The previous thread was overloading WordPress due to the number of comments. This thread has been opened to replace it.
Allowed HTML - you can use:
<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>
In Doussard there is a landing field used by many paragliders, usually after they’ve taken off from the nearby Col de la Forclaz.
Do we know, is this where LMC claimed he landed, after his gliding event?
Apart from Col de la Forglaz (In Switzerland?) being quite a distance from Doussard (Are you thinking a powered paraglider?) I don’t think he could carry the motor and the parachute up the mountain and also on a motorcycle? I always assumed it was an un-powered one, which is basically a glorified parachute.
Anyway, apart from that do you think paragliders “land” at airfields. That was not not my assumption or indeed experience, limited though it is.
i) They don’t need an airfield, they barely need a field to land.
II) Paragliders could interfere with regular flight operations. They fly at low altitudes, often below the radar, which could lead to collisions if not properly coordinated. The presence of paragliders could disrupt the normal flow of aircraft, especially during takeoff and landing phases where visibility and predictability are crucial
III) They would need to be in radio contact with an airfield, for them to coordinate /permit them to land
In short I do not think paragliders are compatible with air fields and anyway not at all necessary.
Quote
“Despite not using an engine, paraglider flights can last many hours and cover many hundreds of kilometres, though flights of one to five hours and covering some tens of kilometres are more the norm.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragliding
intp1
I had not known, that, that take off place, was in Switzerland.
Probably more local flights, also land in Doussard.
I have never been Paragliding or hangliding.
However, I was in the Air Training Corps in the sixties and became a glider pilot.
No roof, no engine, no communication system and no parachute, yet they let schoolchildren take part?
I bet it would not happen, these days.
I have not been gliding, since then, so know next to nothing.
I would like to do it again
I expect it would be quite expensive, these days.
In the ATC it was all free, they were hoping you would join the RAF, like W.B.M.
Yes so a paraglider does not have the wing span like a glider. Imagine getting towed to around 5000 ft in a glider, you would immediately be concerned where you might land? Unless you have serious thermals.
Well then imagine you are falling from that kind of alt. in a large parachute (paraglider)? You would like to know where you might land before you jumped off the side of the mountain. Really anywhere without trees or shear rocks would do.
Sure in perfect conditions from maximum altitude with thermals to hop you could put together a long, record glide down but then put that paraglider into the situation you are thinking about.
Little choice of take-off point or timing, or weather conditions, stress, need for covert landing and extraction. A player in such an enterprise is not going to land at an air field where that would be probably documented. Getting across the border could be useful?
If there was a convenient take off point nearby, the point would be to get out without using the road, land soon and near a discrete extraction option?
IMHO
Now what just came into my head? The Motorcycle which was seen cross country going where there was no easy access or exit? Travelling to a jump off point? No need for riding out. Could glide down to access to a vehicle. Just a thought. That would leave an abandoned MC but Keystone Clouseau probably didnt check.
Happy New Year!
@michael norton & intp1
My recollection is that LMC actually won (possibly in a customer lottery) a ‘first flight’ introductory lesson in hang gliding (in french ‘deltaplane’). He already had decent paragliding experience.
Many years ago I found out that the hang gliding lessons were run by ‘the Flyeo shop’ (I can’t remember whether that is the correct spelling). Anyway, they had premises in Doussard, so not co-located with the paragliding landing area. Their website noted clearly that hang gliding lessons started and ended at their premises in Doussard. Hope that helps.
Happy New Year!
P.S. There is another designated ‘landing field’ in the area very near Sythenex.
Very Local
@michael norton
From your estimate of walk-in time it seems clear that, unless there was ‘inside information’ acquired by a walk-in killer, he could not be specifically targeting anybody killed that day.
However a walk-in theory would work well for a ‘local lunatic’ scenario but they would implicitly be very local.
Here is Flyeo in Bing Maps
https://www.bing.com/maps?cp=45.777891%7E6.225231&lvl=16.9&style=h
Clicking on the icon brings up no result, so they may no longer be trading.
Also the landing ground near Sythenex does not seem to appear any more.
Espace 3D Parapente
Route de Marceau
Lathuile.
This place is incredibly close to the Lathuile home of W.B.M. it is also on a road to Chevaline
Does anybody remember from the early days a MC coming down through Chevaline and possibly being seen by the builders and/or seen by WBM just before he reached the eglise in Chevaline? I seem to remember that it was mentioned in one of the early TV docos (possibly Panorama).
Does anyone know the the original source?
This sighting, if real, could be important because, given what we have recently found out, it probably was not LMC. So it could have been a random rider who had been up the combe and was just leaving or it could have been a rider who had given a pillion passenger a lift up the combe as michael norton has suggested.
Grotte de Seythenex
So, I am trying to check out key timings as I try to rebuild a ‘clean’ version of the timeline.
“Around 1pm the family left the campsite and drove towards the village of Chevaline”
And my timeline has the Al Hilli family in Chevaline/Arnand from approx 15:10. However it should not have taken them very long to drive directly there from their campsite.
So, where did they go?
One hint is that we were told that they did some souvenir shopping.
Another, more tenuous indication is that they went to the Grotte de Seythenex at some time in their stay (but we don’t know when).
If they actually went to the Grotte then their route that day would be very different than we have been led to believe. They could have been ‘followed’ in the loosest sense of the word and targeted as tourists.
Quote from https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11021831/Orphaned-Brit-girl-parents-shot-Alps-tells-reveals-details-killer.html
Well if it was me they might have gone for Lunch although it is the law in France that you all must have lunch between 12- 1300.
Picnic?
@intp1
Yes, that is a very good suggestion.
Whether they went to a souvenir shop, a restaurant or Le Grotte, or even all three, there would be opportunities to interact with possible miscreants. Robbery-gone-wrong may not seem like a likely scenario but we are already deep in outlier country.
Maybe SM just rocked up and recognised the killer, thus precipitating the carnage
One very strange point about this slaughter.
Nobody has been caught.
Almost every other mass slaughter event, the perps are caught, usually within days.
Meaning they are caught, if they do not take their own lives or the police don’t kill them first.
The French Authorities, know the exact place and time this happened.
They have the dead bodies of those killed.
They know the movements of those killed, leading up to the moment.
They know the connections of victims to each other and of their connections to many other people.
They have DNA evidence.
They have statements from the two survivors.
They have statements from LMC.
They have statements from W.B.M.
They have statements from Zaid al-Hilli.
They have statements from Patrice Menegaldo.
They have statements from Nordahl Lelandais.
They have statements from Eric Devouassoux.
They have the spent slugs.
They have fragments of the gun grips.
They have the spent shell cases.
They have the cycle of Sylvain.
They have the car of Mr.al-Hilli.
They have the caravan of the al-Hilli family.
They have the al-Hilli camera.
Yet they apparently do not have a clue, who the killer or killers could be.
They also apparently do not have a motive.
Strange.
@Strange
It points to very efficient extraction or the French do not want and will not allow the truth to come out. Or Both.
Suggested Reasons:
* Politically very embarrassing for the French or their allies
* Technically embarrassing; such a huge cock up (by the French or its allies) that there would be public outrage
* A possibility I have hypothesised is a clash of 2 or more services unwittingly stumbling into each other which would be all of above.
* It is possible that it is classified for good reasons of national security; i.e. if we knew, we could agree it should be secret
It has security services involvement written all over it:
WBM looks and quacks like an agent
The immediate appearance of senior British embassy officials, in numbers at the scene by early the following morning.
The intense activity of French (and British) police and investigators to this day who’s responsibility seems to be to produce nothing.
Sylvain Mollier looks and quacks like an agent.
Mrs. al-Hilli was also an agent.
The “mother” of Mrs. al-Hilli, was also an agent.
Swiss cheese.
There are more holes in this article than in Swiss cheese.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14363159/2012-massacre-Brit-family-Alps-Swiss-soldier.html
See how many holes you can find. For example:-
”Investigators believe there is also evidence to suggest the killings were at random rather than pre-conceived.
The Al-Hillis were on holiday and simply exploring the countryside, while experienced cyclist Mr Mollier is said to have taken this route for the first time when the tragedy occurred.”
Well, we know from Mollier’s uncle, who lived in Faverges, that he did in fact regularly grimp this very route and would often drop in for a visit on the way back to Ugine.
Tir fichant
Quote from The Telegraph – link here:- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/02/05/alps-shooter-former-swiss-special-forces-lost-the-plot/
“Trapped in their BMW parked in the forest car park, three members of the Al-Hilli family were shot with three or four bullets each.
All received one or two bullets to the head at close range.
According to the weapons expert, the killer used a “tir fichant” (precision close-range) technique that bears the hallmarks of a “very specific military training” known only to a handful of individuals for use in “extreme situations”.
These include members of the French external intelligence agency, DGSE, a specialised service of the DGSI (internal intelligence) and the first marine infantry paratrooper regiment (RPIMa).
Le Parisien reports, however, that investigators believe it is more likely the killer came from Switzerland, where all special military forces are trained in the exercise of such point-blank techniques, notably members of the anti-terror unit Dard (Swift action and deterrent detachment).
In addition, the weapons expert told Le Parisien that two private Swiss companies taught this technique in the early 2010s as part of internships open to a few military and civilians. One of these companies even offered a module called “assassin course”.
“This is something learnt in Switzerland, not in France, or the guy is part of a specialised (French) unit,” concluded the expert.”
Let’s say that again! “These include members of the French external intelligence agency, DGSE, a specialised service of the DGSI (internal intelligence) and the first marine infantry paratrooper regiment (RPIMa).”
But the gendarmes think it more likely the killer came from Switzerland. To paraphrase Christine Keeler – They would say that wouldn’t they!
So how does a Swiss special forces geezer gain the local knowledge to enter and exit la combe without being noticed?
Very interesting indeed. However
DGSI
Formed 12 May 2014; 10 years ago
Jurisdiction French Ministry of the Interior
that is two and a bit years after “the Slaughter of the Horses”.
The DGSE
Formed 2 April 1982; 42 years ago.
The DGSE
The DGSE operates under the direction of the French Ministry of Armed Forces
essentially like British MI6
I guess 42 years is enough time to perfect these traits.
I don’t understand what “Tir fichant” means, can somebody please explain.
If I translate it comes out as “firing shot”, which is not specific.
What, specifically would it mean to operatives, say, of the DGSE?
Are we just talking about “Double tap”
as in SOE?
In Ian Dear’s book Sabotage and Subversion about British Special Operations Executive (SOE) and United States Office of Strategic Services (OSS) forces, Fairbairn is reported to have instructed SOE personnel in the double tap from 1944 to 1945 at the SOE training school directed by Fairbairn and Sykes near Arisaig in Scotland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_tap
michael norton
As to the meaning and origin of “Tir Fichant” – it does seem to be a bit obscure.
More literally it may be ‘bullet giving’ or perhaps ‘shot slapping’ as it seems to imply at very close range
In English I would go for ‘whack’.
Specialised Training
On the subject of specialised training, we have been here before:-
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/not-forgetting-the-al-hillis-continued/comment-page-217/#comment-651744
Below is an excerpt from the above post by long time commentator Peter back in January 25, 2017.
“His signature or his training ?
His signature. I cannot overemphasise how unusual this pattern is. The only “professionals” on whose curriculum I should expect to see this type of shooting are self-styled “elite” police units. For example, see the pattern of shots here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/01/03/JS117040429_bulletholes-m62-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqE__X03lsIrzKCFx5DY_5f1aLqpGloEt6kAXeHA2n_uk.jpg
and the entire article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/01/03/JS117040429_bulletholes-m62-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqE__X03lsIrzKCFx5DY_5f1aLqpGloEt6kAXeHA2n_uk.jpg
In my opinion, neither a regular French cop (who gets to shoot at most twenty rounds or so annually) nor a soldier (who is taught to aim at his enemies’ centre-mass first, and who, unless he is trained as a sniper, has no idea how car windows are going to deflect his shots) would have gone about this in that particular way.”
Peter made a very good point with respect to the placement of the shots.
Check out the following link:-
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/france-5-shot-4-dead-in-french-alps-may-have-intl-ramifications-2012-2.185693/page-34#post-19268120
It should be noted that the ‘Danish Citizen’ mentioned has been tracked down and eliminated.
michael norton
January 30, 2017 at 22:54
Could any contributor hazard a guess, why The French Authorities have not yet explicitly said,
“No longer search for the person who resembles the E-FIT-Robot, for it is an exact likeness of the mysterious motorcyclist, who was up The Combe but who saw nothing”
we have dismissed the story of William Brett Martin, who claimed he saw a mysterious motorcyclist, descending The Combe
as William Brett Martin was ascending The Combe, to discover the scene of The Slaughter of the Horses, we now think W.B.M. imagined a motorcyclist, we have come to this conclusion because the motorcyclist we have identified, who we can not introduce to the public for security reasons, has told us he saw bugger all.
We also now want you to stop looking for side-opening helmets because the witness who told us that story is a liar.
Thank you for believing us”
13/02/2025
I think the French are tying themselves in knots.
So, as to make it seem impossible for anyone to have witnessed the slaughter, to have heard the slaughter or to have seen anybody escaping the scene, they have done their best to distance LMC and to discredit the story of W.B.M.
It is almost as if they never want to find anything out?
If Zaid al-Hilli can be named, and photo supplied to the public, if William Brett Martin can be named, and photo supplied to the public,
if Eric Devouoassoux can be named, and photo supplied to the public, if Patrice Menegaldo, who for seven years had a liason with the sister of Sylvain Mollier, can be named, and photo supplied to the public.
Why can’t the mysterious motorcyclist L.M.C. be named and his picture be put up?
What are the Authorities in France hiding?
LMC
There must have been something special about LMC at the time of The Slaughter of the Horses or special about the past of LMC.
No photograph of him has been put up.
He has not been named.
Apparently, we have been told that he claimed he had never owned or used a special side-opening motorcycle helmet.
Apparently, he did not come forward, even though it is said he was up that combe at about the right time, because he did not believe it had anything to do with him. We have not even been told if he has accepted that he spoke with the Forest Guards.
The conclusion that is drawn, is this shadow person was employed by the French State.
michael norton
I would like to know why The French Authorities have not yet explicitly said why they have not withdrawn the international appeal for the X5.
I am sure you remember that there was no X5 and the witness who told them that story was a fabulist.
Austria again.
One of the media reports described the sample of DNA being tested against the Austrian database as ‘ancien’.
The only ‘ancien’ source of DNA from the scene I know of would be the broken pieces of the Luger grip plate.
So, just possibly the Luger ended up in the hands of an Austrian collector
More Swiss cheese, and more holes.
See link:-
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14363159/2012-massacre-Brit-family-Alps-Swiss-soldier.html
So, they think that the killer opened the car door, leaned in and fired shots.
How does that work?
From the moment that SAH started the engine and engaged reverse the doors would be locked. The locks were only released when WBM broke the window and turned off the engine.
So how could the killer open the car door?
Quote
“Zaid remains convinced that local authorities deliberately concealed key information.
This was a local crime, covered up by local police, he claimed.
After all this time, we deserve answers,’ he said. ‘We deserve to know why this happened – and why the police failed us so badly.”
Zaid al-Hilli has also hired renowned French lawyer William Bourdon
I wonder when the French Authorities will be explaining about the play acting in an airfield near Paris?
That was apparently, about six months ago.
I do not know why it is claimed the entire shooting lasted no more than ninety seconds, if they were basing their “presentation” on the claims of W.B.M. that means they beieved W.B.M.
However, now they are discrediting W.B.M.
therefor the ninety second timeline is not still in play?
Why burn your best witness?
michael norton wrote “now they are discrediting W.B.M.” and he is correct.
When this tragedy comes to trial the gendarmes are going to need WBM. He is their premier witness.
Yet the gendarmes unnecessarily threw him under the bus, describing him as ‘having made a mistake in his testimony’ and emphasising that he was off by 1 Kilometer in his reported location. There was no need to do this. No need at all.
The defence will now have a field day. The majority of the witnesses in and around the combe are compromised in some way or other. Can you imagine putting LMC on the stand? Or ONF1?