UPDATE In response to the outraged, my position is simple. The Iraq War killed hundreds of thousands and maimed millions. Dead or wounded included over a million children. Those who planned the Iraq war, including those who used media positions to propagandise for it, have lost entitlement to the signs of society’s respect.
The world will undoubtedly be a duller place without Christopher Hitchens. Oh, and a better one too.
British journalism is full of people of the same generationwho have lurched from the Trotskyist far left to a crazed neo-con agenda with no intervening period of sanity. I suspect the available riches for zionist propagandists are a major factor. Hitchens, Aaronovitch, Phillips, Cohen. You can probably think of others. A strange and extremely unpleasant manifestation of intellectual prostitution.
Actually that should – it is quite easy to see with a pair of binoculars whether someone looks happy. Sort of a “Hercules the bear was spotted flying over Scotland” error!!
Give up advertising your undertakers business Babs, a link would have been sufficient.
Why don’t you go join him in the after life? Oh we are not that lucky; you are a humanist (my foot, more like a misanthropist), fawning over the war enabler fuckwit C. Hitechens.
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PS do you think you are the only one who knows how to surf, cutting and pasting shite all over the place?
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PPS anyone else notice, any time the ziofuckwits get beat comprehensively, suddenly Babs appears and starts the operation cut and paste fawning over the shitbags CH?
‘I always think it’s a sign of victory when they move on to the ad hominem.’
Hitchens
“Whilst pissed everyone sees more than one, in fact depending on the alcohol proof seeing itself becomes a whole new ball game”
next drunkard to Hitchens in the gutter.
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Victory in which war he was enabling, Babs?
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Your contribution has been cut and paste and even when it came to retort you cut and pasted that too? Babs/stephen/angrysob/nuid which are you?
@Angrysoba, your 911 myth buster site is quite funny; it seriously puts out that being happy & high-fiving is because “people react to situations in different ways” & “That kind of black humour to break tension in a group isn’t at all unusual” !! So the tons of footage we have of hundreds of people looking in shocked, horrid disbelieve, many openly crying, must be very, very unusual & freaky, because not one face in all these hundreds is similing & laughing !!
At least this Site gives links to the declassified, but very redacted police reports; I don’t really have the time at present to examine these, but just skimming not even half of the first document, tells us that the police were actively looking to find a video camera, hardly action based on a dopey witness confusing a photo camera with a video camera; photos recovered do show “visible happy” people; at leastmore than one “removal van” proweling around; no tools associated with the removal business being found; most, if not all of the people associated with this removal business were Israeli; that accoring to an ex-employee there was a lot of anti-american sentiment present with the other employees. Goodness me, enough to chew on already !
@Barbara, you seem to have a great sense of humour equating “Humanist” with that narcissistic misanthrope, followed by the killer line of said misanthrope who specialised in the most venomous ad hominem attacks, complaining about ad hominem attacks ! Ho ! Ho ! Ho !
Here is something else to tickle your funny bone;
http://exiledonline.com/who-can-forget-christopher-hitchens-fake-waterboarding-stunt/
In total agreement with Craig Murray. Alcoholics,and I’ve had the misfortune to have had close familial relationships with two,tend to be bombastic belligerents with deeply unnerving mood swings.What is most striking in Hitchen’s case is his apparent ignorance or refusal to acknowledge the history of the U.K.’s involvement in Iraq. We bombed it throughout the twenties ,thities,fourties and fifties.We were finally forced out in 58 or 59 but ten years later we organised a coup which brought the Baath Party and Saadam to power,he was the creature of the West and it was the Americans who encouraged his war against Iran and supplied the gas used against the Kurds.This obscene war was fought,as usual, for money. My name for it is Caponeomics.How such apparently sane men as Richard Dawkins can deliver tributes to such a one is a mystery.I truly hope he died as painful a death as the children of Fallujah. And why will no-one mention the War Crimes Tribunal in Kuala Lumpur?
Dudes, with those high-fiving Israelis, you don’t get it. In Zio Zio Land, if it wasn’t witnessed by eLie Weasel, it never happened!
I see Stephen has returned back to the Cess-Pit that he came from, with a few snipes at Craig & us on this Board !;
“The comments on Murray’s blog also contain a number of attacks on Vaclav Havel – but nothing as yet on Kim il Jong – they must still be in deep mourning.”
http://hurryupharry.org/2011/12/18/translation/#comments
“@Stephen, it’s amusing that you can’t realise that with every post you lose even more & more of the very little creditibity then you had before; not only do you make totally vacuous assertions, and sly misrephetations, meaningless comparisons, false straw men, etc, but all delivered with the grace of a football hooligan at a chess match, mostly loud booing, and ocassionally clapping loudly for anybody who you think may have written something vaguely supporting your points of view; your childish “challenges” and requests for proof of qoutations is indicative of your inability to engage in rational discourse.
Once more against my better judgement, and actually because I feel sorry for you (always been too kind hearted for my own good!), I’m going to indulge you once again.”
This what is called smoke and bluster, mixed up with the usual patronising put downs – a not dissimilar debating style from your hero George.
Sop lets get to the substance. Well first of all re Norm Coleman, I suspect that he was going after rather bigger fish with Galloway like how the proceeds from the UN Oil programme were going to fund George’s political activities (not charitable as we note since the Marriam Appeal wa smost definitely not a charity) – which does raise the little side question as to why George didn’t declare such donations to fund his political activities to the Electoral Commission – but that is by the by.
Clearly you haven’t been able to find amything in Hansard from when George became an MP in June 1986 to the 1st Gulf War showing that our George expressed any opposition whatsoever to Saddam in Parliament (you don’t have to wade through Hansard to check this as their is a nice little search engine which our 2nd class Oxford commenter clearly failed to appreciate. The only related quote I could find from George was on 30 June 1988 when he complained about the Isrealis bombing the nuclear reactor in Baghdad in 1981 (finishing the job the Iranians couldn’t manage – but that is hardly showing opposition to Saddam is it? There are of course plenty of other statements by MPs attacking Saddam throughout the period in question on such matters as gassing his opponents, human rights abuses, Farzad Bazoft who Saddam murdered etc form a wide range of MPs including Teddy Taylor, Dennis Healey, Ann Clwyd (the leader by some distance), Harry Cohen, Gerald Cohen, Frank Field, Jeremy Corbyn, Pat Wall, Teddy Taylor, Dafydd Wigley, Gwyneeth Dunnwoody, Pat Wall, No Mowlam, Chris Mullin and even on one occaison Tony Benn. But not a dickby bird from gorgeous George.
So what is the conclsion from this – the only possible one is that your statement that Galloway was the sole voice in Parliament against Saddam before the Ist Gulf War is absolutely without any substance whatsoever – and raises the subsidiary question as to what George was really doing about Iraq after he was elected to Parliament.
And as an interesting aside, perhaps we should have a little look at you Tam Dayell quotation – which is in fact a mis quotation because you have omitted the word “mid” before 1980s – now leaving aside the fact that Tam may have got a little muddled on dates given that George didn’t become an MP until June 1887 – it doesn’t really support your argument since we are talking about the late 1980s when George was an MP. Now I wonder why the misleading misquotation occurred?
On the cluster bomb quotes – I suspect that you may be right about it being Adam Shatz’s verbal quote since it doesn’t feature anywhere in Hitchen’s writings, and as I said it doesn’t sound like Hitchen’s voice so it may well have been garbled and quoted out of context. It was also refreshing to see you relying on the Kissinger/Nixon of plausible deniability – what I dont think you realise is that Hitchens left the Nation shortly after that article, and he was probably following the older doctrine of loyalty to his employer and not washing its dirty linen in public.
Anyway unless you have anything constructive to add – I think I have had enough of this pantomine of a blog, which I don’t think has much chance of moving the world forward one bit, and I’m now leaving of my own volition. Many thanks to small number with open minds who have debated in the proper spirit of the word, and possibly despite appearances to contrary have inforemed and changed my minds on many things. And for all the others thanks for the occasional amusement and for helping me to avoid low blood pressure. Seasons greetings to you all – and just remember the slippery slope starts when you allow the ends to justify the means.
Boniface Goncour, said:”Dudes, with those high-fiving Israelis, you don’t get it. In Zio Zio Land, if it wasn’t witnessed by eLie Weasel, it never happened!”
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Very true, history starts when of one of the sacred ones has declared its start. Sort of like a taximeter, if none of the sacred ones is there to declare its start, then history does not happen. Also in Zio Zio land, ziofuckwits are always grieving after bombing the crap out of the Palestinians, ziofucktards high five, and laugh and joke, just like those grieving at the sight of the WTC on fire and smoke and tumbling down.
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Also not happened was the phone call in Dubai/Kuwait from PLO taking responsibility for the WTC events. Obviously there too, a bunch of grief stricken ziofuckwits had thought best to get the enemy/Palestinians implicated while the WTC fires were still burning.
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Macky,
Probably stephen also lies in bed calling us all, for he hath got beat so fucking badly here, he has to resort to get the bile and venom out of his system somewhere. Therefore cutting and pasting away in another blog, its a ziofuckwit thing!
Barbara seems to have a great sense of humour equating “Humanist” with that narcissistic misanthrope, followed by the killer line of said misanthrope, who specialised in the most venomous ad hominem attacks, complaining about ad hominem attacks ! Ho ! Ho ! Ho !
Here’s something else to remind us what a complete hypocrite he was;
‘Saddam Hussain — who has sprung from being an underground revolutionary gunman to perhaps the first visionary Arab statesman since Nasser.’
http://www.newstatesman.com/society/2007/07/iraq-arab-saddam-iran-hitchens
As stated on Medialens; “George Galloway must be wondering why interviewers never reminded Hitchens of this”
@Stephen
“Anyway unless you have anything constructive to add..”
Yes, try to learn the magic of logic, and rational thought, you’ll find that this will make the World a less confusing & frustrating place; start here & try to see if you can see where this let you down just in one aspect of our little discussion: you made a comment decrying the apparent silence of those whose oppose Western wars, iro abusive/totalitarian regimes, and you presented Galloway as your best example; only problem, for you, is that you couldn’t have picked a worse example for your false argument. I pointed out that the reason you believe in this apparent silence, is because the MSM not only spoon-feeds you with official propaganda, but suppresses voices, thus creating this apparent silence, otherwise why would you not know that Galloway has a very long & public track record of opposing the Saddam Regime, and instead believe that he supported him, and even took his money ? I informed you that at a time when our Government & Arms Dealers were doing business with Saddam, Galloway was actually campaigning against him; Instead of properly looking into this, you immediately get hung up on me saying that at this time he was a lone voice in Parliament voicing opposition, seizing on the unimportant pedantic fact that should of stated “virtually a lone voice” , as if , illogically, this somehow negates the point that he was voicing opposition; further, just because you couldn’t find Hansard records prior to the first attack on Iraq, you assumed this also negates Galloway’s opposition ! The Hansard records actually do exists, I know because some years ago I spent several hours wrestling with the very un-user friendly search facility, and found such records, (which were the ones that I presented that to that shameless clown Ollie Kamm). However you didn’t need these to realise that there are other factors that rationally do confirm Galloway’s early opposition to Saddam’s Regime, and I presented some of these you, ie his handing over Hansard records to Coleman that shown this track record of opposition going back to least early 1990, his references to helping fund an Iraqi Human Rights organisation back in 1979, and Tam Dalyell recollection of Galloway being a “the only voice” he remembers campaigning against Saddam. Yet even after this, you again irrationally insist in dismissing despite me actually spelling out for you that if any of this was not true, it would have been long exposed by his very determined & inventive enemies. Stephen, you have to come to terms that your pre-conceived prejudices, and incomplete knowledge, are causing you to reason & think irrationally.
“and I’m now leaving of my own volition”,
Oh well, cheerio then; but tell me was it something I said, as I’m getting a worried as I think I was the last to address Ken (the guy who had a crush on Mary), before he disappeared !
“the ends to justify the means”, funny you end on that, as that is really the motto & creed of pro-war humanitarian “bombing Decent Left”, of which you & your pals at HP certainly belong to.
Angrysoba is right about the dancing Israelis, of course. He’s informed, reasonable and sane. Those spouting the conspiracy nonsense are none of the above and no arguments will change them. Calling them insane just encourages them and confirms their bigoted world view. They have a right to their view and a right to speak but they do a disservice to those who genuinely seek to confront government wrongdoing – especially over the aftermath of 9-11 and the Iraq war.
And to get back to Hitch. I also thought he was a great writer, articulate speaker, independent thinker etc. But then what’s the point of that if he still manages to get it wrong on major issues and be an arse? Great thinker but unfortunately unpleasant and on the wrong side of history? What’s the point of thinking, then? Quite depressing, really…
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And peoples’ reactions to his death as well. It’s just intellectual tribalism. To those who are strong atheists, he was a hero despite his wrong views on Iraq. To those who feel strongly about Iraq, he was despicable despite his rather clear-headed views on religion. To strong Christians, etc etc. What’s so intellectual about liking those similar to oneself and hurling abuse at those who are different? Again, quite depressing, really…
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And as for speaking ill of the dead, what complete bollocks that is. Hitch would not have held back.
David H, two excellent comments. I second your opinions of Hitchens and of my sanity.
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I agree that there’s no need to hold back on criticism of Hitchens and to take offence at people who hated his Iraq War stance is more than a little rich given Hitchens’ own gleeful grave-pissing and his expressing sorrow that he wouldn’t get to write the obituaries for Kissinger and the Pope.
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I also agree that he was a hugely entertaining speaker and I’ll still miss him whatever his faults were.
“Angrysoba is right about the dancing Israelis, of course. He’s informed,reasonable and sane.”
Not another 9/11 Iswaili nutjob. In Zio Zio land, of course, evidence isn’t evidence, facts aren’t facts, lies aren’t lies, the laws of physics aren’t laws, and a cigarette lighter
will vaporize Mount Everest. Welcome to Ground Zio!
“Stephen, you have to come to terms that your pre-conceived prejudices, and incomplete knowledge, are causing you to reason & think irrationally.”
To an Iswaili that is a compliment. One squirt from the aerosol of truth sends them scuttling off to Bloomingdale’s for clean panties.
Macky:
At least this Site gives links to the declassified, but very redacted police reports; I don’t really have the time at present to examine these, but just skimming not even half of the first document, tells us that the police were actively looking to find a video camera, hardly action based on a dopey witness confusing a photo camera with a video camera; photos recovered do show “visible happy” people; at leastmore than one “removal van” proweling around; no tools associated with the removal business being found; most, if not all of the people associated with this removal business were Israeli; that accoring to an ex-employee there was a lot of anti-american sentiment present with the other employees. Goodness me, enough to chew on already !
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A witness says that she saw some guys filming the Twin Towers after the impacts. She based this on the idea that they were using a small, handheld video. On the other hand, YOU have stated that they were using “professional items” that “take time to set up”. You haven’t presented any evidence for these claims and your whole “foreknowledge” claim seems to rest on the idea that they may have set up the video recorders in advance and they were using “professional items”.
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Apparently you are also suspicious of the fact that the removal company had more than one van and that these vans were seen driving around in the vicinity of the removals firm. (?)
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And “there was a lot of anti-american sentiment present”. …oh, gosh!
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Earlier Macky said, Anyhow re the Dancing Israelis, I think we can take it that the translations are correct, for many reasons, but especially that Anti-Truthers Sites that set out to dispel “conspiracy claims”, have not tried to discredit this on phoney translation grounds. Instead they come up with a) the cameras were not set-up prior, so they were filming the event happening in front of them just like thousands of others, or b) they were indeed Israeli Agents on a specific other mission, and did set-up cameras to film THAT other mission, which is the “event” referred to, and just happened to be a prefect place to also film the Twins Towers being attacked ! Both of these explanation are seriously far fetched for many reasons, not least being that the cameras were professional items which take time to set-up, and that either of these explanations account for the joyous celebrations of these people as they watched the tragedy in unfold in front of their eyes
Boniface Goncourt – Ha Ha. You’ve said quite enough on this topic for me to make a few judgements on you. Not visa versa. The fact that you are willing to call me a “9/11 Iswaili nutjob. In Zio Zio land…”, based on my few sentences above, shows all we need to know about your concepts of evidence and reasoning.
Hilarious Macky re ‘Stephen’. I am sure he had said previously that he was going but like that rubber ball, keeps on bouncing back. Wonder what the name of the next one will be. I am just surprised that some here conversed with him when his provenance was so obvious.
Ahem! Still waiting for an answer from Angrysoba.
@Mary re “I am just surprised that some here conversed with him when his provenance was so obvious.”
Yes, I know but I just can’t stop myself from being just too damned kind hearted !
It’s too bad he is not around so he can verify if the following quote is really from “The Hitch”;
‘Saddam Hussain — who has sprung from being an underground revolutionary gunman to perhaps the first visionary Arab statesman since Nasser.’
http://www.newstatesman.com/society/2007/07/iraq-arab-saddam-iran-hitchens
As they said on Medialens; “George Galloway must be wondering why interviewers never reminded Hitchens of this”
“Ahem! Still waiting for an answer from Angrysoba.”
I know the feeling; very good on moving on by throwing up new questions himself, but conveniently leaving unconvenient questions behind unanswered. Still awaiting his reponse about the I/P points Hitchens made in the clip he provided, and still awaiting a response on an older Thread.
“Those spouting the conspiracy nonsense are none of the above and no arguments will change them.”
I’m actually an Agonist on 9/11, and although I keep an opened mine, I really don’t like my intelligence insulted by absurdities over manifest problems & inconsistencies surrounding the official narative.
Njegos: “Ahem! Still waiting for an answer from Angrysoba.
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What answer are you looking for?
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Mary: “I am just surprised that some here conversed with him when his provenance was so obvious.”
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I don’t even understand what Mary is on about. I have a feeling that Mary is an anti-Semite. Certainly George Orwell would have considered her so. I can find an article in which her slurs are given as examples of “anti-semitism” according to him.
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Anyway, Macky, you still have to give evidence that the Israelis had set up video cameras, IN ADVANCE, of the attacks and were behaving as they did because of such things. Of course, you cannot and have not done that.
By the way, for all you fantasy dissedents, look at what I do say when I think someone is trying to abuse the term “anti-Semitism”. I will not stand for it. I will not be cowed or pushed around by stupid idiots who have no idea what the term means. If anyone ever accuses me of the same I shall smack them hard in the face.
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I have already been clear in this Harry’s Place comments box what I will stand for and what I shall not.
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http://hurryupharry.org/2011/12/18/mps-challenge-antisemitism-in-the-uk/
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@Angry, I will certainly respond iro camera question, but to do it justice I need to clear some time, which is what I guess you must have/are doing all this time, clearing time to find time in order to properly address outstanding issues.
And in memory of Stephen;
http://blogs.dailyrecord.co.uk/georgegalloway/2011/12/lets-just-hope-god-is-merciful-chris.html
Oh, and also, you do know that those “Dancing Israelis” have tried to sue the US government or the arresting officers for physical abuse etc…
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I think that if they were genuinely averse to opening up their role in 9/11 they would have done nothing at all.
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Me, if I were a New York Police Department cop who arrested these guys and found pictures of them celebrating the deaths of thousands of New Yorkers then I would have taken them into a basement and called the Boys in the NYPD choir to come down and give them a rendition of “Galway Bay”. I would have allowed them to be savaged this way and that and still renewed my subscription to Amnesty International. I hate official torture but even you must know that sometimes you will turn a blind eye.
And yet, when you do that you have to realize that when you cross that Rubicon then you no longer stand for the things that we know Craig Murray stood for. Then, you have to realize that if there are certain people that you hate so much then it is perfectly acceptable to torture them and do the most disgraceful things upon them because you KNOW somehow that they are evil and not deserving of the human rights you have campaigned for your whole life.
…then you would not be a person who hates torture on principle. Then you would know that you only hate torture when done to those you sympathise with. In other words you would not be principled at all.