Why is self-determination an inalienable right for the people of the Falklands, but a gross example of Iranian meddling for the people of Bahrain?
Answers on a postcard please with a twenty pound note and framed photo of William Hague to Wars’R’Us, Oil and Armaments Ltd, House of Lords.
Another article of faith emerges hence no debate necessary.
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Explain this concept “article of faith”.
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I don’t expect you will, of course. I expect you just think it sounds like a cool thing to bag someone for. The ironic thing is that you and Clark are the ones who think faith is groovy and so it seems to me funny that you would use the word as a criticism. 😛
Here’s Angrysoba, in “debate” with a very patient and polite opponent. Should I trust Angrysoba? Should I wish for his respect?
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“How do these tell us who was responsible?”
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Moron! They tell us who was on the plane. Guess what? Some of those guys knew guys who also trained in flight schools who also hijacked planes that same day and flew them into buildings.
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Put it all together, moron!
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“Everyone at the airport will have appeared in videos! Why are the alleged hijackers picked out?”
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See above, moron!
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” You are really missing the point here. Lists published by FBI not official manifests. Official manifests never published: get it now? ”
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Official manifests released, dickhead!
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“Except the most basic and important one: a full forensic analysis of the events themselves, as the police would routinely do after any major crime.”
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I hope for humanity’s sake you are sterile. It would be the height of cruelty for anyone to be born with your genes.
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http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/01/gaza_and_guanta/#comment-271063
Don’t worry Clark. The Quantum Fairy will send me to Hell for my nastiness.
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Boo hoo hoo! 😛
But thanks for this one:
“I hope for humanity’s sake you are sterile. It would be the height of cruelty for anyone to be born with your genes.”.
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I had quite forgotten about it and think it was a good quip. I’m not quite sure if you quoted me in context but nevermind.
Angrysoba:
Earlier you refused to answer my question about why it is ok to for Americans to call for regime change but not Iran.
When you explain that, I will reply to you.
Njegos (at 1.06 pm and 2.37 pm) and Angrysoba (at 1.58 pm) It’s not a subject on which one can shut down debate by deciding that one side is right. In any case, this is not just about the historic national claims to sovereignty – on which there is a debate but one that can only be resolved peacefully by agreement, arbitration or the outcome of a case at the International Court of Justice. There is also the question of what rights the inhabitants of the Falkland Islands have; and to what extent are the actions of the Argentine and UK governments sensible in terms of their stated and perhaps unstated objectives. As one of my earlier posts makes clear, I do not think the FCO (acting in what it saw as Britain’s best interests) has a good long-term track record of regard for the interests of the Falkland Islanders.
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The tendency to put what is seen as UK interests above the interests of those living in a UK colony/ overseas territory [which are legally indistinguishable terms]was also seen in UK actions and in the flawed – in my view – majority verdict by the Law Lords in the case of the Chagossians.
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I agree that the UK has a patchy record of support for self-determination. I’m afraid it’s not unusual for diplomats, lawyers and salesmen to bang the drum for principles that support their case, but to be rather quiet when the same principles support the other side in a different case.
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I was not trying to suggest that Argentina had any obligation to make the defence of the Falklands less costly for HMG. My point was that such costs may well have been a factor in the FCO’s earlier interest in seeing if a ” mutually agreeable solution” could be found. But if Argentina would like those in the Falklands to regard them as friends rather than enemies, trade boycotts are not an obvious way to achieve this.
Iain:
Your points are extremely well taken and in fact I think that whatever the merits of Argentina’s claim, it is not a claim worth pursuing provided there can be some sort of binding agreement (and pigs will fly, I suppose) on sharing the surrounding marine and mineral resources.
It’s obvious that the Casa Rosada doesn’t care what the Falklanders think which is why they are escalating the economic and diplomatic pressure. This is not about making friends but making Britain pay.
In any event there are 2 sides to this debate which may come as a shock to certain participants in this discussion.
Njegos: Earlier you refused to answer my question about why it is ok to for Americans to call for regime change but not Iran.
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I didn’t realize that I said it was okay for America to call for regime change.
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Nevertheless, I think it is okay to call for regime change in certain parts of the world and, indeed I have done. I won’t be dissuaded by a bunch of moping silly billies like you whinging about the soveriegnty of their macho dictators.
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The thing about “regime change” is whether or not the regime in place is one that is worth deposing or not. This involves the Kryptonite of the Juvenile Adolescent Posturing Left – making distinctions. The aforementioned Juvenile Left have no idea how to make distinctions and thus, for them, there is no difference between a ramshackle, corrupt democracy and totalitarian dictatorship. Indeed, for them the only “distinction” is that they pay no attention to the crimes of totalitarian dictatorships and go all gooey at the sight of the leader in the military uniform. So, maybe I should ask you why you think it is OK for Iran to call for regime change.
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Now will you kindly explain the meaning of the concept “article of faith” which you used when I said that Britain was wrong about the Chagos Islands and right about the Falklands. You said you would answer my question on this.
Amusing how the inner Christian always emerges under pressure, howling ‘shit’, ‘moron’, dickhead’.
Aha, the ‘two sides to the debate’ falsehood. Girl getting raped on Wimbledon Common cries for help. ‘There are two sides to the debate, dear,’ says copper. ‘Get round the table and solve the problem by negotiation. Violence is not the way.’
Last BMW I nicked, the wally had the nerve to want it back. ‘I have an aspiration to this car,’ I explained. ‘My claim may be weak but I feel strongly about it. Rather as Adolf H. felt about
Poland, or the zionists about Palestine.’
In this world of trouble, there is no excuse for gratuitously causing more trouble, as the Argies are doing. Leave people alone to their harmless ways. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
On Craig’s other point, sympathy must be with the Shias in Bahrein, their oppression aided by our own evil neocon rulers. Why don’t the Shias simply switch to being Sunnis? It can’t make any difference which clown cult you wave your arse at.
Iain Orr – 1833 saw the forceful removal of the Argentine population from Las Malvinas/Falkands. Reminds me a bit like the events surrounding Diego Garcia, and that “peaceful” upliftment of the population from said location. Might does not make right.
The Georgias and Sandwich Islands history evolved somewhat differently.HMG in 1908 relied on an internal letter patent to claim all the islands adjacent to Chile and Argentina. By 1976 Argentine/British co-operation over the islands soured, and this related directly to issues over oil exploration ( not surprisingly).
The positioning by HMG has more to do with claims on territory for reasons of resource domination, than, as you suggested, with claims in law that are sound.
Sorry Iain – I don’t buy the official FCO script. There are usually two sides to a dispute, especially those arising within the context of international law. The difficultly with reading one language and hearing only one narrative is that the English text, reads somewhat differently from the Spanish narrative.
I have restored Nextus’s comment that I was unable to withstand:
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http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/02/question-of-the-day/#comment-341282
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Bonifacegoncourt and others are right. I am mentally ill. I awoke after nightmares, and have spent the whole day in a mixture of wishing to bash my own face with my fists and wishing to kill myself. Hatred is all.
In fairness, I should add that I do not attribute my illness to Nextus’s comment, however, it seemed to be the trigger beyond which I could no longer cope.
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I am no longer collecting my e-mail, nor reading comments on this blog.
My adoptive mother’s death, and calling out the vet to have my dog killed, seem to be the most important events. It is these that have dominated my nightmares.
I have now deliberately locked myself out of the moderator’s interface by entering a random password and keeping no record of it. “Slug” is now inaccessible to me.
Cripes! I feel a bit of heel now. That’s not the first commenter I’ve reduced to a quivering wreck with grinding analysis and indelicate rhetoric. According to the Reader’s Digest, it pays to enrich your word power; yet according to Uncle Ben in the Spiderman franchise, with great power comes great responsibility. I’m beginning to think there was more wisdom in the cartoon. Maybe I should fit a safety catch to my browser, by re-editing the hosts file. In any case, please let’s draw a line under the whole messy business.
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Regarding the Falklands/Malvinas, if we approach it humanistically then we should prioritise the interests of the people who will be most affected in real terms: the islanders. The vying for national and corporate interests by distant politicians is the product of tribalism, greed and political ego.
Che Bonifacegoncourt. Que lastima que nadie te de bola. Viste pasa que no es un buen foro para los viejo verdes. Que siga disfrutando las charlas inutiles con los tacheros. Chau pajero!
Angrysoba:
“I think it is okay to call for regime change in certain parts of the world”
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Fine. So stop complaining when Iran does it.
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As for that “article of faith”, are you really so naive to believe this is about who is right and who is wrong? Wow, atheo-fundies really do believe in fairy tales.
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This is about power, pure and simple. Might makes right in our evolutionary world and England has the military power to keep Argentina out.
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Your righteousness is so quaint.
Clark, I’m so terribly, terribly sorry to hear of the loss of your adoptive mother. I know how I felt when I lost my mother. Please accept my profound sympathies.
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“That’s not the first commenter I’ve reduced to a quivering wreck with grinding analysis and indelicate rhetoric.” Nextus.
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For goodness (if not God’s or Caesar’s) sake, man, anonymised keynote speech or no, once, just once, a little humility and a little less pride might go a long way.
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To quote the wise slave: “Look behind you, remember you are only a man”.
Btw, Nextus, don’t kid yourself. You didn’t reduced Clark to “a quivering wreck with grinding analysis and indelicate rhetoric”. The death of his adoptive mother did – that makes him a normal human being.
Can you all please leave it and go away and calm down. It is becoming pointless.
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Clark. Take care of yourself, wrap up warm and get some sleep.
Suhayl, with respect, that statement was a regret, not a boast. A meltdown is an awful thing to witness, never mind participate in. You’re right, I didn’t cause it – the message wasn’t vindictive, abusive or defamatory – but I did provoke it, and that’s enough reason to chastise myself, at least for being clumsy or presumptive. FWIW, I actually did take the blame initially – you haven’t see the private correspondence, or my expressions of sympathy and solidarity in return – so please don’t assume you have a God’s eye view. Thanks for being so sensitive, though.
@Iain,
” I was not trying to suggest that Argentina had any obligation to make the defence of the Falklands less costly for HMG. My point was that such costs may well have been a factor in the FCO’s earlier interest in seeing if a ” mutually agreeable solution” could be found. But if Argentina would like those in the Falklands to regard them as friends rather than enemies, trade boycotts are not an obvious way to achieve this.”
So – “…if Argentina would like those in the Falklands to regard them as friends rather than enemies, trade boycotts are not an obvious way to achieve this”
But – at the same time HMG is pressing on with its agenda for continued dominant control, and in contrast Argentina is not obliged to take steps that it deems in its best stategic interest. Since the implanted population inot the Falklands has an allegiance to HMG – what other steps could the Argentinians take – but to oppose that which is not in their interest and advance a policy that is indeed very costly for HMG’s maintenance of its position?
“Implanted population”? That would be the Argentinians, then. What is in their “interests” is to avoid being assholes.
Che Bonifacegoncourt. Me encantas con tus papelones, boludo. Que siga garpando milliones para proteger a tus queridos kelpers en las lomas del orto hasta que se agote la guita en los arcos. Pelotudo.
Clark, I am sorry to hear about your family circumstances. I didn’t know but should have realized where the passion with which you were arguing was coming from. Get in contact with some friends and please don’t do anything silly. Blog boxes on the Internet are generally not reliable places for comfort. Anyway, I hope we can speak again when you feel less despairing.
Clark, I repeat the sentiments above. I was not hostile to you but to the irrational doctrines which cause upset. Be well.
Njegos: So stop complaining when Iran [calls for regime change].
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You may have read my whole post which included this:
The thing about “regime change” is whether or not the regime in place is one that is worth deposing or not. This involves the Kryptonite of the Juvenile Adolescent Posturing Left – making distinctions. The aforementioned Juvenile Left have no idea how to make distinctions and thus, for them, there is no difference between a ramshackle, corrupt democracy and totalitarian dictatorship.
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By your logic one call for regime change is as good as another. Well, if that is true and you support Iran’s calls for “regime change” in Israel then presumably you accept or won’t complain when others, such as the US, call for regime change in Iran, Iraq, North Korea, Zimbabwe etc… Oh? What’s that you say? Oh, you do complain? Well, then you are trying to have things both ways.
Clark, I am so sorry to hear about your mum, it’s a terrible loss. My heart goes out to you.
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How about some music therapy? The Doors – Universal Mind.
youtube.com/watch?v=G9E1uN2bauI
Thanks, Nextus. I didn’t realise there had been private correspondence as well.
Clark my dear; hold on please and remember that no-one deserves to be given pain, least of all by themselves. I am so sorry that things have been so hard, but they have, and you have come through it – these are the aftershocks I would think? And they will pass, I know it.
And taking a break from this board is not always a bad thing! You have done an amazing job, you know.