It is a terrible thing if any US diplomats have been killed in Libya, as now appears likely. My condolences to the families of all affected. They add to the thousands of deaths in Libya, and one can only hope that finally some of the proponents of “liberal intervention” will realise that bombing people into democracy is not a viable policy.
But part of the responsibility for these deaths lies with the US and Israeli far right activists who made a film insulting Islam, with precisely the intention of provoking a spiral of violence. There are many interest groups longing to promote a perpetual climate of war and fear; some of them, like these filmmakers, are easier to identify than others.
Be it attacks on US diplomats in Libya or drone strikes on villagers in Yemen, it is all part of the same hateful cycle of violence – from which fortunes have been made in the arms, mercenary and security industries, and which climate of hatred has given cover and unflinching western support for resource grabs by Israeli illegal settlers.
So many people have poisoned what should be a beautiful world. The deaths of US diplomats in Libya get noticed. The evryday deaths of so many others in this manufactured conflict do not.
This so called film is clearly work of Mossad
Read Victor Ostrowsky (ex Mossad case officer) “The other side of deception” for the operating details how they antagonize extremist in the Muslim world for thir benefits
There is no need to answer Cui Bono this time and many times before
“There is no justification for this attack…, etc”
A perfect example of the problem here, which is not, as many would have us believe, a Clash of Civilizations, but rather how two mindsets deal differently with the predicament of the Human Condition, so differently in fact, that they cannot comprehend each other. For Muslims, their faith is not just sacred, it is their entire existence; it was why they believe they were born, it is how they believe they need to live, it’s what they believe awaits them after their time on Earth; anything & everything else is of comparatively little importance, especially modern foreign concepts like “freedom of speech”. In the West, from the “Age of Enlightenment”, Religion has gradually been replaced by Reason & Science, whereas Muslims have instead embraced within Islam, these two apparently, for Westerners, non-religious friendly doctrines. A Westerner who considers himself “enlighten”, ie governed by the intellectual logic of Reason & Science, dismisses all religious beliefs as “Man in the Sky Fairy Tales”, because neither Reason or Science can prove any religious beliefs as being true, yet for anybody with strong religious beliefs, Muslim or not, this inability or lack of proof, is actual vindication, because the fundamental essence of all religion is the Divine Mystery , the Unknowable Mind of God, the Mystical, which is incomprehensible to humans, unless revealed by Divine Intervention. So paradoxically Reason & Science act as reassuring vindicators for the majority of modern westerners who have little or no religious faith, and also acts as reassuring vindicators for people who do have strong religious faith, which includes the majority of Muslims; so essentially, one mindset seeks a rational explanation for the Human Condition, whereas the other mindset accepts that there is no rational explanation.
To relate this back to what happened in Benghazi, to those that have little or no religious faith, they give paramount importance to the Reason derived notion of “freedom of speech”, and simply cannot begin to comprehend the reaction of people confronted with a threat to the utmost paramount importance, & indeed only consideration, of why & how they actually exist; those that seek rational expectations from people whose whole existence revolves around the belief of the supremacy of accepting Irrationality, are themselves being irrational.
“how two mindsets deal differently with the predicament of the Human Condition, so differently in fact, that they cannot comprehend each other.”
That’s as helpful an insight as saying Cro-Magnons had a different mindset from their contemporaries the Neanderthals. The competitive anger between the two resulted in a propitious and well-defined cultural, intellectual and evolutionary end-game.
I would note that it wasn’t “American and Israeli activists”.
It turns out that it’s rabidly Islamophobic members of the Egyptian Coptic Christian expat community.
Truth be told my tinfoil-hat-sense says that this was run as a Republican false flag operation for domestic political reasons, but YMMV.
I would also note that it was Sarkozy and Cameron who were the drivers for the intervention, with the US taking the “lead” because the Pentagon was terrified that the Europeans might show themselves capable of doing this by themselves.
Also in Libya, as in Syria, we cannot ignore the machinations of the House of Saud, which intends to overthrow every nominally non-sectarian government in the Arab World.
Rings true to me-
http://www.jewishjournal.com/bloggish/item/5_reasons_jews_didnt_make_the_anti_mohammed_video
It was utter crap, by all accounts. I don’t think even Mossad would want to be part of it.
“Yup…here it comes WWIII…Christians v Muslims !”
Great. I hope they both lose.
Macky: To relate this back to what happened in Benghazi, to those that have little or no religious faith, they give paramount importance to the Reason derived notion of “freedom of speech”, and simply cannot begin to comprehend the reaction of people confronted with a threat to the utmost paramount importance, & indeed only consideration, of why & how they actually exist; those that seek rational expectations from people whose whole existence revolves around the belief of the supremacy of accepting Irrationality, are themselves being irrational.
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Yes, the people who were burning and murdering are irrational. Thanks. We know that. But please don’t give us this nonsense that non-Westerners can’t understand Reason and Science. It’s highly ethnocentric and it is offensive to Muslims who don’t want to be commanded about by intolerant bigots. Unfortunately when things like this happen, many people here seem to think that the most aggressive, intolerant and foam-flecked men who seek out things to be offended by so that they can throw violent and murderous wobblies are the true representatives of Islam. Oddly enough, this puts you in agreement with people like the EDL and other anti-Muslim bigots who also think that Muslims are violent and irrational people who will, to use Suhayl Saadi’s apt metaphor, come slobbering whenever Dr. Pavlov rings his bell.
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By the way, one thing that people who try to show the invalidity of Reason always do is make an argument that looks like it is resting on the fundamental premise that Reason IS valid. You throw out Reason at your peril.
Komodo: It was utter crap, by all accounts. I don’t think even Mossad would want to be part of it
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I tried watching it. It is abysmal. I can’t believe this cost any amount of money to make let alone all these allegations that The Jews MUST HAVE had 100s of donors to put it together. It is laughably bad and only about 11 minutes long.
“You missed my post Jammy Dodgers. You said, ‘Netanyahu offered Putin his choice of future Syrian leader while trying to cut a deal to get Russia to support a no-fly zone.’ Have you a link for that buddy?”
Uh, what post?
http://mycatbirdseat.com/2012/08/orwellian-ramifications-begin-to-unfold-in-syria/
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=53542
The original source, had trouble finding it.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/07/30/israels-plan-for-syria/
Justin Raimondo argues that while Nakoula was involved in making the video, it wasn’t Coptic Christians who were the driving force behind it.
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2012/09/13/blowback-in-benghazi/
Greenwald takes Aaronovitch on.
Greenwald to Aaronovitch again
Posted by The Editors on September 13, 2012, 5:57 pm
‘@DAaronovitch The smear that @Medialens expressed or implied the view that “killing US embassy staff is cool” is a wretched falsehood’
https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/246276618266484736
This is the first time a high-profile journalist has repeatedly and publicly supported us against this kind of revolting smear. It really emphasises how silent everyone else has been/is (without doubt because they were afraid of being labelled ‘one of them’ to the detriment of their media careers).
DE
and following.
http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1347555437.html
I’m sorry but the ‘anger at movie’ line is just laughable. I really see no reason at all to take it seriously. Perhaps said movie was used to incite a mob by the usual provocateurs and infiltrators, but I can’t seriously believe the movie itself was responsible. This line just smacks of fairly obvious distraction tactics. Who really knows what securitat get up to, here or anywhere else? We may speculate with our favourite theories – personally I have it down as a failed oil\drug deal in a turf war – but this is kind of a zero-sum game. The facts speak plainly enough as it is: the US armed some fairly vicious gangsters, and it’s blown up in their faces, yet again. It always blows up in their faces. And they never learn.
This doesn’t mean I advocate invading embassies, or think that the US is solely responsible for these deaths. I mean, I kind of don’t even think I really should have to state this, it’s obvious, it’s a truism: the killers are responsible, and embassies are inviolable. But I guess I should just type it, so so as not to cause confusion. But the US still has to stop arming psychotics. I entirely fail to see how arming lunatics helps anybody at all. Totally beyond me.
Brendan, have a look here: http://mierleeu.blogspot.be/
No one murdered because of this image:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/
Nevermind: Consider this, the film is the event people expected during the Olympics, a deliberate flaming, inconsiderate and targeted, designed to whip up feelings and justify further war on terror, terror.
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Okay, I’ve considered it; it’s bollocks! Angrysoba…
After days of violence and bloodshed around the globe, its utter bollocks, totally off the beaten track?
Is it really?
There will be more of the same, soon, whence Israel decides to go to war and bless us with its fascist wisdom and all reaching deadly resolve, Annecy shows that this country are cowards, in their pockets, they get away with murder mayhem false flagging, rogue nuclear arsenals, torturing children in prison, using banned weapons on women and children, Apartheid housing policies, land grabs, pirates who murder on the High seas and in French forests,etc.etc.
Ben Franklin; “The competitive anger between the two resulted in a propitious and well-defined cultural, intellectual and evolutionary end-game”
That’s a bold & bald assertion, care to back it up ? The logical extension of this, is that the reaction that what we witnessing in the Islamic world at the moment, is just a sort of “competitive anger”, that will lead ultimately to a greater good for all; nice optimism, and no need to worry then !
@Unhappy Soba,
Either you have managed to get hold of the wrong end of the stick through basic miscomprehension, or you are deliberately misrepresenting by setting up a straw-man argument; contrary to what you state I made the point that Reason & Science have been integrated within & co-exist within, and indeed thrive, in the Islamic Faith; you don’t need to tell me about the Islamic contributions & achievements in the world of science, but it seems that I do need to tell you that not only was the irrationality mentality so dominant once in Western Europe, that people irrationally accepted to be tortured to death rather than even renounce one version of Christianity for another, and that you also need to be reminded that non-religious irrationality is still all the rage in the modern Western World, from belief in the delusion that “we are the Good Guys” , belief in the delusion of living under Democracies, belief that one’s vote can make a difference, that Global Warming is not happening, that Capitalism is the best system for human to live under, etc, not to mention the obvious ones such as belief in superstitions, to the popularity of horoscopes, fortune-telling etc, etc
Anyhow it seems that what I am saying in being repeated today in the News;
“Religion defines lives and is part of people’s identities in a way that secular Europeans forgot long ago.”
Jeremy Bowen BBC News
“Wissam Buhmeid, the commander of the Tripoli government-sanctioned Libya’s Shield Brigade, effectively a police force for Benghazi, maintained that it was anger over the Mohamed video which made the guards abandon their post. “There were definitely people from the security forces who let the attack happen because they were themselves offended by the film; they would absolutely put their loyalty to the Prophet over the consulate. The deaths are all nothing compared to insulting the Prophet.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/revealed-inside-story-of-us-envoys-assassination-8135797.html
Nevermind: After days of violence and bloodshed around the globe, its utter bollocks, totally off the beaten track?
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Your thesis that this was an operation dreamt up by the NWO meant to disrupt the Olympics? Yeah, totally off the beaten track; bollocks.
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And yes I know you didn’t actually use the term “NWO”, but by ommitting an agent you have left the rest of us to speculate who made this movie with the aim of furthering the “war on terror”. Don’t you think that some things are NOT explained by your cherished Grand Unified Crazy Conspiracy Theory?
Macky:but it seems that I do need to tell you that not only was the irrationality mentality so dominant once in Western Europe, that people irrationally accepted to be tortured to death rather than even renounce one version of Christianity for another, and that you also need to be reminded that non-religious irrationality is still all the rage in the modern Western World, from belief in the delusion that “we are the Good Guys” , belief in the delusion of living under Democracies, belief that one’s vote can make a difference, that Global Warming is not happening, that Capitalism is the best system for human to live under, etc, not to mention the obvious ones such as belief in superstitions, to the popularity of horoscopes, fortune-telling etc, etc
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“not only was the irrationality mentality…”
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You need a punchline.
@Unhappy Soba, take your pick, you can give yourself a Brownie point, a sherbet lemon, or a self-congratultory pat on the back for spotting a typo, should help to cheer you up, you sad sad person.
Some deep and very moving irony here.
9/12
http://bubbamuntzer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/912-in-solemn-ceremony-in-us-capital.html?showComment=1347612573419#c2265143674444150237
Macky: @Unhappy Soba, take your pick, you can give yourself a Brownie point, a sherbet lemon, or a self-congratultory pat on the back for spotting a typo, should help to cheer you up, you sad sad person.
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A typo is one thing; having absolutely no point to your rant is another. And by all means call me a “sad, sad person” if, in lieu of argument you have nothing else to fall back on. But, of course, you are already someone who triumphantly forsakes Reason so you aren’t likely to come up with any arguments anyway. 😉
Thanks for the link ‘Garibaldi’ to Israel Shamir’s critical exposure from a source close to Lieberman. Severing Syria’s ties to Iran does of course advance Israel’s plan to attack her nuclear sites with impunity from her corrupt guardians.
The video was amateurish or ‘crap’ much like the bin Laden look alike videos conjured to generate fear, this two bit soap opera was intended to generate religious fervor, passions on the boil.
Boiling passions provoke atrocities, the ideal trigger for intervention and conflict and a smokescreen to boot.
@Sad Soba, Well give yourself another Brownie point for sheer chutzpah; a person who responds to a reasoned point of view, by the troll like tactic of only picking up on a typo, and then pretends that there is no point to respond to, but only a meaningless rant, is clearly the one who is has forsaken Reason; poor show, Soba, go back to your saki, at least you’re entertaining, albeit in a rather pathetic way, when you are drunk.
Macky: Well give yourself another Brownie point for sheer chutzpah; a person who responds to a reasoned point of view, by the troll like tactic of only picking up on a typo, and then pretends that there is no point to respond to, but only a meaningless rant, is clearly the one who is has forsaken Reason;
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No, no. You misunderstand. I was wondering what the next clause would be given that you began with “not only”. I couldn’t really follow the rest of your “reasoned point of view” unfortunately because it seemed rambling and ungrammatical. But if you take another stab at it I would be happy to indulge you. 😉
Did Hague open the floodgates? Discuss.
More embassies. I hope Silly Hague is watching, and learns something. You do not a) threaten, b) give the appearance of threats to any embassy in the world. Because if you do, we’ll see much more of what we see today. Silly Hague isn’t personally responsible, but I have a nagging feeling that the UK’s actions over Assange have had a cameo role in the scenes we see today. Put it this way – the actions of the UK – reported world-wide – have not helped. At all.
Did Hague open the floodgates? Discuss.
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No. End of discussion.
Sad Soba; “No, no. You misunderstand. I was wondering what the next clause would be given that you began with “not only”. I couldn’t really follow the rest of your “reasoned point of view” unfortunately because it seemed rambling and ungrammatical. But if you take another stab at it I would be happy to indulge you.”
Being a kind generous sort of chap, I spell it out to you as if I was explaining the point to a complete idiot;
“but it seems that I do need to tell you that not only”
a) irrationality mentality dominant once in Western Europe
&
b) non-religious irrationality is still all the rage in the modern Western World
Got it now ? Good, now looking forward to your saki-free “indulgence”.
Yes, non-religious irrationality is popular everywhere. Horoscopes, alternative medicine, Pop Idol, wadical politics, supercilious theories about how Reason is no match for the Divine. Plenty of irrationality to go around.
“No. End of discussion.”
That’s not the end of a discussion; that’s a refusal to take part in one. A difference I’m sure you see.
The UK’s actions were seen world-wide. Silly Hague essentially disgraced himself. But, this means nothing? Maybe. I’m not so certain though.