UPDATE In response to the outraged, my position is simple. The Iraq War killed hundreds of thousands and maimed millions. Dead or wounded included over a million children. Those who planned the Iraq war, including those who used media positions to propagandise for it, have lost entitlement to the signs of society’s respect.
The world will undoubtedly be a duller place without Christopher Hitchens. Oh, and a better one too.
British journalism is full of people of the same generationwho have lurched from the Trotskyist far left to a crazed neo-con agenda with no intervening period of sanity. I suspect the available riches for zionist propagandists are a major factor. Hitchens, Aaronovitch, Phillips, Cohen. You can probably think of others. A strange and extremely unpleasant manifestation of intellectual prostitution.
@Angrysoba, just for the record do you agree with the points that Hitchens is making in the clip you’ve posted ?
Karel,
FYI, Angrysoba has been around here for a long time, and Craig has made him welcome. While he often disagrees with people’s ‘worldview’ here, he is on the whole good humoured and debatable. (Except for last Christmas when he seemed to have a wee bit too much to drink …)
I advise against making assumptions.
Thanks, Nuid. On which note, I wish everyone a peaceful Christmas and a Happy New Year, when it comes!
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Incidentally, Stephen has been psoting here for quite a while too, on and off and he’s generally also been affable and rational, even if one disagrees with some of his views; but that is one of the main points of having a working blog, no? It would be informative (for the posts), but boring, to have an echo-chamber. It would be informative (for the posts), but boring, to have an echo-chamber.
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See…?
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Yes, on a seasonally ‘panto Dame’ note, one can state categorically that Stephen is most definitely NOT angrysoba’s wife! Oh no he’s not…!
I see the keyboard defence brigade for the keyboard defence brigade are fighting a rearguard action there. Everybody is entitled to their opinion so long as it is what we say principles applied, on goes the fucking charade.
Suhayl Saadi: Yes, on a seasonally ‘panto Dame’ note, one can state categorically that Stephen is most definitely NOT angrysoba’s wife! Oh no he’s not…!
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Not that I know of. It would be an awfully funny name for a lady to have as her pseudonym on a blog.
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It would be informative (for the posts), but boring, to have an echo-chamber. It would be informative (for the posts), but boring, to have an echo-chamber.
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I stay around as a public service. I’m so selfless. But, speaking of boring…
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Fedup: I see the keyboard defence brigade for the keyboard defence brigade are fighting a rearguard action there.
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A wave of yawns ripples through the blogosphere.
Suhayl, best wishes to you for the season of peace and goodwill. As for panto dames . . . They’re behind you. Oh no they’re not!
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While I’m happy to hear other points of view it would be good to hear arguments that are backed up by evidence, not just bland rhetoric – with the emphasis on bland. The two commentators you mentioned are only engaged by me because I’m trying to find out if there is intelligent life on the other side of the wall. Neither of them has convinced me. The arguments are anti-arguments, like I cannot compare Blair with Pol Pot, Hitler and Stalin because in this country you don’t get a knock on the door in the middle of the night. At least that’s the kind of argument. But people in this country, mostly Muslims, do get a knock on the door. One has been held in prison for more than seven years without being charged. This kind of anti-argument would be like me saying Tony Blair is no Mahatma Gandhi therefore he must be like Stalin, Pol Pot or Hitler, which I did not say, but I did refer to the lying, cheating, thieving, murdering Tony Blair, all adjectives of which I can back up with historical evidence. I found it unbelievable that Blair in his debate with Hitchins could separate himself from the other monsters of history who also thought themselves saviours.
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I have never written grafitti on a toilet wall, or any wall, but I was amused one Yuletide to find a message on one wall: “A Merry Christmas to all our readers and writers!” So I wish that to you all, including Stephen and Angrysoba, and I hope the Hanukkah brings them the gift that Solomon asked for and received from God.
Macky: @Angrysoba, just for the record do you agree with the points that Hitchens is making in the clip you’ve posted ?
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Partly. I am going to finish up a post to you on the other thread which hopefully will clarify things.
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But, just as a further point, I think that Hitchens did upset a few of the hardcore right with this Slate article which is pretty strong even by Hitchens’ standards:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2010/11/israels_shabbos_goy.html
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In light of what is quite demonstrable about Hitchens’ stance on Israel/Palestine I can only imagine that the article Mary posted from the Anti-War site was written by either a liar or someone who over-estimated the clarity of their question. One thing I agree with Hitchens on is the way that there were far too many people uttering “anti-war” statements one minute and then in the next expressing support for Hamas, Hizbollah, the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran or else demanding that criticism of them be attenuated or evened-out with criticism of Israel. This is somewhat reminiscent of George Orwell’s Notes on Nationalism of which there is a good quote which I’ll try and find in a minute.
John Goss: So I wish that to you all, including Stephen and Angrysoba, and I hope the Hanukkah brings them the gift that Solomon asked for and received from God.
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Errrr… thanks. And Happy Chanukah to you too. By the way, that reminds me of a Hitchens article about this little festival. As you may be surprised to learn, Hitchens wasn’t a fan. According to him, “The holiday celebrates the triumph of tribal Jewish backwardness”. Oh dear! Its title is “Bah, Hannuka!”
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http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2007/12/bah_hanukkah.html
Comical if it wasn’t so tragic. Remember Baghdad and the wads of dollars that went walkies by the million under the Bremer version of a transitional government?
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Libya militias and army clash over control of runways after UN decides to fly newly printed currency
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Tripoli airport is currently held by the militia from Zintan, a mountain town 90 miles to the south, who captured it on the way to liberating Tripoli in August. But the Libyan national army, controlled by Gaddafi-era generals, is determined to take control, in what is shaping up to be a defining power struggle. Meanwhile, amid the growing tension the ruling National Transitional Council has become a target for mass protests across the country and the object of deep suspicion outside its Benghazi power base.
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Last weekend the army tried to storm the airport and was stopped in a battle at the main airport checkpoint, which left two militiamen wounded and flights suspended as tracer fire arced over the runways. The army tried again midweek, summoning reinforcements from eastern Libya, only for the column to be stopped 200 miles west by units from Misrata, which are allied with Zintan.
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More fighting is expected after unidentified gunmen shot and wounded a son of army commander General Khalifa Hifter in a battle outside Tripoli’s biggest bank, then kidnapped another on Friday.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/17/libya-tripoli-airport-assets-un
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PS Some people here need more training in joining up the dots and making the connections.
Angrysoba, from what I’ve read and seen recently Hitchins wasn’t a fan of any kind of religion, though after he learnt he was dying there was the slightest hint of a change of optimism “I like surprises”. I’m not fond of his prose-style which is “academically” boring. I much prefer yours. Rabbi Debbie Young was on radio this morning explaining the miracle of the seven days oil. Wouldn’t be enough for Blair’s miracles, methinks.
John, Angrysoba, from what I’ve read and seen recently Hitchins wasn’t a fan of any kind of religion, though after he learnt he was dying there was the slightest hint of a change of optimism “I like surprises”.
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I think this is a remark he made often when asked if he believed in an afterlife and I think he said it before he became ill. His remarks are explicit enough here:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbBVB66DC5k
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In fact, when god is not Great came out he was told it was obviously the work of a “seeker” (!)
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I’m not fond of his prose-style which is “academically” boring. I much prefer yours.
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Thank you. That’s very nice of you to say.
I agree, Angrysoba, unequivocal disbelief in March but Paxman interviewed Hitchens on 29 November. Unfortunately I can’t locate a working Youtube of it.
John Goss : Paxman interview with CH on 29/11/2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULHlyafo9P4
sorry John, just the preview, 7 minutes of it only, seems the actual hour long interview was removed by the uploader!
John Goss:
here is the full half interview on the news night website.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/9233571.stm
Stephen said this,
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” ..how else totalitarian regimes such as in Iraq (and more pertintly(sic) in Syria and Iran) should be dealt without resort to war??”
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I remind you Stephen war *is* “bad taste, profound ignorance and increasing detachment from reality.” Your first comment on a thread that describes the utter devastation of Iraq. So many children are now hungry orphans still searching for anything to sell. The water is still polluted in many villages.
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1.3 million violent post-invasion Iraqi excess deaths.
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1.0 million non-violent post-invasion Iraqi excess deaths (non-violent avoidable deaths).
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0.6 million post-invasion under-5 year old Iraqi infant deaths.
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Post-invasion Iraqi refugees total 6 million out of a population of 28 million.
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2.3 million Occupied Iraqi violent and non-violent excess deaths constitute an immense war crime.
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4.2 million violent and non-violent Iraqi excess deaths and 1.8 million under-5 year old Iraqi infant deaths under war and Sanctions 1990-2009.
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4.2 million Iraqi excess deaths (1990-2009) versus 5-6 million Jewish deaths (1941-1945).
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2.3 million Occupied Iraqi excess deaths and 6 million Iraqi refugees constitutes an Iraqi Holocaust and an Iraqi Genocide (UN Genocide Convention).
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US Alliance deaths in Occupied Iraq total 4,577 giving an Occupied Iraqi/Invader military death ratio of 503.
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US-bankrupting Iraq War accrual cost totals $3 trillion (Economics Nobel Laureate Professor Joseph Stiglitz).
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Just reparations for 2.3 million Occupied Iraqi excess deaths (at a US EPA valuation of $6.9 million per person) total $16 trillion.
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Sources: http://www.countercurrents.org/polya210309.htm
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{http://vimeo.com/33755968} – an American soldiers story
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Mark Golding – Children of Iraq Association
Mark, What a legacy.
The today’s children should grow up to be thoroughly ashamed of us.
Mary,
You have a better memory than some around here, do you recollect the aluminium boxes stuffed with one hundred dollar bills, and welded shut, belonging to Saddam? These were hidden in various places in Baghdad, and the US invasion forces kept finding these. The unconfirmed reports maintain three C5 cargo airplanes fully loaded with these boxes took off from Baghdad airport, but there are no confirmed landings of these crafts and their precious cargo anywhere in US.
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Also do you recollect a US Sargent sending a Humvee back home to his family? Or the UK SAS sergent with eleven million pounds stuffed in an ornamental vase in the front of his house?
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Wars are rackets for the unscrupulous sick bastards to make money and indulge in human hunting. However the bigger theft took place through the sequestration of the sanctioned “Gaddafi” accounts which are not likely to be made available all that easily to the Current Libyan authorities, these amount to about $150 billion.
Mark Golding,
and still some advocating war in Iran!
“… the keyboard defence brigade…” FedUp
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What is that, a branch of the WI? And charades? Didn’t you know, Christmas is the season for Charades!
Mark
If you look at the sentence of mine that you quoted it had two question marks at the end. The reason I asked the question was that I was looking for alternative ways of dealing with totalitarian regimes (such as Iraq, Iran and Syria) without resorting to war – which as we all know is to be avoided. My problem with much that you and many here say is that you fail to recognise that one of the lessons of history is that delay in dealing with totalitarian regimes actually makes war more inevitable – similarly the appeasement and ignoring the behaviour of said regimes. The behaviour of other regimes/states should also never be used as an argument for ignoring the behaviour of totalitarian regimes.
The real answer to avoiding wars means developing new forms of international institutions and sanctions which mean that totalitarians are nipped in the bud – I am afraid I see absolutely nothing in your approach that would in retrospect have changed how Iraq slid to war – or more pertinently would change a similar momementum in Syria and Iran.
At time you behave almost as if you were the dream opponent of the neo-cons. Rage and anger have their role – but sometimes there has to be a liitle creative and constructive thinking as well.
And we’ve now lost Vaclav Havel – if there is someone up there he appears to have it in for writers who oppose totalitarianism at the moment. If there was ever a man who demonstrated the importance of sticking to the truth through thick and thin it was Vaclav Havel.
John Goss
Since I don’t know your religion – seasons greetings and the gift of being able to see things at their face value. Btw – I’m not Jewish – but an agnostic from a long line of non-conformists mainly from Yorkshire (hence the stubborness).
@Angrysoba–I’m guessing that this is the Orwell quote you’re referring to;
“All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage — torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians — which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by ‘our’ side. . . . The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.”
However you are mistaken if you think this applies to the anti-war left who have opposed the recent wars waged by the West; instead if you think about it clearly Orwell remarks fit more the “humanitarian” pro-war supporters. Or put it another way, do you think that if Orwell was still alive, that he would be one of the so called & self-termed “Decent Left” ?!!
This supposed profess support you claim for the groups you mention is probably some anti-war people highlighting the hypocrisy & dishonestly in the pro-war arguments
I used to have a certain level of respect for you, Craig Murray, but this post puts you beneath contempt. You are a fucking idiot. Christopher Hitchens was a premier league writer. You are a nobody.
Suhayl Saadi,
You don’t say, everyday is a Xmas day on this board, the games they play.
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Eddie,
Seeing as you are a somebody with a fucking anonymous name and a fake email address, you bet Craig is really upset now, and sure as hell he will change his ways, and be apologetics to the scum bag full of shit turned into puss bag full of shit ex C. Hitchens.
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What is up Eddie why don’t you fucking hang yourself and join the freaky hero of yours C. Hitchens?
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Make me sick the fucking lunatics worshipping a loud-mouth war enabler.
@Eddie— “was” being the operative word, as in pre 9/11, but even if his writing haven’t gone to pot, he is still drenched in the blood of more people then even he has stiff drinks, and yet say he WAS another Shakespeare, I’ll still spit in his eye if he asked me for forgiveness, as some things are beyond ever being forgiven.
Macky
Thanks for digging out the quote by Orwell – if you think Orwell would not spot a little of the “nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them” in what you see as the “anti-war left” you are sadly mistaken. May I present as my first piece of evidence Mr George Galloway. And where is the disapproval of the behaviour of the Syrian regime among many commenters here – on the whole we get silence or even worse when it is blamed on foreign provocateurs.
Stephen, I could not help but to respond to that. If there was not this double standard, and the west would deal with ALL totalitarian regimes, then I would be the first one to applauding them. But we pick and choose, those who are with us, let them off, and this is the BIG problem, this is what has created so much resentment towards our governments. I was involved in helping prisoners in Egypt few years back. there were 20,000 political prisoners there, some of them for couple of decades and not even charged. Did we ever even criticize e Hosni? our esteemed PM the biggest criminal of all , God curse him, was the guest of Mubarak in Sharm 4 consecutive summer. We have been propping up dictators for ever , yet we now want to support people of Syria or the opposition in Iran, and imposing sanctions. Do you think if by our intervention we topple up the government of Iran, we will do the same for Saudi, Bahrain? NO we won’t, as long as they serve us first and put us before their own national interest who cares what kind of HR abuses goes on inside our “friendly” countries. I guess what I am saying is that the policies in the west is influenced by two things , one is “what is best for Israel”, and two “which government tows the line”.
Glenn Greenwald on Hitchins and “don’t speak ill of the dead” etc. He and Craig are in agreement. I recommend the piece to Eddie (and others).
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http://www.salon.com/2011/12/17/christohper_hitchens_and_the_protocol_for_public_figure_deaths/
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Stephen,
“I am afraid I see absolutely nothing in your approach that would in retrospect have changed how Iraq slid to war”
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Iraq “slid into war”? Which war would that be?