Wonderful bit of balanced reporting from the BBC’s Frank Gardner. He said of Bahrain at 5.42pm on BBC News:
“The Shiite majority does suffer discrimination, but the rest of the population is getting fed up with the continual disruption and demonstrations.”
I remember similar arguments during apartheid:
“The black majority does suffer discrimination, but the rest of the population is getting fed up with the continual disruption and demonstrations.”
Doesn’t sound so good, does it? Anyway, here is to the BBC and keeping the interests of those troublemaking majorities firmly in the context of the much more important comfort of their oppressors.
He then explained that the oppression of opposition in Bahrain could not in the least be compared to the oppression of opposition in Syria, because in Bahrain the government had promised reform.
Frank Gardner is another mercenary soldier. He had some tough time in Saudi Arabia. I read his Blood Sand book. I do think he is a paid mercenary and I do think he is writing all these crap because of his wages.
Jon: Angry, what’s going on? We don’t see you for ages, and then you turn up channelling the spirit of Larry. You’re normally a great deal more nuanced than that – what’s up?
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And you imply we’re all racist because someone referred to someone’s else Jewishness.
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Hi Jon!
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I do read the posts and comments from time to time but the consensus here seems to be turning into a kind of black mass of Chicken Little, Doom Porn, Conspiracy Theory, False Flags and general all round pessimism that nuance is frankly impotent against.
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I don’t think that my comments are as bad as you say (spirit of Larry?!), but I am afraid I am not going to pretend to get along with (or even try) with those who have made it quite clear that they live way outside of reality. I just can’t indulge that kind of silliness.
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Downwiththissortofthing: It cannot be racist because Jews are no more a race than Christians, Moslems or Jehovas Witnesses.
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If anyone fancies having an argument about it may I suggest reading University of Tel Aviv’s resident Professor of History Shlomo Sand…
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In fact, races don’t exist, full stop. If you fancy having an argument about it I suggest you read Kenan Malick’s Strange Fruit, although there are plenty of other books on the subject, I am sure. But the point is that just because races don’t exist it doesn’t mean that racism doesn’t exist.
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This subject comes up fairly regularly with the upshot apparently being that racism against Jews/anti-semitism doesn’t exist because it can’t. If you go over to a number of what you might call “neo-con” websites you will find that exactly this kind of sophistry is used to explain away anti-Muslim prejudice with the explanation that as Islam is not a race it isn’t racist to be bigotted against Muslims.
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It’s obviously a very silly argument.
Did you know that Jehovah’s Witnesses had to wear Purple Triangles in Nazi concentration camps?
“Did you know that Jehovah’s Witnesses had to wear Purple Triangles in Nazi concentration camps?”
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And your point is?
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I’m not going to honor your previous diarrhea with a full response. You are clearly a silly dick who would rather believe a load of disprovable nonsense and support it with your own form of intellectual intolerance than have a rational conversation about it.
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You claim that pointing out a widely accepted HISTORICAL and SCIENTIFIC fact is a “kind of sophistry” aimed against Jews. One of the most pathetic arguments to support a claim of racism that I have ever heard.
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I will not be cowered into keeping my mouth shut and support blatant lies so as not to appear to be racist against people who are not even a race but religious converts from various Eastern European countries.
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The cherry on top of your post was when you said races don’t exist. First you state that Jews are a race subject to racism and when an argument surfaces which contradicts your assertion you then claim that there are no races. Now that’s not even sophistry, just pure bullshit.
Angrysoba, brought up as a Jehovah’s Witness, I knew the Witnesses were sent to the concentration camps. The purple triangles were never mentioned, though.
DownWithThisSortOfThing, do read Angrysoba’s comments in full:
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Angrysoba, Mary’s comments haven’t read like support of Assad’s regime to me. Rather, she has highlighted propaganda against Assad’s regime. When the Homs death toll was revised sharply downward after the UNSC vote, she pointed this out and said “of course, any deaths are wrong” or something similar. Having a go over semicolons won’t win you any supporters either!
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Jon, I think Angrysoba has a point. I expressed my disagreement with anti-Jewish comments a couple of days back. Polarisation itself is our enemy. War is supported by polarisation.
Did you know that Jehovah’s Witnesses had to wear Purple Triangles in Nazi concentration camps?
Yes, everyone knows this, because they learned it at school, ad nauseum. It is also used by consequetive generations as comparisson for vile and degrading behaviours.
For how long will this persist? When will it be passee to tint the eyes of many with the same old brush stroke, continue to smear the next three generations with the same propaganda that existed during the Nuremberg cangaroo trials?
Can you see german newspapers writing article after article about the bad treatment of kenians during the Mau Mau period, over the invention of the concentration camps by British Boors, or the torturing of POW’s?
Open up any regional paper and you will find at least one article /week harking back to the good/bad old days when we fought the NAZI’s.
Maybe its an expression of todays societal pangs, too many Nazi’s about allround, some of them, who have never changed being NAZI’s are arch Zionists, doing as was done to them, but hey, who would give a flying f..k here in the UK, its parties and vital actions are controlled by them.
@Clark – thanks – I probably agree more with Angry more than my comment indicated. I thought of striking the Jewish comment out when he initially raised it, but once something gets discussed at length, a lot of conversations would have to be struck out, and we try not to do that sort of thing here…
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@Angry, you are quite correct about the existence of racism of all kinds, including anti-Jewish racism. It is fine to raise it, although I still maintain that it not having been challenged in the space of 10 posts in not evidence of widespread anti-Jewish sentiment. I agree that people such as Mark take a different view on Iran (etc) but that’s fine – that’s the point of this board. I sense I take a position somewhere between the two of you 😉
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Anyway, your input is missed. If you start commenting again, then according to your measures, the balance of sanity here will be restored!
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@All, as an aside: I tend not to refer to ‘anti-semitism’, as I feel it elevates one kind of racism above the others. I think all racism is equally abominable. I do strike it out if I encounter it quickly enough, but sometimes an equally good response is to challenge people on their preconceptions.
> Did you know that Jehovah’s Witnesses had to wear Purple Triangles in Nazi
> concentration camps?”
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Actually, I didn’t – interesting (I am in danger of spending the afternoon on Wikipedia, rather than working!).
Did you know that eleven million Iranians died of starvation and cold, because the allied soldiers crossing Iran on their way to reach the Russian front had sequestrated the food, fuel and the transport infrastructures, leaving very little to nothing for the Iranians’ consumption?
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Certainly a myth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ingo,
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The
HistoryHitler Channel would have had difficulties in providing any kind of scheduled programming if it were not for WWII, in fact dare I say Murdoch would have had to start a war to fill in the programming gaps.,
Everyone ought to read the Shlomo Sand “The invention of Jewish people”, the misconstrued conflation of a religion with diverse group of people and call it a race is an unacceptable zionist ploy.
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FedUp: Did you know that eleven million Iranians died of starvation and cold, because the allied soldiers crossing Iran on their way to reach the Russian front had sequestrated the food, fuel and the transport infrastructures, leaving very little to nothing for the Iranians’ consumption?
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This is a reference to British (and to some extent Russian) conduct in Persia in World War One. I have never heard figures as high as eleven million – do you have a source for that? – although two million is certainly credible and a matter of shameful and callous contempt by the British who were unconcerned by the plight of Persian farmers and made conduct of the war their sole priority. I think I read about this in Ervand Abrahamian’s History of Modern Iran but the figure of two million also came up in Tim Weiner’s Legacy of Ashes. It’s a staggering number. If your point is that these things deserve to be more widely known then I thoroughly agree. If you are making a more fatuous, posturing point about two wrongs cancelling each other out or some tu quoque nonsense then I’m not interested.
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FedUp: Everyone ought to read the Shlomo Sand “The invention of Jewish people”, the misconstrued conflation of a religion with diverse group of people and call it a race is an unacceptable zionist ploy.
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I think Shlomo Sand is right; there is no such race as Jews; there is no such thing as race.
Angrysoba,
Eleven million Iranians deaths has been documented in the Iranian records, however due to the ex Shah’s imperatives these documents have been buried in the archives and not much attention has been paid to these. However this matter has been referred to in the Iranian parliament, and the figure of eleven million has gone on the parliamentary records, resulting in a working party to investigate the “lost” records.
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Unjust death of one human being is one death too many, considering the gargantuan numbers ……………. far beyond the tolerance of any sane human being.
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However, the simple fact that this near genocide is only coming to light now, itself is an indication of deference even after death.
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Finally given that the concept of race does not exist, and is an arbitrary construct designed to exploit a target group that is considered as an underclass, why do you raise the subject of “anti semitism”?
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PS not being nasty in any way, note that I have even refrained from using my favourite term ziof….
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AngrySoba wrote:
“I do read the posts and comments from time to time but the consensus here seems to be turning into a kind of black mass of Chicken Little, Doom Porn, Conspiracy Theory, False Flags and general all round pessimism that nuance is frankly impotent against.”
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What on Earth are you talking about? I’ve hardly posted a thing here in months!
Finally given that the concept of race does not exist, and is an arbitrary construct designed to exploit a target group that is considered as an underclass, why do you raise the subject of “anti semitism”?
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Because anti-semitism is a case of attacking a particular target group.
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Eleven million Iranians deaths has been documented in the Iranian records, however due to the ex Shah’s imperatives these documents have been buried in the archives and not much attention has been paid to these. However this matter has been referred to in the Iranian parliament, and the figure of eleven million has gone on the parliamentary records, resulting in a working party to investigate the “lost” records.
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Then I would be very interested in finding out more about these records and any scholarly sources that exist on this subject. I mean this sincerely.
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Glenn_UK: What on Earth are you talking about? I’ve hardly posted a thing here in months!
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Well, you should be flattered by the plethora of imitators. 😉
Ingo: Yes, everyone knows this, because they learned it at school, ad nauseum. It is also used by consequetive generations as comparisson for vile and degrading behaviours.
For how long will this persist? When will it be passee to tint the eyes of many with the same old brush stroke, continue to smear the next three generations with the same propaganda that existed during the Nuremberg cangaroo trials?
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It’s now demonstrably untrue that everyone knows (or knew) about the purple triangles. But I think you misunderstand the purpose of my mentioning the example. It came because Downwiththissortofthing seemed to be making a point about persecuting people on religious grounds is no different to persecuting other religions such as, his example, Jehovah’s Witnesses. I pointed out that Jehovah’s Witnesses have suffered very severe and brutal discrimination in the past and it makes no difference if Jehovah’s Witnesses are a race or not.
. True, it is sometimes pointed out that religions are choices whereas “races” are not. But in practice this is less realistic than such a clear-cut distinction suggests.
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Also, the Nuremberg Trials shouldn’t be called a Kangaroo Court. I would agree with calling them “show trials” in the sense that the Western Powers wanted to demonstrate their cause in WWII was righteous and their foe was evil but this doesn’t mean that the trial was a farce. In fact, some of the defendents were acquitted, such as Hjalmar Schacht, Admiral Donitz etc…
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Can you see german newspapers writing article after article about the bad treatment of kenians during the Mau Mau period, over the invention of the concentration camps by British Boors, or the torturing of POW’s?
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It was the British who put the Boers in concentration camps. Although I suppose there could be another meaning by saying that British Boors invented them.
It is a simple matter to find a source.
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Review
Majd brings the Persian famine, an issue that in the past has received very little attention, to the forefront. Middle East Journal Majd brings the Persian famine, an issue that in the past has received very little attention, to the forefront. Middle East Journal
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Product Description
As many as eight to ten million Persians perished because of starvation and disease during the famine of 1917-1919, making it the greatest calamity in Persia’s history. In this book, Mohammad Gholi Majd argues that Persia was the greatest victim of World War One and also the victim of possibly the worst genocide of the twentieth century. Using U.S. State Department records, as well as Persian and British sources, Majd describes and documents a veritable holocaust about which practically nothing has been written. It is the first book in Majd’s World War I trilogy.
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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Famine-Genocide-Persia-1917-1919/dp/0761826335
Well spotted Craig. Still, shouldn’t be too hard on Frank Gardner. Do you expect him to find out facts for himself and then report them? That might require going to his laptop and reading reports from Human Rights Groups and others on what is actually going on Bahrain, or talking to different experts on Bahrain, or even him having to travel around the capital of Bahrain talking to protesters. Why should he go and do any research or work at all when he can simply repeat what the Foreign Secretary or a government press officer has told him and his bosses are happy?
and if he started routinely taking a different line from the government and bringing up all the facts that might embarass them enough that he’d go the way of Andrew Gilligan
Mary: It is a simple matter to find a source.
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Yes, it is. But it is also a simple matter to find sources that contradict those claims.
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Last night I looked up the subject of the famine again in Ervand Abrahamian’s book and I again found the number of two million deaths for that period. On top of that, Abrahamian suggests that there were many other factors involved in those deaths and not just British requisitioning of the food. While British actions clearly played a part and are to be condemned, the post-war influenza pandemic was also seen as a big factor in the number of deaths.
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As it happens, I emailed Professor Abrahamian himself, who replied to me that the British requisitioning could not possibly be as large a factor as that as the South Persia Rifles was a small group rather than millions who needed feeding. Prof. Abrahamian puts the majority of deaths down to bad harvests and pandemic and says that “nationalist” historians can be as free with the facts as imperialists.
“nationalist” historians can be as free with the facts as imperialists.
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Does this also apply to the zionists historical narratives? If thus, why Finkelstein’s Holocaust Industry, somehow has not made any difference to the ziomatons and their hive mentality?
Passerby: Does this also apply to the zionists historical narratives? If thus, why Finkelstein’s Holocaust Industry, somehow has not made any difference to the ziomatons and their hive mentality?
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Tedious…tedious…
The hate Arabs foster against Persians is not to do with sectarianism, but racial. So it is logical for Arabs and the west to become bedfellows as they are both engaged in racial hatred. The only stupid is the Arab who is bent of destroying his neighbours in the belief that he will be spared by his new found friends.
Many people suffered under the third Reich, and not just in Germany. The atrocities committed to Roma, ‘degenerate’ artists such as Klimt, rebellious clergy, homosexuals and communists is known, it is a fact.
Greece’s bailout is not just a German endeavor, the UK has contributed, as has France and Finland,etc. this is a European bailout. We can already hear the voices saying ‘Germany is walking away from it.’ once again a personification and perception is created that focuses on Germany, not the underlying basic issue that our system is unsustainable and failing, as is the EU.
Greece was an add on, its public sector is spoiled and corrupt, and I can’t see any reason for defending an over bloated public sector in Greece, when one equally cheers on the cuts here, wants to get rid of a stuffily staffed bureaucracy, locally and nationally.
To cut Greece loose is not the solution. Appointed commissioners are the problem, as is the lobbying and close relations with vested interests, the lack of internal reform and explicit fraud committed by most member countries, some more than others.
The EU needs reforming for the better, this is not what it is and voters are not represented by the political mergers and coalition building processes, not to speak of the central political directions.
Now I have made a point for more involvement, for getting right in there, shaping Europe, for our and others interest, rather than the moping from the sidelines Cameron delivered, he’s been eyeballed by right wingers, so he pulled himself out by his cravat, when its most important.
Those who are accusing Germany have no legs to stand on, they ran away.
Greece will have its debts canceled to some extends, but still has the same old inefficient services/public sector and an economy that relies on tourism and agricultural exports. International shipping is another important sector but not very lucrative. Greece’s upper echelons are rumored to have some 600billion Euro’s deposited in Swiss banks? I can’t see their nationalism and love for their country kicking in here, they are alright, Jack, and its the same class of people who will once again start ripping Greece off.
Defaulting and accepting changes to their system, is the best that could have happened to Greece, because as it looks like, the police is paid by the crooks and the public are pants at changing their system in any other way. Now there is an impetus for change, now the public will have to make changes at political level and in services, and without default, its merely perpetuating the agony which is inevitable, who knows, not just for Greece.
Goebbels, yes…there was another one on TV tonight, presenting Panorama. His name is Alasdair Campbell. Remember him? Remember who he worked for? Do you remember what his former employer did back in 2003?
By rights, Mr Campbell should be awaiting trial in the Hague. He’s also popped up on C4 “satire” programme Ten O’Clock Live.
Satire. Oh dear. And oh dear BBC for having him front a once-great current affairs programme.
Gilligan was right.