NATO were wrong to bomb Libya and kill so many, but that does not make Gadaffi a good guy. He was not – he was cruel, avaricious, and a dictator and really was mentally unbalanced – I speak as someone who met him.
What I now hope for is that civil war ends in Libya and in short order there are genuinely free and fair elections, in which all who wish may participate, to elect the government the Libyan people want. I hope that NATO country interference in Libya now ends and that no commitments are made over Libya’s mineral resources until an elected government is in place to make them.
But I fear that future NATO power interference, starting with the elections, will be less obvious than the mass killings, but in the end even more damaging, and that Libya’s resources and its finance will be handed over to the big corporations lock, stock and barrel. Those who trumpet this as a triumph of “Liberal intervention” are going to have to show a great deal of progress very quickly, if they claim it outweighs the many civilians NATO killed in Sirte and elsewhere – if you believe such a stark utilitarian equation of dead children for democracy can ever have validity.
“The revolt the process will have received injures, but must insist.”
Really? Sounds a bit romanes eunt domus to me…
Just remember that this is the fate of many a dictator. It is the way of the world, the mob, even if we disapprove. I don’t suppose there was much anger at the death of Mussolini.
The predictable sockpuppetry appearance of Larry from St Louis now convinces me the whole Official Narrative is just lies and propaganda.
Anyone who’d gorged themselves on amphetamine and hookers is bound to be unstable.No surprises there.
‘Mistah Kurtz…he dead.’
I pity the Libyan people with any faith in the cynical shibboleths of NATO-NeoCon provenance.
They ought look around at the complete shambles and economic disater Europe and America have created for their ordinary citizens before adopting the myths of Freedom and Democracy in the Western style.
‘The horror,the horror,’
Brendan – there are quite a lot of Guardian readers who are rather fed up with the line that the paper has been taking recently. You can check us out here:
http://c1nf.wordpress.com/2011/10/13/peterloo-customisers/
Craig – thanks for your comment above. I have copied parts of it over to the said Guardian comments pages and hope that meets with your approval.
I wonder about those Gaddafi ‘supporters’ who crossed over to the rebels. Were they those who had read the runes, and decided to hang on the reins of power? If so, perhaps those who were running Libya are still running Libya.
Craig
What do you mean by “a good person”? Is it something on the lines of someone who is honest and humane and sticks to his principles? If so, I too know of no national leader who fits the bill. Obama had them fooled for a bit – and Jimmy Carter perhaps tries to forget what was happening in Central America during his presidency.
I’m not sure who on here has been saying Gadaffi was ‘brilliant, heroic and a great thinker’ – isn’t it rather that when faced with torrents of propaganda from the Establishment, people who see beyond that naturally like to bring up the parts of the story which are missing from the official version? If I point out that under Gadaffi literacy rose and child mortality fell, or that he invested much of Libya’s wealth helping poorer African nations, that doesn’t mean I’m oblivious to, or deny, his dark side. Isn’t it rather that we heard so much about the dark side that we don’t need or want to repeat it, and that we heard so many lies about it that we can’t speak of it with any degree of confidence? As with Saddam Hussein and Slobodan Milosevic and anyone else the Empire decides to demonise, it’s impossible to sift much certainty out of the morass of propaganda. I’m not going to repeat the story that he was going to massacre half the population of Benghazi – some people believe it, I don’t. I’m not going to repeat the story that he had dissidents hanged in a classroom full of schoolkids.
What I do know is this. My country’s government commits greater crimes than Libya’s government ever did, and I wish to speak out against that. Libya supported the IRA, but it never bombed the BBC from aircraft or fired missiles into coastal cities from warships. I despise David Cameron as a cowardly hypocritical murderer. I wish his government would fall. I wish the structure of the British state could be changed in such a way that this sort of military aggression could never be repeated. If David Cameron were assassinated I would not mourn, but I WOULD NOT like political change and Cameron’s removal to be brought about by foreign intervention, foreign sponsorship of civil war, the killing of my family and friends, the destruction of much of the infrastructure on which my life depends and the replacement of our political system by a bunch of crooks who are utterly beholden to foreign powers and will proceed to sell out our national interests to them.
Faced with a scenario like that, it doesn’t matter if Gadaffi shared Berlusconi’s womanising, or Mao’s brutality, or Blair’s mental imbalance. Our leaders are using the power we gave them to commit mass murder and to visit unimaginable destruction on an independent country, in order to bring it under their control, without regard to the human cost either during the process of subjugation, or in the future.
So if I express revulsion at what has been done, or express empathy for Gadaffi and those Libyans who supported him and died for him, if I point out the parts of the story which are censored by the BBC or fail to remind everyone that life in Gadaffi’s Libya was most likely frightening and unpleasant, it doesn’t follow that I am in denial of anything or that I think anyone who has something bad to say about Gadaffi is necessarily wrong.
After reading so much crap in the Guardian and the Mail and Hansard and so on, though, I do ask that they should be able to justify what they say.
واشالام: Voila. Or was it this that was meant for me? Unfortunately, I can’t read Arabic script.
Why is it a problem for Gaddafi to take a bus load of prostitutes when France, the UK and US are all nations of prostitutes.
The usual imbalance. The Muslims are armed with kalashnikovs and RPGs and NATO has cluster bombs, missiles that make craters you can sink a block of flats in and rifles that shoot bullets so close together you can’t see the spaces between.
Anno,
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Being racist and chauvinist do not help one to prove his opinion being worth anything.
Irrespectively of neo-cons vs neo-liberals death of Gaddafi is a good thing. He was dictator, he killed people (well who does not these days), he stayed in power long enough to be hated by many of his countrymen and women, his moral standing was way below of a leader of a Muslim nation, he clung to power until last minutes of his life, his attitude towards fellow citizens was similar to “you need me not that I need you” and so on.
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I only pray that another brutal (probably even more brutal) dictator fall a victim of a mob one day. Those who deny fair trial to many do not deserve one for themselves.
Those who deny fair trial to many do not deserve one for themselves.
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I hope there are only a few of them, Uz, you don’t mind me calling you Uz, do you, because if there are many and you would deny them a fair trial, well, you see where it leads, don’t you?
Lobg Live Libya!
Now the way is free for it to prosper, engage with the EU, get special trading status, just as Israel, and start developing the infrastructure and economy.
Hire out a few square miles of hot Libyan desert to DESERTEC’s CSP Mahgreb network, let them train Libyans, provide jobs, knowhow and generate electricity for the EU.
Do not get attached to any country in particular and keep your independence over your resources.
If Libya is willing, it could be the electricity generator bar none, the hub of DESERTECS middle European supply lines.
Disarming the general public and setting a date for full democratic and representative elections, under OSCE/UN obsrvers have to be instant concerns, equally the vast funds held by Libya abroad. I hope that those western countries, eager to help the TCN Government will do their utmost to release Libyan funds held in bank accounts, especially in Switzerland, so Libya can start its economy, its water supplies, electricity, schools and hospitals etc. Libya can get back on its feet and has a prosperous future.
I agree with ex serviceman, this co-opted, mangled and convoluted conflict of broken resolutions has seriously questioned NATO’s existence.
It also shows the lack of plan B here in Europe, our need for a European peace and defence force, meanwhikle we’re riding the only devil horse in the race and we’re riding it hard, whips an’ all.
If we all jump off the nag together, it might provide us with a modern, agile but conventional force, sufficient for Europe, but hat would take some concerted will and the Con Dems do not have it, nowhere!
Canny Lass Jim,
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I wish there were only few. But few certainly did not deserve a trial as their guilt has already been proven by victims of their crimes that have rotten consumed by nature. As Amartya Sen said once he was not familiar with word fairness and uses word justice instead. Fairness is not something we have yet discovered and established on earth. But in quest of it millions have perished.
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And also, I prefer to be called Uzbek, at least.
Uzbek
Are you saying that there is no difference between Western people and Muslims who do not have sex before marriage and do not commit adultery during marriage? If so that is a very extraordinary claim.
Anno,
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These do not make women prostitutes. Prostitutes are those who are providing sexual pleasure in exchange for material gifts (money in most cases).
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As you know it is tradition in many Muslim societies for men to pay (of provide material gifts) to women and her family before marriage. Does this make Muslim women prostitutes?
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On the other hand this is pointless debate and you should get rid of your prejudice in order to see a wider picture.
Suhayl: Viola is saying, “By the way, I not Arsalan, can you translate this to your friend Suhayl Saadi”.
Suhayl, a rough rendition of:
Кстати, я не Арсалан, ты это можешь перевести своему другу Suhayl
By the way, I am not Arsalan, you can translate this for your friend Suhayl
which is why Uzbek wrote he was not an interpreter. No idea what the Arabic means.
Snap Glenn.
From a direct Google translation: “By the way, I do not Arsalan, you can convert it to a friend Suhayl Sadi.”
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The Arabic apparently means “And Ashalam”.
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(NB: The ‘Google’ in ‘Google Translate’ means ‘Garble’, not ‘Gospel’.)
Many a true word spoken in jest. BBC now reporting that Gaddaffi may be buried at sea.
Thanks, all – Nextus, John Goss, Glenn – for your translations of Voila’s post. And walaikum-as-salaam to you, Voila. Thanks for clarifying that you are not Arsalan and that Arsalan is not you!
In our “democratic” system of rule we change the “dictator” on a regular basis, in fact that’s what the function of the electorate is, when they get bored or disgusted with one, out he goes and the next one pops up all clean and scrubbed up and media ready.
/
These Arab dictators should really have learnt the lesson by now from the old colonial master, don’t hang around too long or you will end up on the wrong end of a bullet. They should take the money and run for the hills. Blair might be many things but he is obviously no fool and he left moron Brown to carry the can, who was in many respects himself a dictator and somewhat mad.
I see that now Gaddafi is ‘the man with the golden gun in the draining-pipe’. Even if the account of his demise is all true – and it may well be, though inevitably there will be various versions – this is beginning to read like a Salman Rushdie story! Perhaps soon, Gamal Nasser will descend to elevate his self-designated political rogue ‘son’ to the 15th Heaven.
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anno, I realise that you are a good person but that occasionally you indulge in rhetorical hyperbole and feel angry at Western military action – and as you know, many of us share that anger, etc. – but I do have to agree with Uzbek-in-the-UK that patently obviously, everyone in the UK, France, etc. is not a whore. Indeed, the very devout Muslim whores (and pimps, and punters) of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan (to name but two such countries) would probably outnumber those of Western Europe. When you make these statements, you do realise, don’t you, that you are calling quite a few of the (female) commentators on this blog, whores?
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Anyway, as Uzbek-in-the-UK wrote, it is indeed a pointless debate, so why am I engaging in it? Perhaps, anno, it is because I feel that it is important to point out when you go OTT and also to counter such absolutist and unjustifiable statements. And to suggest that yours are not the only possible views to be expressed by a Muslim person on these boards.
Uzbek
You know very well that I am using the term prostitute as seen through the eyes of the Middle-Eastern and many other males, not through my own eyes. Craig mentioned Eastern European prostitutes and I was just pointing out a different perspective.
And I was only doing that in order to draw attention to the fact that the people on the receiving end of NATO’s £10 billion bombing might have a different perspective to ours. It’s called irony. e.g.:
Russian joke heard on the BBC radio 4: Putin always speaks the truth, because what he says is always what happens.
No offence either meant or taken.
I can see it clearly.
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CM: Ah, Mr, er, Colonel Gadaffi, um I couldn’t help noticing you have some, er, how shall I put it, female companions among your entourage…
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MG [aside]: Allah preserve us, not another randy Scot. How shall I get rid of him?
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CM: Erm, I was wondering if, in the interests of, well, international relations, ahem, I might be able to, er, cadge an invite to the, hum, party, as it were [ingratiating smile]
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MG: Ahem, I hear the weather in Bournemouth is bracing at this time of year! [tries to move on]
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CM: Yes, indeed, but well, that is to say, might I perhaps…there was this little brunette…it is awful lonely out here in the desert…
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MG: Did it ever occur to you that the stars are Allah’s daisy chain? [fidgeting, trying to get his aide’s attention]
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CM: [hurried, his accent slipping] or if not there was a blonde, not much tae look at but it’d be reet friendly of ye…
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MG: You must excuse me, my iguana is calling for his ice cream {walks off briskly]
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CM [muttering]: The man’s barking mad. can’t hold down his end of a conversation….
Craig opineth thusly:
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“It is like spelling things out to small children sometimes. Listen. Just because someone is opposed to the US or the neocons, that does not automatically make them a good person.”
“In conversation he was rambling and disjointed, apparently unable to focus on any particular topic, and in no way engaging with his interlocutors – not I think from doscourtesy, but from inability. Pleasant and friendly but just not quite there.”
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Yeah, yeah. King Lear. We know.
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When Gadaffi took over from the old king, he was like a breath of fresh air. Very much the spirit of the Paris spring, the sixties and all that. He massively developed his backward country using its immense resources for his own people. He sought alliances with other Arab leaders to proect his thinly populated country and also in the hope of creating a bulwark against Western imperialism. He wanted them to do more for their peoples too. He was rejected. He sought to attack western imperialism by supporting its enemies wherever he found them. He was very much a hero to the victims of western imperialism everywhere.
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Of course he made enemies. Western imperialists don’t like people like him.
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Then, running a country ain’t easy either. You’ve got a plan to make things better for everyone but there’ll be those who don’t want that even within your own country. It’s a constant struggle, made even more difficult in your going against the grain of powerful western interests. Then there’s all the tribal rivalries you’ve inherited from the last time the West was in town.
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Ultimately you get old, tired and depressed in the realisation that you can never win. It’s not an easy lesson. The internal personal conflicts are immense. You wish you could just be one of those western bureaucratic leaders who have no interest in their own people and yet seem to have it all so very easy.
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It’s a long long way from your happy childhood Bedouin tent to there.
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RIP. We’ll all be along shortly.
Herbie
Quite agree, and that distancing himself which made Craig feel so uncomfortable was definitely intended to have that effect.
Gaddafi’s face also reminds me of my grandmother, because it showed that life-struggle. It’s good to find some compassion around, because the AlQaida (so-called) supporters will be on a spree of rape, pillage and murder now. Somewhere along the line the fact that their opponents are Muslims seems to get forgotten.
NATO knows that the legacy of colonial divisions have to be wrought afresh asunder, in case the Libya ( or Iraq or Pakistan or etc ) should ever start to heal over in the prosperity that exists in today’s oil-rich world.
Really our politicians and diplomats are cockroach shite.
At least Gaddafi had red blood in his veins.
What we need to remember is the same Zionists that now cheer his death and bombed his forces were the same Zionists who captured the people working against him. Sent them and their families to him for torture.
Who participated in the torture at every level.
“he was cruel, avaricious, and a dictator and really was mentally unbalanced”
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An impressive CV, you need such to become leader of almost any nation, indeed its a prerequisite for becoming President of the United States or british Prime Minister.
Who called him a ‘good person’?
He was a megalomanaical dictator for God’s sake.
However, he opposed and frustrated western money power in a way that no other African leader has succeeded in doing. This was good for his people.
The next few years should demonstrate just HOW good this was for his people compared with what is very likely to come.
He also delivered free education, free health care, equal rights for women (Islamic fundamentalists don’t like that by the way), he paid for Libyan students’ education abroad, gave land to those willing to work it, created a brilliant aquifer water supply that turned much of the desert green, built an extensive electrical supply infrastructure (both systems now wrecked)and even gave a $50000 gift to newly-weds, as I understand it.
These are the things the sort of things on which a political leader in Africa should primarily be judged, not what he did with his penis (at least he wasn’t bumming rent boys on the Libyan equivalent of Hampstead Heath like some of our past prime Ministers), nor the vagaries of his narcissistic personality……and he did all this while under constant political attack from US and European powers who yearned to deal with a typical malleable, thieving African despot who would betray his own people in exchange for a large donation into a Swiss bank account.
Well now the Libyans will get such a leader. Let’s see how much they appreciate their ‘NATO allies’ when Gaddafi nationalists and the various ‘rebel’ factions get going and the country turns into a second Iraq.
The fall of Gaddafi is good for British and French oil companies, strategically good for western imperialism in its mission to deny China access to Africa and…..
……an utter disaster for the mass of the ordinary people of Libyan.
Hope I’m wrong….but doubt it.
By the way, please don’t address us as though we are stupid children. We all make judgements of one kind or another, but most of us try most of the time to keep offensive thoughts against persons to ourselves.
Who called Gaddafi a ‘good person’?
He was a megalomanaical dictator for God’s sake.
However, he opposed and frustrated western money power in a way that no other African leader has succeeded in doing. This was good for his people.
The next few years should demonstrate just HOW good this was for his people compared with what is very likely to come.
He also delivered free education, free health care, equal rights for women (Islamic fundamentalists don’t like that by the way), he paid for Libyan students’ education abroad, gave land to those willing to work it, created a brilliant aquifer water supply that turned much of the desert green, built an extensive electrical supply infrastructure (both systems now wrecked)and even gave a $50000 gift to newly-weds, as I understand it.
These are the things the sort of things on which a political leader in Africa should primarily be judged, not what he did with his penis (at least he wasn’t bumming rent boys on the Libyan equivalent of Hampstead Heath like some of our past prime Ministers), nor the vagaries of his narcissistic personality……and he did all this while under constant political attack from US and European powers who yearned to deal with a typical malleable, thieving African despot who would betray his own people in exchange for a large donation into a Swiss bank account.
Well now the Libyans will get such a leader. Let’s see how much they appreciate their ‘NATO allies’ when Gaddafi nationalists and the various ‘rebel’ factions get going and the country turns into a second Iraq.
The fall of Gaddafi is good for British and French oil companies, strategically good for western imperialism in its mission to deny China access to Africa and…..
……an utter disaster for the mass of the ordinary people of Libyan.
Hope I’m wrong….but doubt it.
By the way, please don’t address us as though we are stupid children. We all make judgements of one kind or another, but most of us try most of the time to keep offensive thoughts against persons to ourselves.