed to keep some dignity. Hilary Clinton is a disgrace, to her gender, to her country, to herself.
The revolt the process will have received injures, but must insist.
.
[Commercial url removed. Jon/mod]
“Кстати, я не Арсалан, ты это можешь перевести своему другу Suhayl Sadi.”.
Voila, since to mention my name, would you be kind enough please to translate. Thank you.
Thanks, Craig. Good point wrt ‘the bastards’ and hilarious vignette, too! A busload of hookers, traveling thru’ the desert – almost magic realist, it beats ‘Borat’ hands-down. Truth is indeed often stranger than fiction.
.
Gaddafi, it seems, was a murderous dictator who wanted to be a rock star. Obscurantism and bizarreness as tactic and as extension of his grandiose personality, perhaps? But “extreme senile dementia”? Are you saying he was like Mobutu in the final years? Wearing nappies and so on? It’s academic now, I guess.
.
Ruth, if you’re reading, please share your thoughts with us. What’s your assessment of Libya’s chances? Is the NTC doing good work in the places they’ve captured – most of the country – or is this just a prelude to an ongoing, deepening civil war? Thanks.