The previous thread was overloading WordPress due to the number of comments. This thread has been opened to replace it.
Allowed HTML - you can use:
<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>
Another new link announcing yet another true crime docu-drama starting production in 2026:-
https://www.ledauphine.com/faits-divers-justice/2025/05/11/tuerie-de-chevaline-une-mini-serie-internationale-en-gestation-omar-sy-parmi-les-producteurs
Also see here:-
https://www.msn.com/fr-ch/actualite/other/tuerie-de-chevaline-s%C3%A9rie-%C3%A0-venir-omar-sy-dans-les-producteurs/ar-AA1EELXR?ocid=BingNewsSerp
Although dramatized, with fictional elements, it should at least help maintain the public profile and, who knows, prompt someone to call in a tip.
@ Good In Parts, I replied to your previous post
our posts have slid past each other.
michael
@michael norton
“For some time, it seemed to me that the French Authorities have been manipulating the Timeline.
Now why would they want/need to do that, if this slaughter in no way involved the French Authorities?”
There was, and still is, pressure towards convergence of accounts and elimination of inconsistencies in accounts. See my post below back from 2015.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/not-forgetting-the-al-hillis-continued/comment-page-170/#comment-566036
So, this convergence process, led and controlled by the gendarmes, went badly wrong in this case. Quite a lot of the fallout is not, in my view, ‘manipulation of the timeline’ in any purposeful, systematic and malign way but simply retrospective finger pointing for ass-coverage purposes.
Good In Parts
December 10, 2015 at 20:51
MN
LMC, as found, almost certainly is LMC as seen by ONF2.
Thay particular ‘special side-opening helmet’ was probably an interpretation error by the gendarmes.
However it is highly possible that a killer motorcyclist is still on the run.
The timeline is so tight that WBM is effectively LMC’s alibi.
But wait-a-minute, why then the arrest of Eric D ?
Do the gendarmes think that WBM saw a different motorcyclist?
Or is there something else that they are aware of that makes them think the killer rode a motorcycle?
possibly, the motorcyclist, is key.
possibly the “actual” motorcyclist was the actual shootist.
Perhaps, the actual motorcyclist was the rider, who transported the actual killer to Le Martinet.
These French Authorities, need to use their brains, they need to think from the beginning, they need to stop being blinkered.
How did the shootist get to Le Martinet?
How did the killer exit Le Martinet?
Follow the blood splatter.
It is almost as if, they have been told to discover nothing.
I see no ships because I am looking through my bline eye.
“Turning a blind eye is an idiom describing the ignoring of undesirable information”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_a_blind_eye
If we accept that five people were shot.
One shot, remains alive, as does her younger sister, who was not physically harmed.
The adults were shot multiple times, including head shots.
Somebody shot them.
It was claimed that William Brett Martin was the first person to come upon the scene of slaughter.
Quote Good In Parts
“The timeline is so tight that WBM is effectively LMC’s alibi”
W.B.M. claimed, just as he was getting to the scene a motorcycle slowly came down hill past him, with the rider looking at W.B.M.
Yet the motorcyclist, apparently did not come forward.
It has also been claimed that the forest workers stopped a motorcyclist, slightly above Le Martinet and spoke with that motorcyclist, this would have been when the motorcyclist opened his strange helmet and from that interaction the robofit portrait was compiled.
Are we now supposed to pretend, that this never happened?
The French have been shooting some of their ducks, the difficult ducks, who refused to neatly line up.
@michael norton
Here is another youtube video from SUD Radio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXR4vL3IMX0
Unfortunately I have no time atm to post more – should be back online at the weekend.
@michael norton
One thing of note in one of the videos that I have linked to recently is that updated information has come out re the phone call made to SM by his ex-wife as he rode up the combe. It is now said that this call started at 15:32 and ended at 15:33.
@intp1
Here is the youtube video from SUD Radio that I posted earlier this week:_
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXR4vL3IMX0
Around the 38:00 mark one of the presenters notes that some of the spent casings were ‘moved under the effect of the helicopters blades’.
Ask the Youtuber if the helicopter also moved the evidence flags (marqueurs de preuve)? Before any Cops were able and into neat, rectangular lines.
https://postimg.cc/MnSzR7SG
@intp1
OK that is a good point.
If you were prosecuting this case would you think the spent shell casing distribution was definitive and sufficiently reliable to put in front of a jury?
Have the girls been asked to give an artist, their impression of the killer?
I am imagining, they have, perhaps more than once.
Has any likeness been spotted between the drawings of the girls with the robot drawing of the motorcyclist with the side-opening helmet?
I doubt the robofit portrait of a motorcyclist with the side opening helmet, is of the person that killed the al-Hilli family.
I get the impression that the killer was a smaller chap, very agile, very fit.
However, I would like to return to my long held suspicion that a motorcyclist gave a pillion ride to the actual killer to the slaughter combe.
Everything seemed to happen, very fast, in deed.
Perhaps the motorcyclist went above Le Martinet. Perhaps he was going to motorcycle over hill and exit another route but the motorcyclist, got turned around by the forestry workers, above Le Martinet. Perhaps they were talking, while the shooting was going on.
My view is that the killer ascended the combe as a motorcycle pillion .
My view is the killer exited Le Martinet on foot, scrambling down through the forest.
Hiding the leather jacket and gun in a badger hole.
This would probably have been at least a kilometre or so downslope, he would not have wanted to be hanging around, just a few meters down from the car park, in case he was followed.
He would have left blood on the trees/undergrowth.
Another quite important point to consider.
Let us consider option one, the killer was also the motorcyclist.
If the motorcyclist was ascending to Le Martinet, if the only target was Sylvain Mollier, why not knock him off his bike, then shoot him?
Why wait until there were multiple people around, if you only want to kill a single person, you would probably want to get them on their own?
Option two, the killer wanted to take out the al-Hilli family, why not do that as they are ascending the combe.
Motorcycle past and shoot the driver.
Stop motorcycle and shoot the rest.
The only thing that makes sense, is if you wanted to take them all out in a shooting spree.
Same, if the shootist is the pillion.
It would seem that most likely the wanted ( by the paymaster) option, was for them all to be killed at the same spot.
@michael norton
You wrote:-
“I get the impression that the killer was a smaller chap, very agile, very fit”
I agree. One of the girls, probably Zainab, noted that the killer was of average height and build. Remember that LMC was described as ‘corpulent’.
A number of reports post re-enactment emphasise that the killer constantly moved around the crime scene, shooting as he went. So certainly agile (and possibly agitated). I have wondered whether this continuous cycle of shoot-move-shoot indicates any specific type of training or practice. Of course it could be our old friend ‘sheer necessity’ at work.
Here is one interview which mentioned constant movement around the crime scene. It certainly seems to be a distinctive element however it does not seem to garner as much attention as say, the placement of the shots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O6eSNc3hZQ
Le Parisien is the gift that keeps on giving
Check out this video – [PODCAST] Notre série sur l’affaire Chevaline : épisode 5/6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09HvihlhqVg
The commentary states re Sylvain Mollier’s trip to the combe above Chevaline that he cycled ’30 Km 420 covered in 1h21 and 50 seconds for average speed of 22.31 Km/h’
Well now, this is useful.
Back calculating to find his start time from Ugine yields 14:15 which, surprise surprise, is pretty close to the figure of 14:10 which was my preferred estimate.
I am still thinking on other aspects of the timeline.
There is another option but I do not think it is credible.
One man on a motorcycle.
That man being the sole killer.
The solo motorcyclist rides up the combe.
He goes slightly further up than Le Martinet, then rides the motorcycle a short distance into the forest.
Or he rides up the combe and ditches the motorcycle in the forest, before getting all the way to Le Martinet.
Leaving the motorcycle garb, with or near the motorcycle.
He then springs out of the forest and slaughters the people.
He then clambers down hill through the forest.
If this is what happened, we could have expected the French police to have discovered the dumped motorcycle?
@michael norton
Yeah, I seem to remember very early on posting my speculation that there could be a dumped motorcycle somewhere up in the mountains.
If a motorcycle was used and abandoned with the key in it, some kid who found it could have thought it was a stolen bike used for scrambling etc and thought Lucky Me!
However les gendarmes apparently did search the woods thoroughly for a decent radius around le Martinet. I think maybe 2.5Km, and didn’t find anything. Or anything that they told us anyway.
I wonder how les gendarmes themed/viewed/evaluated the reporting by the woman of Sylvain Mollier
on her concerns for Sylvain Mollier?
Was she concerned by the fact that he suddenly told her he needed to go cycling, when he was on Daddy duties, such that she had to shut her business to go and collect her child , from whoever Sylvain had dumped their child on.
Perhaps, she had an idea he was in danger, as he left for his impromptu cycle ride?
What was the time she reported her concerns to Les Gendarmes?
Claire Schutz
@michael norton
You wrote “Perhaps, she had an idea he was in danger, as he left for his impromptu cycle ride?”
Well, in my opinion she raised the alarm that he was missing with the gendarmes very, very, promptly. Unusually promptly for an adult male of sound mind. In the UK I would not expect the Police to action such a report without exacerbating factors.
Now, she could have been worried because she phoned him on his mobile like ten times but then he was cycling in an area with poor coverage.
So the question is what made her think so quickly that he was in real actual trouble?
ToE at LMP ver 4
For reference here is version 4 of my estimate of the timing of events at le Martinet parking.
15:35:00 – SAH party arrive at le Martinet parking
15:36:00 – SM arrives – shooting starts
15:37:00 – SAH reverses up against the bank – wheels begin to spin
15:37:30 – shooting finishes
15:38:00 – the killer starts to leave
15:38:45 – WBM notices Zainab staggering in the middle of the road and hears her cry out as she falls flat on her face
15:39:00 – WBM arrives – moves Zainab to recovery position
15:40:30 – WBM moves SM
15:41:30 – WBM checks car
15:42:00 – WBM breaks side window and stops engine – tries his mobile but cannot get a signal
15:42:30 – WBM starts back down the combe to get help
15:44:30 – WBM meets PB and his two compagnions
15:44:59 – At the request of WBM first emergency call made by one of the women to the SP
15:46:00 – WBM plus PB et al start back up to le Martinet
15:47:30 – WBM arrives back at le Martinet parking
15:48:00 – PB wigs out and tries to assault WBM
15:48:30 – approximate time PB makes second emergency call to the SP
The shooting itself takes 90 seconds. Two magazine changes are required.
NB WBM is at the scene of the crime for approx three minutes and thirty seconds (ie less than four minutes) before departing downhill to get help.
NB the BMW digs-in to the bank for approx five minutes before WBM turns off the engine.
@ Good In Parts, your timings are as tight as a duck’s arse.
So, only barely one minute between the killer leaving and W.B.M. being on scene, that is very tight.
@Good In Parts
Is there a time stamp, for when Lyon Motorcycle Man was interrogated by the Forest People?
@michael norton
We were given a loose timestamp of ‘around 3pm’ at the second hairpin by Eric Maillard himself.
As for the ‘interrogation’ by the Forest Folk, it was more of a friendly warning.
Remember, this was their actual job yet the two Forest Guards conspicuously failed to even take the motorcycle rego, failed to note the make of motorcycle, and failed to accurately describe his helmet etc etc.
This was a real epic fail. If they had done their job and gotten his name and motorcycle details, LMC would have been found and interviewed within 24 hours. There would have been no ‘reversed sighting’ of motorcycles and much less confusion (if any) as to the timeline. The investigation would have been in a very, very, different place.
@michael norton
You wrote “your timings are as tight as a duck’s arse.”
Well the ducks around your way must be rather ‘loose’ because, compared with my previous ‘complete’ timeline, I have allocated more than double the previous time for the shooting itself (because the most recent reconstruction gave specific timings). I have also allowed more time for messing around at the parking place and departing stage left.
However there is still scope to easily move the shooting start time back or forward by say a minute or so.
@ Good In Parts
After the Forest Folk, spoke with the Lyon Motorcycle Man, they told him to go back down as far as Le Martinet.
How long did LMC stay at Le Martinet.
My understanding is that Le Martinet is the highest legally accessible part of the route?
@ Good In Parts
15:38:00 – the killer starts to leave
15:38:45 – WBM notices Zainab staggering in the middle of the road and hears her cry out as she falls flat on her face
I would think that if the killer was walking up the combe from the scene of slaughter, that there was a good chance that W.B.M. would have spotted that.
If the killer was the motorcycle, slowly riding down the combe and looking at W.B.M., we know that Martin has told the cops, that he saw that.
There is a chance, that W.B.M. did not see the killer, if he silently slipped into the forest.
For me, the closest fit, would be a motorcycle, carrying a killer up the combe, as a pillion.
The pillion dismounts, takes the gun and ammunition out of the pannier/topbox, puts the motorcycle helmet in the topbox. The motorcyclist then rides further up the combe, either to escape over the hills and far away or more likely to wait it out until the shooting is over, then motorcycle slowly back down the combe, maybe to pick up the killer, if wanted but most likely the killer has slipped into the forest, never to be noticed again.
@ Good In Parts, do you think
The Forest People
took a photograph of the man on the motorcycle?
@michael norton
you wrote:-
“@ Good In Parts, do you think The Forest People took a photograph of the man on the motorcycle?”
That is a very good question. Back in 2012 smart phones with cameras were very much a ‘thing’ in the UK and presumably in france too. So it is certainly possible and a quite reasonable and sensible thing to do.
If they did, then presumably they didn’t pass it on to les gendarmes. I wonder if their phones were seized and analysed? I doubt it.
@ Good In Parts,
have you any idea how the Forest People, became connected with the police?
Did they perchance, hear the shootings?
Were they suspicious of the Lyon Man, and gently followed him down hill to the killing zone, then contacted control?
Did they, just finish their shift and come down past the mayhem?
Did they do nothing, at a later date the police had asked their controller, “Were any of your blokes in the area at the time of the killing”
So, what I am asking, was their involvement immediate, the same day or days later?
Serialization
One of the you tube videos that I posted up recently included a discussion by journalists. Essentially they commented about the media ‘serialization’ of the whole affair.
Thus the investigation goes ‘cold’ for a while with few articles being published, then some media outlet gets a bunch of leaks (for example, most recently Le Parisiene) and publishes a bunch of ‘exclusives’. Other media outlets re-publish, then things snowball and explode out into the blogosphere and social media, docudramas are then commissioned etcetera etcetera. Eventually things cool off until the next ‘episode’ in the series is ‘released’.
Bit of a meta discussion if you ask me, journos discussing the media and its effects. It raises the question, who is wagging the dog? The media or the justice system? Are the interests of the victims properly being served?
Garde Champêtre
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_champ%C3%AAtre_(France)
I had not known these guards are armed, they report and work for the Maire
It would be impossible to image that those Garde Chametre
were not quizzed very closely, soon after the shootings.
They had been in close contact with the potential murderer or the helper of the murderer.
Their talking with and view of Lyon man could be compared with the view of Lyon man by William Brett Martin.
They all saw him about the time of the slaughter.
They would be crucial in helping to define the timeline of events.
They should have been asked to view and talk with Lyon man, several years later, when he was tracked down.
They could then say, was this the same man, they spoke to up the combe on the day of the slaughter.
This was so very important.
In short,
was the man they interacted with, the same man W.B.M. encountered?
And,
the man who was brought in, a few times, as “The Motorcyclist”
was this the same person, stopped and reprimanded by the Garde Champêtre on 5 September 2012?
It would be hard to believe that “The Forest People” meaning The Garde Champêtre
did not have electronic communication that would be independent of mobile phone network.
Let us say that when they encountered a motorcyclist two bends or so about Le Martinet, they stopped that motorcyclist and spoke with that motorcyclist. They turned that motorcyclist around. Either, The Garde reported that in real time electronically or they did not.
If they did not electronically report, they probably would have recorded that encounter in their notebook.
But the actual time of that encounter would be set in stone.
To me it would be unimaginable that these Garde Champêtre, would not be at the slaughter scene, exceedingly quickly.
If they were not at the scene, very quickly, what would be the point of their employment?
The Garde Champêtre were the nearest officers to the scene of the slaughter, they were very near, probably within a mile on the same track.
No other group could have reached the scene, more quickly.
Perhaps, this is what happened.
A motorcyclist meets a car driver/walker in Doussard. That car driver/walker dons a motorcycle helmet and is pillion on that motorcycle ride going up the combe.
At Le Martinet, they stop, the pillion dismounts, takes the gun and ammunition from the panniers and puts the motorcycle helmet in the top box.
The walker then hides in the undergrowth.
The motorcyclist slowly rides up hill, he is then a spotter/intervener
A couple of of bends further up, he encounters the Garde Champêtre,
he might expect them to be armed. So, his purpose, then, is to delay them driving downhill too quickly.
So, they talk for some time, maybe until the motorcyclist is sure the shooting has ended, then he agrees to turn round and slowly ride down combe, watched by the Garde.
I am assuming that as Lyon Motorcycle Man ascended the combe he faced the Garde Champêtre as they were descending the combe.
After the Garde Champêtre spoke with LMC and he was persuaded to turn around and ride back down hill towards Le Martinet, we could assume that the Garde Champêtre continued on their journey and descended the combe, coming upon Le Martinet?
The Garde Champêtre would therefor have been the first officers at the scene of
The Slaughter of the Horeses.
@michael norton
I am not totally on board with the whole Garde Champêtre thing although I admit that the situation is not exactly clear.
If you search the french media, the two people we refer to as ONF2 are described as ‘Gardes de foret’ ie ‘forest guards’. They are respectfully referred to as ‘officers’ and seem to be accorded a higher status than ONF1.
The person we know as ONF1 is described simply as an ovrier or ‘forest worker’.
One or both could have a secondary role of wildlife hunting permit enforcement as you describe but I can find no reference to it.
Evidence Mishandling
For example, when WBM cycled down the combe he waited around and was passed by SAMU, Pompiers and a van load of gendarmes. A second van load of gendarmes turned up and stopped for a chat. He informed them that he was the one who was first on scene and they ‘invited’ him to come with them up to le Martinet.
They put his cycle in the back of their van along with a small bag he was carrying. It is not exactly clear what kind of bag this was, maybe a tote bag or similar. But he was given the bag back later on and, as it turns out, they failed to search it formally or process it for gunpowder residue. Obviously I don’t think for a moment that it ever contained a Luger 06/29 but the gendarmes are apparently a but grumbly about the issue.
Another recently revealed example it that apparently items of evidence were wantonly moved around inside the passenger compartment, thus when eventually processed by the forensic team the recorded locations of the items were not their original locations at the end of the shooting. This was only realised much later on and was blamed on the gendarmes but there were a number of other actors who had access to the scene before the forensic team from Paris arrived and started work.
I would guess, almost everything has been haphazard, nothing has been done properly.
Over twelve years and the French, apparently do not have any real clues?
Garde Champêtre
Is countryside police, multifunctional, if there is report of unauthorized shooting, say of a Luger type weapon in the woods, while this troop of
Garde Champêtre are already in the forest, there must be a way for their control to contact them, in real time.
Appartently, W.B.M. could not get a signal on his mobile phone, if the extremely nearby Garde Champêtre tried to use their personal mobile phones and that did not work.
We must assume they have a more advanced system of passing information between the garde and their control or the Pompiers.
I imagine it will be the same system as used by the Pompiers?
In remote forests, French firefighters (Pompiers) use a combination of technologies and strategies for communication, primarily relying on private wireless networks and portable ad-hoc repeaters to overcome the lack of traditional infrastructure like cell towers. They also utilize satellite communication and other methods to ensure reliable communication across large, often remote, areas.
In mountainous environments, Gardes Champêtres (rural police officers in France) primarily rely on two-way radios for communication. These radios allow for direct, real-time communication with their headquarters and other members of their team, enabling coordination and quick response to incidents.
Here’s a more detailed breakdown:
Two-way Radios:
These are the most common and reliable method for maintaining contact in the mountains, particularly in areas with limited or no cell service. They facilitate clear verbal communication, which is crucial for coordinating patrols, reporting incidents, and requesting assistance.
Satellite Phones:
While more expensive and heavier than radios, satellite phones offer a 100% reliable means of communication in emergencies, especially in remote areas where traditional communication infrastructure is lacking.
GPS Tracking Devices:
These devices can be used to track the location of Gardes Champêtres, especially when they are on patrol or responding to incidents in larger areas. They can also be used to signal for help in emergencies.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/GC_Alpes.jpg
in this picture taken from French Wikipedia, you can clearly see the Gardes Champêtre
armed with an automatic pistol.
This chap looks lean and fit and ready for any trouble.
So, not old and fat and trying to avoid trouble.
@michael norton
The gendarmes do (or did at the time of the murders) use the same system as the ONF and Pompiers etc
The Infrastructure Nationale Partageable des Transmissions (INPT)
see links below:-
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antares_(r%C3%A9seau)
https://www.decimale.net/actualites-inpt-rrf/
I did spend some time searching for base stations in the area and did find one possible site high up on the west side of the combe (which I think was installed to support mountain rescue efforts) but in the scheme of things it did not seem relevant to the murders.
This subject has been discussed previously on this forum by myself and Peter. You might search for posts including INPT.