I may not be able to post tomorrow as I am travelling all day from Ramsgate up to St Andrews to take part in a debate, speaking against the motion that “This House Would Resort to War to Prevent a Nuclear Iran”.
The debate will be in Lower Parliament Hall in St Andrews, starting at 19.30 on 17 November. I am sorry I can’t tell you yet who else is participating, because as with all highly topical debates it has been put together as short notice. I view campaigning to prevent the terrible death toll that a war would bring as my top priority at the moment.
Ishmael
Quote
‘It has crossed my mind that Iran actively seeks a military engagement.’
Now I don’t know but I would imagine that History would tell us something.
The Persians haven’t sought conflict in what? how many hundred years.
The Israelis haven’t stopped bombing, maiming and murdering their neighbours from the day the UN arbitarily gave these zionists the western part of Palestine.
Now if I had to give someone the benefit of the doubt it wouldn’t be difficult.
Mark
Here is the Telegraph take
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/8895146/Call-for-David-Cameron-to-lead-action-against-Syria.html#disqus_thread
Once again take a look at the best rated comments.
Backs my argument.
I shall check the Guardian.
Assad, Gadaffi, Saddam, Ahmaddinejad, Milosevic
Congratulations, Stephen. You don’t understand MIC or MAD, you can’t spell or punctuate and you have serious difficulty with syntax, but you have managed to remember the list of people your masters have chosen to demonise over the last 15 years (spelling aside).
“Christian and other organisations in Syria should continue and expand pro-Assad rallies so that millions are witnessed in support of the Syrian government.”
Nothing like orgaisations telling people who they should and shouldn’t support. How about letting them make up their own mind?
Mark – I’m sorry I missed your reaction to the Syrian Navy shelling a Palestininan refugee camp in Syria – perhaps the targets should have been out at a Pro Assad rally.
“This House Would Resort to War to Inspect a Nuclear Israel”. (?)
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“The Persians haven’t sought conflict in what?”
I think since the 1770s?
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Thanks for the link Daisy, going off to look now.
Daisy
I hope you are right in that it is the right and not the left who believe measures should be taken to deal with tyrants wherever they are. There is a legitimate debate to be had within the legitimate left as to what those measures should be and when they should be applied – if you bothered to read my first post you will see that in the case of Iran I most certainly want to look into other alternatives than war first – although some here seem to interpret any attack on Armourdinnerjacket as a declaration of war.
Similarly on the right there are a variety of positions – of which the most common is none of my business/best to let sleeping dogs lie/interfere if we only have to tendency, which is probably the dominant group, and it certainly is bigger than the imperialist lets take over the world tendency.
Of course this leaves the SWP/Stop the War/George Galloway/multifarious trots grouping which claims to be on the left but does have the rather unfortunate habit of being unable and/or unwilling to recognise the failings of their heroes with whom they are now fellow travellers. I am quite happy to share your assessment that they are creatures of the right rather than the left. Does that make them neo neo cons??
Wrong again Stephen.
Actually the Neo cons have a leftist pedigree. Why they blend in so well with the neo libs.
Because of the Werrity/Fox/Gould scandal, the opportunity for Fox to make hay with the IAEA report on Iran — thereby escalating the pro-war rhetoric — was lost. But, like every bully, these neocon fuckers will be back for another stab at starting World War 3. Good luck, Craig.
The gathering storm heads for Syria. Another ‘humanitarian intervention’ being planned?
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USUKIsNATO shill King Hussein says Cameron should take action.
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Syria crisis: Arab call to work with the west for diplomatic solution
Britain and France preferred partners in a Libya-style ‘contact group’ to co-ordinate policy, but no question of military action
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Ian Black, Middle East editor The Guardian, Thursday 17 November 2011 1.25 GMT
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David Cameron and King Abdullah of Jordan outside No 10 Downing Street: it has emerged that King Abudllah raised the idea of a ‘contact group’ with Cameron during their talks.
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Britain is being urged to help set up an international “contact group” to co-ordinate western and Arab policy towards the crisis in Syria, where President Bashar al-Assad is defying mounting outrage over the violent suppression of mass unrest.
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It has emerged that King Abdullah of Jordan raised the idea, borrowed from the recent Libyan uprising, in talks with David Cameron on Tuesday.
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Those discussions are just part of the feverish diplomatic activity focused on the escalating situation this week.
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Wednesday saw more attacks orchestrated by the regime on Arab embassies in Damascus, and the most daring armed opposition raid yet, on a key security facility near the capital.
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Senior Arab diplomatic sources said there was an urgent need for closer co-ordination following Syria’s suspension from the Arab League, and attempts to unite disparate anti-Assad groups.
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France recalled its ambassador in protest at the embassy attacks. The Foreign Office said Britain’s envoy, Simon Collis, would stay “at present”, though the situation would be kept under review.
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Responsibility for the opposition raid, at Harasta on the road to Beirut, was claimed by the Free Syrian Army, part of an internal opposition which had remained largely peaceful despite 3,500 dead since March.
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On Tuesday, the FSA, thought mainly to consist of defectors from the army, was reported to have carried out an ambush in Deraa that left 34 soldiers dead – another sign of the militarisation of the uprising.
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Arab divisions, the prominent role of Turkey, and neighbouring Israel’s close interest in Syria all require a western-led forum that could be modelled on the Libyan contact group, the Arab diplomatic sources said. But there is still no question of Arab or western military intervention.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/16/syria-crisis-arab-diplomatic-solution
Stephen is not here to sway us, he is here to divert the thoughts of those who just come on here and try and make sense of these outrageous manipulations and propaganda that we are highlighting.
He is supposed to be the moderate amongst us, be seen as questioning these ‘outrageous’ plans Craig has sleuthed.
Should anybody suggest to marry him off to Larry of St. Loony, I will second it and be his bridesmaid, we can all sing havanagila and wish him everything he would wish us.
I have talked to my MP today, he popped off the escalator in John Lewis this afternoon, what a chance to miss. Had some words about Craigs sleuthing and confirmed that there are certain MP’s who are getting cold feet over BICOMs ‘ueber alles’ strategy as well as over Israels unaccountable nuclear arsenal.
We briefly talked about Netanyahu and he is very worried about the continued building process in East jerusalem and the ignorance shown by the Israeli Government.
I asked him whether he is a CFI and he said yes. heraiong how he said it I got a sense of inevitability over this. I told him that this issue was my beef with young Chloe Smith MP. Visiting a non aligned country before she has visited our NATO/EU partners without much mentioning it to her electorate was not the first thing I expect from a young MP. He said that he was invited and declined their invitation to go to Israel.
I reiterated my last two emails to him, and told him what Craigs discovered in what little time I had, we talked for some 5 minutes covering the fact that nuclear Pakistan and India have never lobbed nukes at each other despite having exchanged fire in one way or other for over thirty years. He agreed, so we talked about Irans apparent threat and the surrounding threats, clandestine subs in the persian Gulf, the sixth fleet ankered in Bahrain, the goading of Iran with violence towards Shia’s, Russian forces to the north and bases in western Afghanistan, all amounting to a big fat fait a compli for any defense minister to act upon, he nodded and said that he is planning to join the IAEA in a trip to Iran next year if they let him. In asking him to keep me updated please, we parted.
Could have talked for longer, but did not want to piss the man off, he was shopping.
Ingo
You are right that I am not trying to sway you – I fear that you are well beyond that. As for wanting to challenge and point out other positions to the dominant tendency here so that those with more open minds might wish to adopt a more moderate position: well guilty as charged. I also personally enjoy debating views and seeing alternative perspectives which occaisonally (but all too rarely) raise their heads here. As for seeking to divert – I think you will find that I have a rather better record of staying on topic and responding to direct questions than most others. I perhaps should remind you as to the topic of this post – and how yet again you appear to have fallen prey to Murray’s law and turned the whole thread into a discussion of Israel’s failings. Cue insinuations that I am Mossad, GIYUS, hasbara and a host of other things which I haven’t a clue what they stand for or mean (havangilia?).
Just a thought Craig – why not start a permenent thread about Israel and the fellow members of it axis of evil, where all such general comments can be posted. Leaving the other threads open for matters more relevant to the issue in question??
Sounds like an interesting and entertaining evening.
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http://www.iranheritage.org/Yalda/default.htm
In any language this is a map of military bases surrounding Iran
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.muxbir.com/wp-content/uploads/cache/1_NpAdvHover.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.muxbir.com/2010/05/page/23/&usg=__ctH83CJkf5Q7gkUOTukMguc1A-o=&h=360&w=600&sz=36&hl=en&start=16&sig2=6ukl-N36UHvIVUEGHYKS7w&zoom=1&tbnid=KtysA3aHul1LBM:&tbnh=91&tbnw=151&ei=43zFTtSeL8q28QOX7KSYCw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dus%2Bmilitary%2Bbases%2Baround%2Biran%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26imgrefurl%3Dhttp://craigconsidine.wordpress.com/category/us-v-iran/%26imgurl%3Dhttp://craigconsidine.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/iran-is-surronded-by-us-military-basis1.jpg%26w%3D320%26h%3D280%26sig%3D100017875306921467729%26ndsp%3D20%26biw%3D1049%26bih%3D769%26tbs%3Dsimg:CAQSEgmiuH_1EnJEQICFQl-0eOlisDg%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=500&vpy=458&dur=134&hovh=174&hovw=290&tx=166&ty=100&sig=100017875306921467729&page=1&ved=1t:429,r:15,s:0
Ingo – congratulations! You can’t beat talking to people face to face (as the Herzliya mob well know), and I’m glad your MP takes the views of his constituents seriously enough to listen to them. Is that Freeman, by any chance? I suspect not…
Keep an eye open for B52’s, btw. The Yanks have just got some cool new bunker busters which can be targeted precisely only to destroy underground machinery without killing anybody. Or so they will no doubt be telling us soon.
Stephen, if you don’t know what hasbara means, you lack the basic knowledge to comment on MidEastern affairs at all. 0/10. Fail.
Stephen, That’s an excellent idea! Then we can see very clearly, at a glance, why people are slightly peeved by lots of dead civilians and the reasons we’re all fed why that had, and has, to happen.
Other topics, such as the death spasms of global capitalism, and the gradual transition to some form of authoritarian Government, we can certainly leave to other threads. There is no connection between the three topics.
Komodo
I understand what hasbara and GIYUS means – it was the other things that I don’t know – probably because I don’t belong to any Israeli or Jewish organisations and don’t speak Yiddish.
Mike
Yawn – sounds like the needle has got stuck again – do you ever get asked to change the subject in your personal life?
“I don’t belong to any Israeli or Jewish organisations”
Then you’ll never be filthy rich and unknown to the public, will you?
“A rabbi??? That’s no job for a Jewish boy”
“Cue insinuations that I am Mossad, GIYUS, hasbara and a host of other things which I haven’t a clue what they stand for or mean” – Stephen
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“I understand what hasbara and GIYUS means – it was the other things that I don’t know – probably because I don’t belong to any Israeli or Jewish organisations and don’t speak Yiddish.”
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Ah, so you’ve never heard of the Mossad then. Pull the other one, Stephen. You’re not kidding anyone with your sarcasm one minute and your protestations of innocence the next. Pfffft!
Haha Stephen! You are a very naughty contrarian. But it’s good to have someone to push against: it helps bring one’s beliefs into sharper focus. Carry on with the gainsaying, by all means.
How did it go, the Craigster?
Mike
Nothing wrong with being a contrarian – as well as putting beliefs into focus they also puncture lies and distortions.
Here’s a North Korean minister speaking at the UN in 2009, explaining why NK has nukes:
“The mission of our nuclear weapon is to deter a war. We will only possess
nuclear deterrent to such an extent as to deter military attack and its threat
against our country.
The deterrence will be directly proportional to the threat on the Korean
Peninsula, as in Europe and elsewhere.”
http://www.un.org/en/ga/64/generaldebate/pdf/KP_en.pdf
Contrarians can certainly offer alternative viewpoints, Stephen, if that’s what you mean. I have many strongly held beliefs, but I can’t say with 100 per cent certainty that they are all true. They are only my opinions.
When you say “puncturing lies”, presumably you do so with the “truth”. Unlike you, I can’t be so confident that my opinions are the “truth.” Well done on reaching that happy place.
We are indeed lucky to have Stephen among us, correcting our lies and distortions, rather than propagating them on some neocon forum. Thank you for condescending to spend time with us, Stephen.
Now can we get back to the vexed question of Iran’s evil weapons programme? Without mentioning poor little nuclear Israel? Thank you.
Komodo! You’re distorting the picture again! It simply isn’t like that. Iran have history of invading their neighbours and starting wars, er, don’t they? We can’t let the frothing Borg-like legions get their hands on nukes. They’ll blow up the world, I tell thee!!!!!!
Oh do us a favour with this playschool fearmongering…
hey Daisy. You sound a little like a financial advisor. The past is not an indication of future performance. netanyahoo is a douchbag. it does not have to be nuclear. You see iran has something, while all the boys run around trying to stop it.. The Zionists are coming. That shows how little they know. If some asshole wants to park an air compressor across from the Whitehouse, behind the hedge …I don’t give a hoot. Who cares whether we did it, or they did it? While the sheep are happy with BS those criminals carry on. Because if you open your gob they send the boys round to shoot you. The sheep have no power and can do nothing, but bleat
Thanks Komodo, it is good to talk, even if its in the middle of Johnh Lewis. I think he would have liked to get away, but my ‘in’ was just too good, I praised him for scrutinising Gus’mcDonnell and his tax sidekick, can’t remember his name, Harness or something, it was excellent. Akin toi a translation service from gobbledigook to normal English, Richard Bacon put them on the spot, whether this will make Vodafone pay their 6 billion tax debta or whether it will discourage Goldmann Sachs for diverting ten million as ‘bonuses’ to emplyees, but, to tax free havens, is another question alltogether.
I hope Craig enjoyed his circus appearance, having the chance to stick your head into the mouth of a tiger, when you are not the dompteur per se, and get away with it, students clapping I presume, then you have achieved something. I hope that Craigs fabric has withstood the onslaught of those speaking/indoctrinating the choosen students in neocon/zionist fables, a constant drip drip amplification.
Mike, as long as we question what we hear, good or bad, comfortable or abject horror, nobody can accuse us here of being partial. We are working with Craig, not for him, because we choose to, sense and principles will eventually win over greed and hegemony.
Persia is an ancient civilisation and todays drive for more modernity and openess will eventually win over the dry and irrelevant religious consideration that strangle an open politi, it is a mere matter of time, no need to find falsehood and excuses to spread more chaos into another ancient society. It will change because those who want a future for their children radiate sense and principles, and a very important factor underlies their positive actions. ‘Good people will always meet again.’ (ingo 1974)
http://wlcentral.org/node/2349
Letter to Obomber and Gillard
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We accuse….. over and over/