I guess we are in for a full three years of anti-Scottish lies from the mainstream media. One of the most common unionist lies is that Spain would veto Scottish independence, as claimed in today’s Independent. This canard has been about for years and is assiduously spread by unioinists. I have discussed it in the past with senior Spanish diplomats, and they have been unanimous that it is impossible that Spain would seek to veto Scottish membership.
Firstly, nobody in the EU has ever left the EU voluntarily, let alone been expelled, and the idea that 5 million EU citizens in a stongly pro-EU country would be thrown out against their will is not in the realm of practical politics. The whole dynamic of the EU is expansive, with countries continually accepted into membership who technically should not be. Everybody knows, for example, that Romania and Bulgaria were not remotely close to compliance with the acquis communitaire when they were admitted. There is no appetite anywhere in the EU to argue that an EU member successor state would have to re-apply.
Secondly, Scots are much liked internationally. There is a strong popular understanding throughout Europe of Scottish desire for independence – bagpipes, Braveheart and a separate football team are an intrinsic part of this strong Scottish popular recognition. There are no votes in Europe in being beastly to the Scots, and that includes Spain. The Spanish government are not stupid. It would be very unpopular in Spain to act against the Scots, and would infuriate the Catalans and actually boost the independence movement there. Tactically, there are times when it is best to pretrend to be relaxed about self-determination, as Cameron is doing.
Thirdly, there is a real difference here with the Kossovans. Spain does not oppose Slovenia, Croatia or other parts of the former Yugoslavia from EU membership. It did not oppose the Czech Republic or Slovakia. Spain does not automatically argue against EU membership for splitting states – that is a lie spread by English unionists. Unlike Kossovo, the Scottish state is not inextricably linkes with organised crime, and is not outside the EU.
Finally, as an example of Unionist lies and tricks, read the Independent article very carefully. You will see that the anaonymous “source” of the claim that Spain will veto Scottish EU membership is not anything to do with the Spanish government, but a Whitehall official.
The actual headline of the article should be:
“Whitehall Official Lies that Spain Would Veto Scottish EU Membership”.
Fourteen-pints-Billy will probably announce massive tax hikes on Haggis,IrnBru,Scotch eggs and pies and the tartan industry.Not,of course,forgetting tins of shortbread.
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Oh the statesmanship and grand vision of the man!
Well said Craig !
Ridiculous that Whitehall tries to speak for Spain.
Would Brussels cast Scotland out for daring to adhere to a plebiscite? Would we end up with even less clout than Israel, o favoured EU nation of the Middle East?
At the moment its insults and threats and ridicule,but that is strengthening the argument.
People I’ve known as red through and through for years are now staunch SNP.Not because of all the crap that’s going on now, but because Alex Salmond has brought common sense to Hollyrood and they have quite a few achievements under their belts so far.
Scotland feels different under the SNP.There’s a confidence there which wasn’t before.
If only Burns were around to put what’s going on north of the border into song and verse.
I wonder who the rogues are this time around and how big the bribe will be!
Or will it be tanks on the streets like they did in Glasgow ?
It is an interesting question whether the UK without Scotland would retain the same number of votes at the EU as currently on a par with Germany, Italy and France. It seems unlikely that a separate Scotland would be excluded from the EU. However, it is not unlikely that Spain would use an opportunity to make trouble for the UK as it does over Gibraltar.
Incidently I think it is important to be clear that this issue is about the separation of different parts of the UK not “independence”. The Union is a partnership not a colonial situation although it was different in Ireland.
The article seems to say that Spanish mandarins have voiced concenrs to counterparts in the UK, but prefer to say nothing openly.
There certainly are Catalonians wanting independence for their region; I met one at a certain international congress who insisted on calling himself a “Catalonian” and put “Catalonia” on his badge.
The Spanish possibly don’t want to cause offense by being seen to interfere in an issue internal to the UK. So this shouldn’t affect the campaign for Scottish independence. Not that I support Scottish independence, but I think the Spanish are wise not to get involved publicly.
“whatever happens you can be 100% it will turn out in the end to be as right wing or nearly as right wing as England”
No. One of the drivers of independence is that Scotland has remained social democratic while England has moved to the right, and the lack of fiscal independence could see social democracy in Scotland squeezed out by fiscal and economic policy at Westminster if Scotland remains in the Union. Scotland will stay capitalist but probably follow the continental Rhine model rather than the more right-wing Anglo-American model.
Spain won’t object, talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Why. Fishing, one of Spains’ most important European industries relies on Scottish fish!
Hi Craig, I have just told my husbnad this and he said WTF ..Spain is not interested in the UK or Scotland why are they dragging us into your nightmare ? A good friend of ours Gaspar llamazares is suing the FBI. So NO we have no interest in your country. lol
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/11/spanish-mp-fbi-al-qaida
And some in Canada (the colony Scotland never had) are now watching what’s going on with some excitement!
http://www.lfpress.com/comment/columnists/michael_coren/2012/01/20/19273346.html
I often wonder if it’s only Quebec being a part of Canada that makes the difference between English speaking Canada and the USA.
American cultural erosion of is ongoing.
Went on the bus today and managed to pay the fare in American coinage received as change from the corner store.
Saddening really.
Seven, we will try and manage without the fish if the worst comes to the worst. We have great sardines and our giant king prawns come from Argentina. We are in a crisis , we have not sold a property for five years , the restaurants are empty and people are not spending the little money they have for fear of losing their jobs.Ca 4,200,000 people unemployed it is every man for himself to just try and survive.
Rocki,
the same goes for Mullah Omar, his photo is in fact the photo of an Afghan shepherd whose life has been made a misery. Alas that poor bastard cannot sue the FBI or CIA or whatever.
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This one is even better…
http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/scots-independence/44530/northern-ireland-question-alex-salmonds-ticking-bomb
“Last night’s two bombs in Londonderry, credited to IRA dissidents, are a timely reminder that the impact on English security will be grave. As Republicans in Northern Ireland look east across the North Channel to Scotland (just 22 miles away at the narrowest point), they will see unfolding before them a “demi-paradise” – a country revelling in the sort of menacing and rancid anti-English sentiment more suited to the H Blocks than a modern European democracy.
Everywhere, the hated Union Flag will be lowered, military bases closed and even the ‘Black Bomber’ submarines, mighty symbols of the ‘independent’ nuclear deterrent, kicked out to new bases in the West Country.
For those who dream still of a 32-county Ireland it will be a time of opportunity. ”
etc etc etc, until MelGibson’s law is fulfilled in paragraph six.
Canada’s ex future Liberal PM Michael Ignatieff who retired from Politics (to our relief) on Scottish independance:”Scots could save themselves a fair amount of grief if they were to learn from our experience.”
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/upcoming-scottish-independence-vote-gets-cautionary-advice-canada-194542531.html
Today’s CBC Sunday edition on Scottish nationalism:
http://www.cbc.ca/thesundayedition/shows/2012/01/22/scottish-nationalists—canadian-poet-laureates/
I personally find it consistent that first and foremost many pro-independence Scots define themselves by their nationality in often crude and insular ways. It seems to me to be part and parcel of a reactionary mindset given that notions of identity more generally seem to increasingly transcend nation state concepts.
Doesn’t it strike those Scots who favour independence, for example, as being somewhat of an oxymoron that an already small nation existing within the context of an expanding EU, is to potentially be broken up into its constituent parts?
It seems to me that Scottish nationalists are no different from their English counterparts in that both essentially appear to adhere to a petty nationalist mindset.
Leaving aside all of the practical and constitutional difficulties like who owns what and to whom, other factors like the setting up of a separate currency, separate foreign embassies and consulates, a separate police force and armed forces, suggests to me that the notion of full independence is a folly.
The costs alone, nevermind the practicalities, are potentially mind-boggling. Moreover, Scotland is one of the few nations within Europe whose population is declining. Changing demographics of this nature imply economic unsustainability and long-term non-viability.
The arguments of nationalists who argue that oil will be a potential resource that will butress this eventuality, doesn’t wash either. The truth is, there is no Scottish oil – and there never has been – at least not while it has been possible to extract it.
Scotland would certainly have the lion’s share of the reserves in the event of independence – but until then the oil reserves belong to the UK – so any revenue generated, whether oil, whisky or whatever are just contributions which are passed on to central government, as are contributions from all areas of the UK.
There are many other questions that will be raised during the course of the ensuing debates that I haven’t got time to go into here but will nevertheless be raised by the anti side in due course. George Galloway, for example, will expose the flaws in the pro-position as the referenda draw closer.
At the end of the day, the Scots have the English over a barrel which has been the situation since devolution was introduced. That won’t change unless the Scots vote for full independence which is precisely why they are far too canny to allow that to happen.
I’m confident that the Scots will see sense and vote ‘nay’ to full independence.
Black propaganda and personal slander are the only unionist weapons. There is no positive case for the union – there was a three centuries long opportunity to make one, and it has been missed. The colonial, extractive, nature of the relationship cannot be undone in the two years left before the referendum so we are left with threats and insults. And (as linked above) Hague’ threat to Scottish whisky – the beginning of sanctions on the Iran of the north?
“Changing demographics of this nature imply economic unsustainability and long-term non-viability.”
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Uh – yes. Hardly a wonderful testimonial to the Union, wouldn’t you say? Perhaps confronted with such a diagnosis one ought to consider a prescription?
not read the independent article, no time, but comparison of Scotland and Kosovo is odious and inappropriate.
– Scotland is already a separate country
– Kosovo was hived off from Serbia by foreign military force and ethnic cleansing. If Salmond were calling in the USAAF and expelling the English and the blacks and the jews from Scotland, I and I suspect Craig would oppose him strongly.
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It’s completely different.
@tom Welsh.
“the Scottish state is not inextricably linked with organised crime…”
Well, not since the end of New Labour at least.@
There has been a long link between Italian organised crime and Scotland, as greatly explained by Robert Saviano in his book’ Gommorrah’ but these crime syndicates operate in England as well, having an Independent Scotland could make cooperation between the two more awkward. Organised crime has the habit to embed/invest itself in all sorts of public service companies, making for dependency situation which almost always turn out to their benefit.
Daniel- were you chewing on a sponge when you wrote the above? let me summarise for you:
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Nationalists are “crude and insular”…
Scotland will need it’s own embassies…
Its not Scotland’s oil….
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ummm…I haven’t the time to think of anything else but I’m sure Gorgeous George will come riding to the rescue.
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Well, that’s certainly changed my mind: a stunning summary of the Unionist case.
Billy fourteen pints is at again;
Mr Hague commented: “These (sanctions) are peaceful and legitimate measures. They are not about conflict.
He said,without so much as even wincing; evidently Sanctions against Iran which are an act of war, are now officially considered “peaceful”, that is in the midst of a double dip recession, that has been gifted to us all with the sponsors of Billy and co.
Thanks Craig. The suggestion that you are denigrating the opponents of Independence is, I think, misplaced. You seem to be denigrating the quality of their argument, which is a wholly separate – even independent – thing.
The trouble is that we are fed tales that are known, or ought to be known, as wrong by those telling them. That says a lot about the quality of the Unionists.
Lately we have been told
We can’t hold a referendum
We need to hold 2 referenda
The referendum must be held next year
The referendum can be held 2014
We can’t keep the Pound
We won’t be allowed into Europe
We will be forced to join the Euro
We can’t keep our soldiers
We must pay London for their nuclear weapons
Scotland would have had to bail out the RBS all by itself
None of these points is consistently argued, and many are simply wrong. Either the Unionists are ignorant or they are spinning mis truths and half truths.
I await with interest the positive case for the Union. Frequently, Unionists say that the key to the debate lies with the positive case, yet in all my years – I am your contemporary – I have heard only how or why Independence would be a bad thing, and never been told why Unionism is good. One benefit of a 30 month campaign is it gives time for the weak arguments to be debunked, and you have positively contributed to the debate
Sophia Ignatieff was once a talking head/public intellectual seen and heard constantly on the British media. Now he shills for Israel.
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Michael Ignatieff: Intellectual hypocrisy
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Canada’s Liberal leader, the intellectual- turned-politician became an uncritical supporter of Israeli aggression.
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http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/12/20111229111051709479.html
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By Derrick O’Keefe author Michael Ignatieff – The Lesser Evil
12 hours’ notice to the US if Israel attack Iran!!
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US and Israel on ‘Collision Course’
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By Uzi Mahnaimi
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January 22, 2012 “The Times” — ISRAEL has warned the US’s top general that it will give Washington just 12 hours’ notice if it decides to launch a strike against Iran’s nuclear facilities.
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The refusal to give more advance warning, which would prevent the US blocking the raid, is the latest sign of a breakdown of trust between the two allies over Israel’s response to Iranian ambitions to develop nuclear weapons.
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The impasse was highlighted after a meeting in Tel Aviv between General Martin Dempsey, chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, and Ehud Barak, the Israeli Defence Minister, last week.
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This followed a stormy transatlantic conversation between President Barack Obama and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, in which Mr Netanyahu turned down Mr Obama’s request for early warning of an attack on Iran.
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Mr Netanyahu suspects that Mr Obama, fearful of soaring energy prices, will go to any lengths to stop an attack going ahead before the US presidential election in November.
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The US and the EU have opted for tighter sanctions to deter Iran from building a bomb.
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EU foreign ministers meeting today are expected to ban Iranian oil imports. But the Israeli Prime Minister is concerned that military action may ultimately be necessary.
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The Israeli army has already undertaken intensive training and its elite 35th Paratroopers Brigade is preparing for long-range operations.
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Publicly the Americans and Israelis are playing down their differences. But Ron Ben-Yishai, a leading defence commentator, wrote last week on the Ynet website that “Israel and the US are on a head-on collision course unheard of in recent history.”
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A large joint anti-missile exercise planned for April has already been cancelled, officially for “technical and logistical reasons”.
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“All lies,” said an Israeli defence official, who claimed that Washington had pulled out as an expression of its displeasure. “We were shocked,” the official said. “It’s been planned for the last two years.”
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http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30323.htm
Tightening the screws.
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EU Iran sanctions: Ministers adopt Iran oil imports ban
EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton: “Tehran should come to the table”
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European Union foreign ministers have formally adopted an oil embargo against Iran over its nuclear programme.
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The sanctions involve an immediate ban on all new oil contracts with Iran, while existing contracts will be honoured until 1 July.
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Tehran denies that it is trying to develop nuclear weapons and says talks and not sanctions are the only way to resolve the dispute.
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The EU currently buys about 20% of Iran’s oil exports.
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Meanwhile, the Pentagon said the US aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln, as well as a British Royal Navy frigate and a French warship, have passed through the Straits of Hormuz at the entrance to the Gulf without incident in the wake of Iranian threats to block the trade route.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16674660
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Sky News have that unpleasant warmonger Con Coughlin from the Telegraph with his revolting and predictable views. He is supporting the embargo of course and welcomes the arrival of the US carrier and British and French ships. Mehdi Hassan is giving him a hard time.
The goal is regime change and these imbeciles, idiots, brainless do not realise that actually they are uniting people behind the government of Iran and strengthening the grip of the Mullahs on the power… Even the liberals in Iran have gone quiet; to do otherwise will be considered unpatriotic.
God saves us from these ignorant government of the west.
Well said Azra, this is the wests guarantee that there will be sometyhing to oppose and fight, because Irans people will fight back.
If even the US accepts that Iran is not developing a nuclear device, why are there still sanctions in place, what other reasons, bar the fact that the US has no control over Iran’s oil and/or trade.
The sanctions are not legitamite anymore, just a pretext to wind up Iran. We have no money to look after our disabled and OAP’s, not a penny to buy fighter planes, the MOD is pushing some 36 billion of debt to suppliers in front of them and we are smarting to go to war? Have they totally lost it?
I have been out with a friend Azra. In spite being fairly well informed, she knows nothing of the propaganda for war against Iran, the purchasing of the American republican candidates by Israel, the Israel push for war etc yet recited to me what a terrible life the women and children in Iran are enduring. I said to her that she had well and truly received the propaganda. She looked hurt at what I said.
She had probably been listening to James Reynolds reporting on Iran from Dubai! Notice the use of the word ‘destroy’ in this report.
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‘BBC Iran correspondent James Reynolds says oil is the country’s most valuable asset and sales help to keep the Iranian government in money and power.
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A decision by the EU to stop buying from Iran may damage the Iranian economy – but in itself it won’t destroy it, our correspondent says.
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The BBC’s James Reynolds visits Dubai where many people export goods to Iran
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Iran sells most of its oil to countries in Asia. The EU and the United States are now working to persuade Asian countries to reduce their purchases from Iran as well.
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Iran has already threatened to retaliate over the sanctions by blocking the Strait of Hormuz at the entrance to the Gulf, through which 20% of the world’s oil exports pass.
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The US has said it will keep the trade route open, raising the possibility of a confrontation.
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Late last year Iran conducted 10 days of military exercises near the Strait of Hormuz, test-firing several missiles.
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Oil prices have risen already because of the increasing tension and the expected impact of an EU ban on oil supplies to Europe.’
Mary, no doubt you notice that many well informed who comment here as well are taken in by this propaganda. How many times I had to repeat myself that things are not what they tell you. I am one of the fierce opponents of the present
Government of Iran, but have to admit that they have done awful lot of good for the poor of the country as well as infrastructure, road, electricity, running water, education. Women are neither subservient, nor pushed aside in education, industry or politics. There are more homeless and beggars in UK than there are in Iran. Yes Iran has many problems as well, but which country would not have it after 8 years of war and 30 years of sanctions. If these war /sanction were not imposed I very much doubt that Mullah’s would be in power today. I was talking to my brother in Iran yesterday asking him how was everthing, and what he told me was people hate the USA and UK more than ever (I am not surprised!)
“The Israeli army has already undertaken intensive training and its elite 35th Paratroopers Brigade is preparing for long-range operations.”
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This utter bullshit is to justify the unilateral sanctions that are getting slapped on Iran left, right, centre. Fact that Natanyahu would not dare to fart without first asking for permission from US, somehow is going missing in this brouhaha.
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This line of propaganda is entirely for the benefit of the Western audiences, and in the way of making acceptable the illegal money gouging exercises passed as “Sanctions”
If it does come to war,then all of the brave sailors in tghe Persian Gulf are sitting ducks with only one very narrow channel to get out,and that through Iranian waters.MMM Wonder how that one will turn out.
DonnyDarko,
As Mayan calender predicted it.
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There is nothing more I despise than the current batch of warmongers in leadership whom have never been in a school-fight never mind a battlefield.
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This how people’s daily (the communist party paper) sees the developing situation;
US actions make China-Russia alliance appealing
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….US becomes increasingly meticulous in eliminating potential challenges….
has somewhat defused two powder kegs in the Middle East: Iraq and Afghanistan…..Now it is preparing for a potential confrontation with Iran, and appears confident of another successful air strike.
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Such a demonstration of armed might makes powers like Russia and China increasingly nervous.
By stirring up other powers’ sense of insecurity, the US is actually undermining its own interests. Its security paranoia instills many uncertainties into global dynamics and into the US itself.
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Russians will not wait for this batch of wannabe democratising/lebensraum seekers to camp outside Moscow yet again.