It is a terrible thing if any US diplomats have been killed in Libya, as now appears likely. My condolences to the families of all affected. They add to the thousands of deaths in Libya, and one can only hope that finally some of the proponents of “liberal intervention” will realise that bombing people into democracy is not a viable policy.
But part of the responsibility for these deaths lies with the US and Israeli far right activists who made a film insulting Islam, with precisely the intention of provoking a spiral of violence. There are many interest groups longing to promote a perpetual climate of war and fear; some of them, like these filmmakers, are easier to identify than others.
Be it attacks on US diplomats in Libya or drone strikes on villagers in Yemen, it is all part of the same hateful cycle of violence – from which fortunes have been made in the arms, mercenary and security industries, and which climate of hatred has given cover and unflinching western support for resource grabs by Israeli illegal settlers.
So many people have poisoned what should be a beautiful world. The deaths of US diplomats in Libya get noticed. The evryday deaths of so many others in this manufactured conflict do not.
Feeling insulted does not enable you to lay the blame on someone else. The blame should be placed squarely on the head of those responsible for the murder.
If I had murdered the people I felt insulted myself or my Deism views, world population would be a lot lower! Not sure the judge sentencing me would blame anyone except me either.
It appears these days you have to be a druggie, convict or religious for others to give you an excuse for your actions.
Yes well. Out of a clear blue sky that one, eh.
It’s amazing the number of posters who seem to have absolutely no contextual sense whatsoever.
What is that. Is it like some sort of mental problem or something.
I was going to say, you know who you are, but obviously you won’t.
When the Guardian runs a daily blog, I run up the false flag. Not a log going on in those videos on Youtube, just a building on fire. Reminds me of February 2011. Is there any reason to believe the official story? None at all.
There seems to be conflicting media coverage as to who actually financed the Muhammad movie. CNN Europe this morning said it was Egyptian Costs, while e.g. the SF Chronicle reports that there were donations from some 100 Jews, which seems far more credible. Why On earth would Egyptians finance an islamophobic movie directed by a US Israeli right-winger? Is CNN trying to ignite something?
Watcher, et al
Good to hear what “your” feelings are on the matter? And how you would have coped given your values were insulted? Commendable as these sentiments may prove, alas this has fuck all to do with the people who are doing the killing and are being incited to behave thus; through calculated and measured actions of a bunch of lunatics, resident outside of the theatre of engagements.
Therefore, it will be of help for you to understand; we are not debating you and your feelings, in fact more to the point, you and and your feelings are of no relevance to the debate under way.
I fail to see how the US and Israel can be held to account for the ranting of one perverse individual; unless it can be proved he was backed by the CIA/Mossad (in which case I’d have expected better production values). Furthermore however bad and provocative the film it in no way justifies such a dreadful response. However distasteful the man’s views might be he was exercising his right to freedom of expression. Would we be happier if the US government began to censor Youtube just because some hotheads can’t handle that?
I see Channel 4 has been intimidated into not screening a (different) documentary that dared to be critical of Mohammed. Where is this going to end?
The ‘Mohammed movie’ device is just that. A bit like ‘the UK riots were due to kids wanting the latest phones and trainers’.
On Hillsborough Cameron said it was ‘very wrong’ for the police to repeatedly lie. Are there no laws? Also, his chums at News International led the disinformation campaign against the victims, how about censuring them as well? And lets not forget that inhuman scab-monster that led the country at the time. String ’em up.
The good people of Liverpool still proudly refuse to buy The Sun, even after Murdoch’s flesh creeping front-page apology some years ago.
josef,
Perish the thought that the ziofuckwits in CNN are trying to kill two birds with one stone: incite and get the Egyptians fighting each other, whilst Libya is firmly put back on the table for another round of democracy.
Interestingly both countries are Muslims now that is strange isn’t it????
Kempe
What did the good rabbi say on C4?
“One cannot run into a theatre and shout; “fire”, “fire”, and call it exercise of “freedom of expression”.
As for the rest of the stuff; “do bears shit in the woods” tautology obtains.
From
http://www.moonofalabama.org/
Last year Chris Stevens was very active in helping the Salafist rabble from Benghazi to overthrow the Libyan government:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-envoy-arrives-in-libya-to-help-opposition-fighters/2011/04/05/AFTIV6lC_story.html
Chris Stevens, a former U.S. Embassy official in Tripoli and the highest-ranking U.S. representative to travel to Libya since the uprising began, will explore ways to open the funding spigots for an opposition movement that is desperately short of cash and supplies, a State Department spokesman said Tuesday.
“We’re well aware that there’s an urgency,” spokesman Mark Toner told reporters. “The Transitional National Council does need funding if it’s to survive, and we’re looking for ways to assist them.”
When the job to overthrow and kill Gaddhafi was done Stevens was named U.S. ambassador to Libya.
Last night he was killed by exactly those lunatics, who are a disgrace to Islam, Gaddhafi had warned of and had kept under tight control.
Why is it the far right filmakers why not the hard left.
If your on the right means your raciially conscious that doesny make you a racist it makes you a racialist.
God forbid why would someone want to promote war and violence that would see many pf your fellows killed.
Each to their own so to speak. The european new right does mot want too neccesate anything which would conclude in violence and oppression .
we want to secure a peaceful future for everyone get it…
@passerby, you might be on the right track.
There is a typo in my previous comment. it should read Egyptian Copts, not costs. Sorry
This is Miliband’s new treasury adviser, Nicholas Tott of Herbert Smith lawyers, who has proposed a business bank. Note his PFI and PPP credentials. Minted.
Nicholas is a consultant in Herbert Smith’s corporate division. His practice comprises all forms of projects work with particular emphasis on asset and project finance and Private Finance Initiative (PFI) and public private partnership (PPP) projects. He was seconded to the Private Finance Panel Executive for a period of 15 months where he was responsible for PFI projects in Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Ministry of Defence. He is the co-author of The PFI Handbook (Jordans), a leading text on PFI.
Credentials
HM Treasury and Partnerships UK in connection with the establishment of the latter the
Ministry of Defence on the redevelopment of its headquarters (Main Building) in Whitehall on a PFI basis
The Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi on its debt financing of the HM Customs & Excise IT project, the first externally financed PFI IT project
Bromley Hospitals NHS Trust on a new acute general hospital at Farnborough Common Kent, provided on a PFI basis
London Underground Limited on its PFI and PPP contracts
Transport for London on the upgrade and extension of the East London Line, a key transport link for the 2012 Olympics
Transport for London and London Underground Limited on the PPP administration of the two Metronet Tube PPP companies and the subsequent acquisition of part of their respective undertakings from the PPP administrators
http://www.herbertsmith.com/People/NicholasTott.htm
Are not in favor of freedom of speech? Why cant whoever make a film insulting a religion? You can insult anybody and can not insult a religion?
“But part of the responsibility for these deaths lies with the US and Israeli far right activists who made a film insulting Islam”.
The responsibility for those deaths lies with the assassins!Do not try do defend assassins, whoever they are.
Passerby, my comments were related to Mr Murray’s original post which states “But part of the responsibility for these deaths lies with the US and Israeli far right activists who made a film insulting Islam,”, which is his view on the subject. At which point where you appointed to tell people what they can and cannot reply here, let alone they may not post their own view?
Using your own logic you could say that it is the fault of Iraqi/Afghan civilians that many were murdered by American troops due to a random US flag burner inciting them to do so.
We all know there is propaganda from all sides intended to cause conflict. No need to state the obvious.
People need to stop feeling insulted over nothing. Oh wow, someone burnt a koran or a countries flag. So what? Neither of those actions have killed anyone. So using them as an excuse to kill someone, along with apologists blaming entire countries is just wrong.
If you know a film is critical of your chosen superstition and will upset you, why would you choose to watch it?
Some sections of Islam do seem to be incredibly think skinned when to comes to satire or criticism of their religion. Can you imagine the reaction to an Islamic Life of Brian?
There is no excuses acceptable for violent retribution to perceived offence. Secular liberals should speak out and not appease this behaviour.
Watcher et al
“People need to stop feeling insulted over nothing.”
How about not insulting people in the first place?
Iraqi/Afghan civilians that many were murdered by American troops due to a random US flag burner inciting them to do so.
US goes around killing people, regardless of the flag burning, anyone who is deemed to be “al kaiday” based on the feeling in the water of any number of officials, and these are legion apparently.
with apologists blaming entire countries is just wrong.
Sound idea, best stop being an apologists for the ziofuckwits, pronto.
Francisco: Freedom of speech is fine, of course – but you’d be a fool not to watch where that speech is exercised! If people in a region have been demonised, their governments overturned, their brothers and sisters had their neighbouring countries basically destroyed etc. etc. for years, and then you go in there and rub their noses in it further by insulting their religion, what do you expect?
If it’s not enough to destroy a country and kill thousands, you’ve then got to go along and tell them it’s all their fault because their god sucks. You expect anyone to take that sort of thing sitting down? I’d be pretty ticked off, and as far as I’m concerned ALL religions suck, every last one of them ludicrous yet deadly fairy tales. Don’t think it would be wise for me to make a film telling people in a destroyed country that and wave it in their faces, however, if I knew what was good for me or those around me.
No matter how provocative the film, these people are still murders. They had a choice. They chose violence. To suggest anything otherwise is to rob them of their free will and their humanity. Their actions where not only wrong but counter-productive. The west would have a much harder time justifying their wars if people would stop handing them excuses (though I’m sure it wouldn’t stop them.) They are all dancing to the West’s tune. We will not succeed in making this world a better place until we condemn and resist all violence, no matter the reason for it. Otherwise the cycle will just continue.
Slightly off topic,but a friend told me that an aquaintance of his who is fluent in Arabic and knowledgeable of the ME has already secured a job with a US company in the reconstruction of Syria.There is a master plan.
Passerby, you obviously have a hard time grasping the principal being explained or your own biased hate for America and Israel (your last reply was a dead giveaway) has blinded you anything that contradicts this.
Love the life of Brian comparison! How many christians used that as an excuse to KILL non-believers, the producers and the actors? No deaths meant not apologists too!
For the record Passerby, I despise the American government and their foreign policies. Bush and Blair should be arrested and charged with war crimes.
It only everyone could think independently of their preconceived bias…
“People need to stop feeling insulted over nothing. Oh wow, someone burnt a koran or a countries flag. So what? Neither of those actions have killed anyone”.
Oh wow, someone said that women in short skirts are asking to be raped. Oh wow, someone said that black people are all thick and savage. Oh wow, someone said it might be a good idea to investigate whether men are more naturally talented at math than women. Oh wow, someone said that homosexuality is an abominable sin against nature.
Try saying a few of those things in our ultra-tolerant, ultra-civilised, non-violent society. See what happens to you.
Most people in “the West” have decided that religion isn’t important enough to fight about. (Although quite a lot of Americans seem to feel that because their religion is better and their God is “bigger”, it doesn’t matter what happens to people who follow other religions).
However, many Muslims do believe passionately that religion does matter. I don’t for a moment justify their use of violence, but I can understand it. And anyone with any intelligence and cultural sensitivity would try to avoid trampling on their beliefs, as Craig suggested.
‘Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide the lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as “empty,” “meaningless,” or “dishonest,” and scorn to use them. No matter how “pure” their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best’.
– Robert A. Heinlein
I can’t think of the correct adjective to describe Michael White. He secretly admires and supports Bliar here and previously. I would like to wipe the smile off White’s face.
Tony Blair gives his enemies the slip again
The ex-PM leads a double life as tanned deal-maker and fugitive from justice – but don’t expect him in court soon
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2012/sep/12/tony-blair-enemies-slip-again
Ahh NON ! I saw mention of the dreaded and dreadful Bernard-Henri Lévy above. Please do not mention that horrible pseudo-philospher again or I shall be forced to cancel my subscription to this otherwise excellent blog!
Tom, that is half the point. The things you are stated are not true so why get upset if you heard someone say that? Why not just laugh at how stupid they are?
If everyone was more laid back and did not take things to heart, the world would be such a better place.
Watcher: If everyone was more laid back and did not take things to heart, the world would be such a better place.
Very true, but that’s not what we find among people who actually believe in and live their religion throughout all aspects of their existence. Very few people do this in the West – “Cafeteria Christians” just pick and choose which parts of the Bible they like as and when it suits them. It’s jolly convenient that the Bible is so riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions, because just about anything can be chosen or dropped as a principle (apart from “Thou shalt not kill”, which a lot of Christians have a hard time getting their heads around).
Muslims, on the other hand, have an internally consistent single document on which their lives should be based. To insult their religion so grossly is to offend not just their god, but every aspect and principle by which they live, together with that of all fellow Muslims. What good could possibly come from doing this, apart from to whip up hatred and fear from ignorant Westerners (particularly Americans, who are terrified of their own shadows in the first place) ?
Is this a gesture or for real?
MEPs vote for action on complicity in rendition, torture
September 11, 2012 – 3:57pm By Andy Carling
http://www.neurope.eu/article/meps-vote-action-complicity-rendition-torture
Glenn, I agree with you to some extent. I just don’t think that freedom of speech should be stifled because someone says it upsets them.
I don’t doubt the intentions or motivations behind the film in the article, in the same way I don’t doubt the same for the beheading videos that have been made. Both times however it is a small group of people involved. Directing violence at anyone not involved makes no sense. I can see however how one of these videos could upset someone but not the other.
Culture or not, there is no excuse for killing someone like this.