The London Olympics are already achieving the number one aim of the politicians who brought them here, which is making our politicians feel very important indeed.
The media is quite frenetic in its efforts to make us all believe we should be terrifically proud of the fact we are hosting the Olympics, as though there were something unique in this achievement. If we can’t competently do something that Greece, Spain and China have done in recent years, that would be remarkable. Of course the Games will be on the whole well delivered, sufficient for the media and politicians to declare it an ecstatic success. Some of the sporting moments will be sublime, as ever.
But did it have to be in London? We won’t know the total cost of the Games for months, but it will cost the taxpayer at least £9 billion and I suspect a lot more. I also suspect the GDP figures will, in the event, show that the massive net fall in visitor numbers has hurt the already shrinking economy further.
But to take the most optimistic figure, holding the Olympics in London has cost every person in the country an average of £150 per head in extra taxes. That is £600 for a family of four. Actually it is in the end going to be well over £2,000, as of course the money has been borrowed on the never never, and taxpayers are going to be paying it off their whole lives, along with the sum ten times higher they are already paying direct into the pockets of the bankers through their taxes.
The very rich, of course, don’t pay much tax, so they are not worried.
But to take just the figure of £600 extra taxes for a family of four, the lowest possible amount, and not including the interest. Is having the Olympics here really worth paying out £600 for? If Tony Blair had approached the head of the family and said “We are going to have the Olympics in London, but it’s going to cost you £600, would the answer have been from most ordinary people: “Yes, great idea, this is that important to us”?
People are not disconcerted because they don’t see that they have to pay. There is no special Olympics tax, and they pay their taxes in a variety of ways, and individuals are not the sole source of taxation. But this is nonetheless real money taken from the people in pursuit of the hubris of politicians.
I love sport. I hate the corruption of the International Olympic Committee, Fifa and the rest; I hate the vicious corporatism and militarisation of our capital and absurd elitism of the transport lanes; the sport itself I love. But with the economy contracting, and the NHS being farmed out for profit, is it really worth £600 for a family – and many families are really struggling in a heartbreaking way – is it worth the money to have the Olympics here rather than in Paris?
Of course it isn’t. I think many of us will feel an extra pleasure watching the Opening ceremony because it is British. Patriotic pride will surge. It is not wrong to enjoy the spectacle tonight on TV. The corporate well connected and ruling classes will enjoy it in the stadium.
But after you have watched it on TV, ask yourself this question. How much more did you enjoy it than enjoy watching the Beijing ceremony, and was that margin of extra enjoyment something that everybody in the room would have paid out £150 for?
Because they just did.
Currently those coming in are without probity, nor are they accountable to our institutions much, running away from their societal problems in Greece Italy and elsewhere, did I mention Uzbekistan?
They come here for the lack of financial control, the corruption in the police force/ media, dare I mention auntie here, they know that money averts the limelight,looking at chartered bank and HSBC they realise that in London, banks are able to deal in whatever you require and the poxy Government that has no control over its backbenchers, fostering a Obama Schmarotzer relationship, too weak to squeal against the Israeli domination of our foreign policy. That’s what they like about this country, the inbred masochism of the populace and the level of domination they have become attired to
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You clearly thought that I would support the violence on the jewish community, please tell us, why did you mention violence in this context at all? I made sure not to be specific.
If you are fishing, technicolour, try a different bait.
Racism is alive and well in deepest Surrey. Note the police and the BBC call it vandalism.
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Thanks Mary, this is the kind of pernicious racism that is so very accepted and tolerated, in fact a tacit acceptance of existence of an agreed uncivilised underclass whom deservedly are admonished.
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Fact that it is not even considered any kind of racism or racial harassment, is telling of indifference and acquiescence,similar to acceptance of horrible practices of “whites only” and “blacks only” in days of the segregation in US, and Apartheid in South Africa, that is currently exercised in isreal, and evidently universally accepted in the West.
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The debate on this thread is a hollow and meaningless pedantry.
Tellingly many of those who insist on ramming their multi-cutural agenda down everyone’s throats subscribe to the monstrous libelling of muslims for the 911 and 7/7 attacks.
The same people ascribe the Oklahoma bombing, and the Brevik massacre in Norway to Far Right groups.
Such people are utterly wrong in all cases.
These were all state-sponsored false-flag attacks that had nothing to do with muslims or the Far Right.
Nuid wrote – “As Technicolour said, the handful of people involved were nationalist separatists anyway”
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. I would disagree that nationalism and separatism are synonomous. Welsh nationalism for example, is progressive and inclusive. Separatism is a vague unhelpful construct – is the British state nationalist separatist because of elements that don’t want to be in Europe, or by its very existence? Are Slovakia,Slovenia,Eritrea,Jamaica separatists for putting their drive for national autonomy?
Sorry, one more:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TigWa7k9L28
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What we need more of is slow art: art that holds time as a vase holds water: art that grows out of modes of perception and making whose skill and doggedness make you think and feel; art that isn’t merely sensational, that doesn’t get its message across in ten seconds, that isn’t falsely iconic, that hooks onto something deep-running in our natures. In a word, art that is the very opposite of mass media.
Fedup, I do not believe that Komodo has anything against Muslims; he has done excellent research to expose the corruption behind the military violence inflicted upon predominantly Muslim people in the pursuit of oil, profits from arms sales, and support of Israel.
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This military violence, and propaganda to justify it, and reaction to it (“terrorism”), between them cause most of the negative associations that many of the public make about Muslims; far more than does discussion of immigration policy. Komodo’s efforts target the major causes of Islamophobia. That is why I’ve been defending Komodo’s right to expression against Technicolour’s argument that Komodo is a scaremonger inciting racism.
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I hope you don’t see that as hollow pedantry.
“That’s what they like about this country, the inbred masochism of the populace and the level of domination they have become attired to”
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I think thats coming from mean part of you Nevermind. What many/most immigrants certainly like/hope about this country is it is not as abysmal as where they are coming from. Their circumstances and characters are all different. They are people searching for better life not little devils planning out where best to roost. No they arent all sweet and dandy like some might insist you must accept, but to paint the flow of living characters like that is wrong, very negative and very similar negativity is causing violence.
It does make it hard to discuss actual geographical immigration policy/effects/economics etc if people are flippant or mean about the situation which is causing violence and discord.
Chris, they were Welsh nationalists, is all I remember. I won’t quibble about the terminology. Back in those days, certainly some of them were separatists also. But I’m not aware that I met any of them. It was language activists I was mixing with.
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I’m sitting here gobsmacked, since you attacked Technicolour with this:
“For a person who has being spouting off about being enriched by different cultures and cultural comprehension, you demonstrate considerable levels of bigotry and ignorance about the island you are presumably living on …”
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and when she asked “why don’t you just explain where you think I have got it wrong?” your reply was, “Thats strange, i don’t recall seeing you around”.
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Extraordinary.
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I’m going to bed.
This did all seemed to be kicked off provocatively. When it gets to the point that groups of people are lumped, stereotyped and devalued im alarmed.
Mark
Create our own ‘flow’ eh?
The labelling of herself by Mrs Thatcher and her conservative cronies as ‘Reformist’ was the start of what is now an all-encompassing system of spin in public debate. She was actually an ultra reactionary, whose main agenda was to put the rights for working people that had been fought for by Chartists and socialists and indeed communists- back in its bottle.
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To me there is only one source of ‘flow’, which is the word of God as found in the Gospel, the Taurat, the psalms and the Qur’an. That ultimate command from God to care for others and tell the truth, to honour all life and to worship God. Everything else than that is using the slogans, often religious slogans, to oppose the ‘flow’ of His guidance and bolster the path of Shaytan, the devil.
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The battle in Syria, in my eyes, is none other than a Reformation taking place inside Islam between a kind of Catholic, formulaic religion in which the formulae are obviously different to Roman Catholic rituals, but the effect is the same, which is to allow the person to continue to avoid the challenge of nGod to men, to do good and be rewarded for it in Heaven, instead of doing evil and being selfish , by following certain formulaic rituals which generate automatic forgiveness, just as Mailer Daemon replies to your failed emails.
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The Middle Eastern Muslim leaders were in my witness some of the cleanest, partly because they were given no atom of a chance to deviate into their own agenda from the pure teaching of the Qur’an. The Saudi rulers, the bought jihadists, the corrupt leaders of the West, have come together to protect their out of date, reactionary, formulaic version of Islam. Of course they present it as sexy, Jihadi, tough, and new. But it isn’t.
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It’s a system of hierarchy, political ball-kicking, top-down religion which our Western political leaders desperately and urgently want to promote to stem the massive increase worldwide in literacy in and knowledge of the message of God. And the thing is that God is in charge of His own message, and reactionary forces are not. Post Libya, most Muslims are now looking back at the collusion of Osama bin Laden with George Bush, and the years of bloodshed that have followed in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq, as a disaster. A disaster that means that the betrayal has to stop.
The moderating machine has swallowed my comment twice.
Technicolour
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Not quite sure why you’re misrepresenting what I said to Suhayl, although I do see now in very stark relief what Clark was saying earlier.
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Perhaps you’d care to explain how my statement:
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“I agree with what you say about the present and relatively recent past in terms of the contribution made by more recent immigrants to this country.”
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is translated by you into:
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“‘oh, the ones who came here recently; they’re alright’ (Herbie)”
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I really do think you’re seeing things that aren’t there, hence the current confusion.
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I’d suggest you look for wholes rather than parts. Believe me, it’s much more satisfying.
The hasty comments have a habit of revealing the person behind the shell, if that shell exists. Certainly the exchanges are revealing and what stands out is Clark’s transparency – I have no time for shells that attempt to hide a hollow personality.
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We are tolerant in Britain, generally we adapt and accept. That balance is obvious on this and most CM threads and is genuine, in fact more so than America, the so called first and best example of a multicultural society. Personally I am not a great lover of a strong national identity. Powell was a man of prescience who realised the gathering abrasion of immigration. His views were in the majority which I remember bought the Conservatives into power.
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In the later life it appeared to me the ‘rivers of blood’ had dried up and he became a man I could relate to, a man who lived and died with the uniform of war, yet inside that cloth was a man of peace who described the so called alliance between Britain and America as the worlds policemen as, “without using terms derived from psychiatry, a notion having so few points of contact with reality.”
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If only our so called political
slavesleaders had taken onboard those perfect words of wisdom our own moral sense would be in much better shape today.Nuid – Maybe you didn’t quite get the point about nationalism and separatism not having to be synonymous.
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Your sitting there gobsmacked? Techicolour demonstrated tremendous ignorance about the political and cultural situation of Britain when he/she said “I imagine that a very few Welsh people burnt down a few British second houses because a) they were pissed off by the British attacking them centuries before b) they resented houses standing empty c) they were nationalist separatists d) they were violently sad and bored – or a combination of all of them”
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If the term ‘British’ technically means anyone who has, or now lives in Britain,then this technically means,according to Technicolour that the Welsh were attacking themselves. Regardless of your views on whether you see yourself as British or English,Welsh,Scottish (or all), this just demonstrates historical and cultural ignorance, which is what Techicolour has apparently been trying to fight against in his/her posts.
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There is nothing wrong or ‘dirty’ for commentators to mean England when they say ‘this country’ – just stop casually interchanging it with the whole island of Britain and all its constituent countries.
🙁 hurumph
“..the term ‘British’ technically means anyone who has, or now lives in Britain,then this technically means,according to Technicolour that the Welsh were attacking themselves. Regardless of your views on whether you see yourself as British or English,Welsh,Scottish (or all), this just demonstrates historical and cultural ignorance
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That demonstrates a single lexical error, and how you can construct a charge of ignorance.
“Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of us – millions – have settled happily abroad.”
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Us, us? This is a benefit which only accrues to, can only be used by and is only apparent to those with some considerable disposable income to meet necessary costs: property; transport; paperwork; bureaucracy and with which to cushion them, sustain them in their new location. For others, they would be in a desperate position, similar to many arriving here, requiring and desiring and hopefully obtaining no more than they need to establish and themselves and try to eke out an existence, consistent with human dignity, equality with the existing population in entitlement when in distressed circumstances. For most this island is prison.
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We all remember disgust at the various celebs who’ve more for attention-seeking purposes declared to a disinterested public, if X get elected or Y takes place, I’m off. Good riddance. Most of them didn’t infact leave or quickly returned to milk the public for misplaced adulation and to empty their pockets in perpetuity, though the doom event had transpired, but they had that option through being obscenely well off, that escape option is not universally available and few with the idealism to imagine a little utopia here, despite inertia and every obstacle strewn along the way would not wish to leave, walk away from a challenge that needs all pulling together. Plebeian types of a racist or bigoted indoctrination once went to Australia or South Africa perhaps, waving their little union jacks and telling all in earshot how the old country has long gone to the dogs. Probably now most of what was the white minority of SA are actually over here, competing for the last ten years just as much for the same begrudged stale crumbs as trickles down to the rest of us.
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In an ideal world without tyranny, capitalism, inculcated division, wars, superpower serving terrorism … no religion too … in which everybody could lead happy and fulfilled lives wherever they happen to be, there would still be flows of people of course.
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The thing might be that some people see the UK as a safe haven in troubled times, which has in modern history been perceived as a tolerant lawful place, governments until Thatcher not widely exposed as the distasteful ideological and rapacious despots they had always been and remain, except to those already under its heel; which had come through crises such as world wars, when many abroad thought we were finished and is still on the scene, now carefully massaging abroad its mythology and with its establishment history writers prerogative to filter all through the rose-tint lenses, claiming progress whilst the real situation gets impossibly worse. Gandhi’s greatest and perhaps only misjudgement was determining Britain was finished mid-ww2, and he might still have been right in that it was finished as an exploitative Empire on a grand or global scale, his view was shared by many, even the troubled Palestinians who hoped for their sake the runaway terrorising, devouring Zionist Homeland project would incidentally be halted, though such power had already slipped away, win or lose. The problem is that us locals know now, it is finished, is a busted flush, there are no rabbits to pull out of the hat, it was nothing special, simply an efficient workhouse on a national scale, that broke its people on a mighty wheel, state enforced servitude for the engorgment of already bloated capitalist and aristocratic elites.
Herbie writes:
Perhaps you’d care to explain how my statement:
“I agree with what you say about the present and relatively recent past in terms of the contribution made by more recent immigrants to this country.”
is translated by you into:
“‘oh, the ones who came here recently; they’re alright’ (Herbie)”
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It seems to be a plain rewording prefaced by “oh” as a pattern of speech to signify recall, the only shift in meaning is ‘relatively recent past’ becomes ‘recently’.
herbie & tech: Reading again i see how it could be a ‘neutral’ statement (in the field of charges surrounding)
Seems very fine Cryptonym!
Alas.. “The problem is that us locals know now, it is finished, is a busted flush, there are no rabbits to pull out of the hat”
The hard news is seething at the moment, but there must be rabbits.
“That demonstrates a single lexical error, and how you can construct a charge of ignorance”
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..do expound
“can one use a tactic without realising it?”
– Absolutely you can, just by making a conscious decision to write in a particular way for the sake of effect. It’s fair to assume that a sudden change in argument style reflects a reasoned decision (as opposed to a spontaneous personality transformation). There are more precise words than “tactic” for this phenomenon but the relevant dialectical jargon is very technical (and much of it’s in Latin). My enquiry about whether there was a learned method being applied was a genuine query, not an insinuation. I’m aware of classes teaching how to respond verbally to bullies (whether physical and virtual), and if there are similar classes about how to defuse racist propaganda (which I think would be a good idea) I’d like to know about them. (I teach related topics and am interested in how other people apply these techniques and on what basis.) If, as it seems, it’s because of the moderator’s advice, then that answers my question well enough.
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For the record, if someone is being deliberately offensive (as is often the case here) there are various ways to respond: you can ignore the person completely; you can be offended and respond in kind; you can refuse the offence and bounce the attitude back in a more explicit way; or you can reframe the interaction – as Clark was suggesting in effect. If you’re familiar with Transactional Analysis, you’ll know what I’m talking about. I think Suhayl was probably attempting to reframe and he did it pretty well all told, but there were noticeable elements of sarcasm (e.g. “Or are those brands of ale?”) and some loaded questions. This mixes in elements of child and parent roles, which invite their complements and sustain further squabbling. Itemising questions and reiterating them continually is a parental behaviour, which doesn’t facilitate the productive exchange of ideas. It tends to frustrate people to the point where they disengage completely. (Perhaps that’s the intention, but I don’t think it should be.)
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As the debates on this blog grow, it’s easy to spot some recognisable patterns. But sometimes they take unexpected twists or fractal complexities, and sometimes they spontaneously resolve. I’m interested in these natural dynamics of argumentation as much as the arguments themselves, and I learn from them. This blog is freer than most because of the anonymity and the light moderation, and I sincerely hope it stays that way. FWIW, I think Mark Golding has taken a very level and balanced tone (as the moderators normally do). Nonetheless, it often takes an agitator to provoke the pearls of wisdom. This debating dynamic is very productive – except when it becomes openly fallacious (e.g. ad hominem attacks).
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I’ve witnessed parental ‘tactics’ (or ‘modes of engagement’) killing off interesting dialogues in other contexts (and have been equally guilty of same), and I’d prefer that it didn’t happen here. What’s more, Komodo has an agile mind and a sharp tongue (poison notwithstanding) and I’d rather he wasn’t muzzled. But that’s just my view. I may stir things up a bit from time to time, but it’s not for me to dictate moderating policy. That burden falls on other shoulders.
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If this seems like intellectual mumbo-jumbo or voyeurism, just ignore it. Maybe it’s out of place. I apologise to Suhayl for any perceived insult, and I’ll go back to
lurkingobserving.http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/earth-hails-successful-mars-invasion-2012080637126
Guano’s comment (12:37 am) has now been released from the queue. It was not visible when Cryptonym posted (2:11 am):
It seems to me that Cryptonym was rejecting the sort of religion that Guano described as “formulaic”. Formulaic religion is of course a form of tyranny; how can your heart follow God-goodness-love if your head has to follow a sheet of rules?
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I added this note as a clarification, for it could otherwise read as if Cryptonym was deliberately contradicting Guano. I suspect that they actually agree quite closely in moral terms.
I drove from the Midlands to Wales, to Devon, Dorset, Somerset, Wiltshire and back and I didn’t see a single rabbit. By the way the economy seems to be picking up, by the number of text messages from agencies looking for electricians, which has virtually stopped since 2008. The buzzards, kites, and CEOs are all looking unusually fat.
I just watched a great 45 minute doco about Wikileaks and the current situation with Assange’s Swedish case. I really recommend people check it out, it covers the major points and it is very balanced. You can stream the whole thing from the ABC website.
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Sex, Lies and Julian Assange: abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/07/19/3549280.htm
From an Australian perspective, this whole debate has surprised me a lot. After looking at the numbers, the worry about preserving UK culture seem unfounded in my eyes. 11% of the UK population was born somewhere else, compared to 27% Australia wide or the 36% of my hometown Melbourne, I just don’t see what the fuss is about. Melbourne has the world’s third largest Greek-speaking population after Athens and Thessaloniki (Melbourne’s Greek sister city), and the Vietnamese surname Nguyen is the second most common in Melbourne’s phone book. Yet Greek and Vietnamese are no threat to the English language or the English culture, they only add valuable cultural dimensions to Australia.
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For a long time (and even to this day) Australia had a bad reputation for racism, and it was certainly a massive problem. However I think a lot of this was born from the fact that because of our geographic position, Australians had to grapple with the idea that ‘white’ would not necessarily remain the dominant ethnicity. It was a long process, but now ethnicity plays a relatively minor role in the Australian concept of nationhood. I think the UK and Europe are only really just starting to deal with these ideas. I remember talking with some Swedish friends, and they took great pains to point out that another mutual friend of ours was not Swedish. This non-Swede was Dutch born and had been living in Sweden for only(?!?) two decades. I was really taken aback by how narrow their definition of Swedish was.
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Clark:
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I think you make a mistake to raise the issue of English threatening the Welsh language in context of the debate surrounding immigration into the UK. The situations are not comparable because in the Welsh situation, English culture is clearly in a position of dominance. The people immigrating to the UK are not coming from countries that are politically or culturally more powerful than the UK. It strikes me as inconceivable that immigrants are going to replace the English language with something else. English is pretty much the default language across the globe. Has anyone ever met a second generation immigrant (first generation to be born in the UK) who couldn’t speak fluent English?
Herbie – I’ll come back to you on the Olympic Opening show, am rushing right now, please be patient. Thanks.
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Nextus, it would be really good if Komodo would consider the possibility of responding to my seven questions. Let’s forget for just a moment about me and my possible motivations, hang-ups and biopsychosocial pathologies (“passive-aggressive”, “bullying”, “stoic” or whatever), or whether I might be drawing on a “manual” or am part of some great dialectical behavioural therapy conspiracy. Let’s just assume for the moment that I am ‘mad’. Yet the fact is, the questions remain, unanswered.
Three short essays on the rise of the modern Olympics and the previous attempts by workers to create their own version.
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Another Olympics is possible: the socialist sports movements of the past
http://links.org.au/node/2976
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One interesting point within if you had any doubt that there is a fascist link to the modern games. I did not know that Samaranch was connected to Franco.
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‘IOC consolidates – Once the fascists took over in Spain, one of their leaders was none other than Juan Antonio Samaranch, who assisted Franco as governor of the Barcelona region and who was president of the IOC from 1980 to 2004.’
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There is also this rhyme which has relevance to the current subject of discussion here.
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’Tis right as England beat the rest
Of Europe and the world at all things
That so her sports should be the best
And England first in great and small things
No German, Frenchman or Fijee can ever master cricket, sir
Because they haven’t got the pluck to stand before the wicket, sir
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Living as we do, in this strange time known as “London 2012”, this popular rhyme from late 19th century Britain might sound all too familiar to many Weekly Worker readers currently up to their necks in state-sponsored Olympic fever. Of course, the BBC and other media outlets will now speak of “Britain”, not “England”, and the “Britain first” agenda no longer deploys terms like “Fijee”. But nonetheless, the media offensive has an all-too-obvious focus: British medals, British pluckiness and British pride. In these times of depression and austerity, the nation — black, white, rich, poor — should “unite as one” against the others.
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PS Hope Craig’s blog does not meet the same fate of the Oozlum Bird!
I didn’t notice at the time, but I think one important point is demonstrated here:
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Nuid suggested:
If you find it personally entertaining to aggravate those who are passionate about certain issues, rather than debating in a sincere fashion, I suggest you take your nasty shitstirring somewhere else.
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Some sensitive souls, and I am of course not one of these, might take that as meaning:
We don’t want your sort round here: fuck off back to where you came from.
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Even insensitive souls might note the conceptual similarity…
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I’m afraid Nuid and Technicolor seem to be using identical tactics and singing from the same hymnsheet, so an agenda is indicated – Clark, I agree.
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I’m delighted to see that this knotty issue can be faced and discussed, however. That was the intention of my original post.
Suhayl, I had no wish to offend you specifically, but I did want to shake up the discussion here, which occasionally gets rather too cosy in its assumptions.
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As Clark says, my interests include the ME, and one area in particular where….deep breath…replacement of the long-term inhabitants and their culture is being conducted without any effective controls. By completely alien people who once had relatives in the region, who are claiming a right of return. This I oppose.
I’ll maybe get round to your other questions at some point – time is limited – but re. “Real Locals”…
For the sake of argument, I’ve been trying to present the case as seen by the guy in the pub who doesn’t agree with the liberal consensus. He regards himself as really British. He regards a third-generation Pakistani-origin Briton as a wog. He’s a bit of a cunt, really. When I lived in a small Scottish community, someone like him (whose parents had emigrated from the place to Glasgow before he was born) used to return to the family holiday cottage with his revolting children, and describe himself – and them as Real Locals.
I used the term with ironic intent.