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I realize that account was not interest-bearing, but I also think that Peter might be able to enlighten us. Peter, would it have been possible to designate interest earned by funds on deposit in a Swiss bank to a charity: some Muslims do not want the bank to profit, when it is perfectly in line to give interest income to charity. Thus, any interest earned would go directly to a charity account? Bankers can be creative in keeping their clients happy.
I also find it interesting that much of what has been discussed in this forum and others seems to have taken root in cousin Hussain’s comments. Cousin Hussain runs a charity in Iraq. Cousin Balsam does not seem to agree with Hussain. We don’t know the extent of either cousin’s involvement with Saad and Zaid and their parents. Hussain was in contact with Saad shortly before Saad’s death. Was he administering charitable donations from Kadhim or other family members? What, if anything, is at stake for him?
If among his many talents, Parachutist / Legionaire / mountainman / lover
Patrice Menegaldo was also a fire fighter, I expect he was a retained fire fighter by that I mean some person who probably has a main job but rushes in, when he is needed.
There seems to be copious accomodation above the Sapeure-Pompier, in Ugine and a near-by road, seems to have brand new homes with double garages, Avenue des Charmettes,
which I expect are for full-time fire fighters
( one has old fire extinguishes nailed to his wall.
If I recall correctly, the money was quoted as being £690K when placed there, one million Swiss Francs.
The value at the time of the murders said to be 960K€, which then became £800K. Is this increase purely exchange rate differences ?
MN, by the photo Patrice M lived in block F, they are HLM, which is Social Housing, there are other appartment blocks like this in Ugine, two of Molliers siblings also live in HLM.
Stephane Bouchet from Le Dauphine Libere says Mollier and Patrice M lived in the same block, take a wider view and you will see F & E are attached to one another in an L shape.
I see no reason to doubt the local journalist, so at some point Mollier lived in Social Housing, the house in the centre of Ugine where Mollier and Claire lived was a rented property and big enough to cater for his two older boys to ‘move in’ or at least stay overnight.
Hate preacher accused of radicalising FRENCHMAN who BE-HEADED his boss before placing his head on a spike’ lives in BRITAIN, it is revealed
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3148070/Hate-preacher-accused-radicalising-Frenchman-beheaded-boss-placing-head-spike-lives-BRITAIN-revealed.html
@ Good In Parts, 3 Jul, 2015 – 6:34 pm
Thank you so much for bringing that magnificent quote to my attention!
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/66426-the-past-is-a-foreign-country-they-do-things-differently
I really love it; it is one of the most profound sentences that I have read in a very long time.
@ M., 3 Jul, 2015 – 6:54 pm
I am not surprised that the gendarmes are trying to dot all the Is and cross all the Ts by attempting to trace the sources of all unaccounted-for DNA inside the car and the camper van. However, if they were really able to rule out Devouassoux and Menegaldo on the basis of two DNA profiles found at the scene of the crime, they must have found that DNA evidence on material that is doubtlessly linked to the killer(s). Thus, to paraphrase your question, did two killers spit on their victims?
Personally, I don’t think so. I would guess that this DNA was found on the Luger’s grip fragment. The cross-hatching of the pistol grip is such a perfect means of gathering skin flakes that it could almost have been purposely designed for that purpose. Those two DNA profiles then most likely correspond to two previous owners/users, albeit not necessarily including the killer himself. Still, they would be a great starting point for an investigation. Why have Maillaud’s men not started conducting DNA screenings in the area? As I have said, all it would take for them would be to achieve a single match on the Y-STR haplotype of some random some male in the area
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplotype
then consult a genealogist and test all males in the area who are related in the male line.
@ Q, 3 Jul, 2015 – 7:17 pm
Zero per cent interest (plus or minus a few percentage points) is what you can expect from merely parking money in an account with a Swiss private bank. Whatever additional interest there might have been would have gone towards paying off annual administration fees of several hundred Euros. Thus, there would have been no net interest income that could have been gifted to any charities.
Don’t ask me why Kadhim chose that solution, which saw the net value of his nest-egg dwindling away each year, after taking inflation and account management fees into consideration. I have never understood that.
@Peter
“Interest”ing point there.
Moreover, why was ZAH “managing” the money ? All you do is note when the admin charge comes out.
There seems to be no “re-mortgage” on the “main” house, so whe did KAH get the money to buy the Mijas flat and the Chessington apartment ?
No visible means of income there. Yet money available.
If there was slaughter spit on the al-Hillis but not on Mollier,
it would indicate that the slaughterer wanted to slaughter the al-Hillis but mollier was at the wrong place at the wrong time
as Mr. Mailaud, claimed all along but if we reverse the spittle, then the al-Hillis were at the wrong place at the wrong time.
I’ve not seen it in real life because I’ve not seen anybody slaughtered but in films they sometimes spit on corpses.
James, Zaid claims he knows very little about the Swiss account to the extent he doesn’t know how much is in it.
Repeated in The Parry Bible.
The answer to property acquisitions without a standard money trail could be interest-free prvate loans. Why someone would do that if they had money sitting fee and clear in a bank account, earning no interest is beyond me. That would not make sense.
Q, it does make sense, a rainy day scenario.
I have done it, the money is in the bank, a loan raised and repaid monthly still leaves ‘rainy day’ money intact. If you have money in a French bank today it earns next to nothing. I have stopped getting involved in the investment to reduce taxes (a bit like government bonds) because the value has reduced to a negative.
There are often Life Assurance policies to accompany the loan, at a premium.
Something mentioned today is the mystery surrounding the death of Khadim, who was there when he died ? Had he really been ‘missing’ from the nursing home for six days ?
With the greatest respect to those who, like me in the past, thought Mollier the target, it is so extraordinary for a family with such a history to be murdered as witnesses.
Our man could have shot a few times, crackle the windows, what would they have seen after that ? He did not need to ensure death, unless as a hunter he decided to put them out of their misery, as they do with animals.
In my private Hollywood’s scenario I find a master piece of the puzzle. 4 september .
The TCK was certainly programed for the 4 september. The Day of Moise.
M., takaful insurance, of course.
James
I think they were really lucky in timing of property purchases. KAH bought a property for his sons to live in whilst at college. SAH went to Kingston. Chessington is in the Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames.
I dont know if the apartment is actually the same property, I am guessing here but I think they may have sold the original and traded up. It is possible that they still own the original (now mortgage-free) property and used rental income to fund the purchase of the apartment.
SAH would have nominally started uni in say 81 and ZAH earlier than that. So KAH would still have been working then.
The early eighties was pretty much a bottom in the property cycle, and Kingston is a desirable area. They must have made some money from the property value increasing, plus income from renting it out later.
Another point is that KAH had other ‘offshore’ accounts, not just the Swiss Bank account. I seem to remember that there were two more in the Channel Islands.
Peter
I am glad you like it. I think it is profound too, not just in its literary (and personal) context but also from a block spacetime perspective.
Time becomes just another dimension. The past becomes a direction.
And they do, do things differently over there, as you may remember from when you visited.
@ Mr Juicy
Sorry, I work still. I am often away.
The “peashooter” fight with Max is funny. For me at least.
I have to laugh.
Max has either “lost his forum” OR “he wishes to recruit for his Private Forum from here (and he hates “here”).
But…since you are “in love” with Max….. what can I say !
Max… post away. Make “this” your own. I merely laugh at the politics that has become this place (and “without wheelchair assistance” I bid you “good luck” !
@ Peter 4:31 3rd July
DNA and Haplotypes
Thanks for providing the link to the Figaro article about Devouassoux:
“Une source proche de l’enquête a indiqué que son ADN n’avait pas “matché” avec deux profils retrouvés sur les lieux du quadruple meurtre”.
I agree that the DNA issue is confusing, and your attempt to make sense of it all is just as likely to be right as any other. For what it’s worth, my take on this is that:
• The investigators may not be sure that they have DNA samples of the killer(s);
• Most likely they do have DNA traces that they know do not belong to the victims or to their own “experts” who may have inadvertently left their DNA on the scene;
• It’s possible that traces of the killer’s DNA could be found on the fragment of the gun handle, but this may have been mixed with the DNA of Zainab;
• Even if they do have samples that could reasonably be linked to the killer, the reliability of these samples will be affected by such factors as the amount and condition of the samples, possible contamination and admixture.
On the fallibility of DNA evidence, see
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727733.500-fallible-dna-evidence-can-mean-prison-or-freedom.html?page=2#.VZc8wfmqpBc
Different forensic experts may in some cases come to different conclusions about whether or not a suspect’s DNA is a match with DNA found on the crime scene.
With all these provisos, all that can be safely said is that the DNA of Devouassoux and others does not match the samples which the police have taken from the scene. It is possible that the DNA samples taken from the scene do not belong to the killer. It is also possible that Devouassoux and others were at the scene but left no traces of their DNA.
On the haploytype point, the dominant Y-DNA haplotype in the Rhone Alps area is haplotype R1b (66.5% of the population). By contrast, the haplotypes J1 and J2, which are associated with the Middle East and Arab world, constitute only 2.5% of the population. Source: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml and http://www.eupedia.com/europe/benelux_france_dna_project.shtml#France
If (if) the samples are in good condition, it should be possible to establish the ethnic origins of the sources of the DNA found on the scene and a probability that they are local people. However, the R1b haplotype is also quite prevalent throughout Western and Central Europe, so an R1b sample would not necessarily be from a local person. On the other hand, the discovery of haplotypes such as J1 or J2 on the scene (provided it was certain these did not come from the al Hillis) would be more significant.
Haplotypes can be further broken down into subdivisions and ultimately “clades” based on further minute mutations in mitochondrial DNA. But this is still a young science and there generally insufficient globally or locally to determine these subdivisions with any precision.
@ Mr Juicy, 4 Jul, 2015 – 4:59 am
Wow, you have actually engaged with the arguments that I put forward in my clumsy, rambling manner.
As you rightly note, the two big questions are: (1) How confident can the gendarmerie be that those two DNA profiles they have found are linked to the killer? (2) How complete are they? An additional third question would be: (3) How reliable are they? (If the samples required a lot of boosting, their interpretation would be more art than science, as pointed out in the New Scientist article that you cited)
The article that I referenced about the gendarmerie being able to rule out Devouassoux at least made it sound as if they were pretty confident on question (1). Whether that is true or not, we have no way of knowing. If it were true, it would be very helpful, because it would at least allow them to rule out individuals such as Menegaldo with a high degree of confidence.
If my supposition is right and they lifted those two DNA profiles off the pistol grip fragment, then your objection holds and they will have been commingled with Zainab’s DNA. Commingled male-female DNA is actually a very common scenario: in many rape cases, for example, the vaginal swab taken off the victim afterwards will contain such a mixture, making it hellishly difficult to separate the offender’s X-chromosome from the victims’. However, the offender’s Y-chromosome can still be reliably isolated.
Once that had been accomplished, over and above identifying the haplogroup, it can be analysed in a more granular manner by looking at “short tandem repeat” patterns (Y-STR). All men related in the paternal line share the same Y-STR haplotype. Hence, the Y-STR haplotype cannot be used to identify individuals (although it is often misused precisely for that purpose), but only groups of men related in the paternal line. Europe’s biggest database is here:
https://yhrd.org
Y-STR analysis also allows for fairly good guesses to be formed regarding offenders’ place of residence, because population genetics informs us that people are relatively immobile over the course of their lifetimes. Thus, clusters of men sharing the same Y-STR profiles are typically to be found within a radius of only a few kilometers. (If you are interested, a man called Peter de Knijff is the academic go-to-guy on these matters
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_De_Knijff )
In a rural area such as the Savoie, population mobility will be quite low and rates of intermarriage high. Thus, provided that the haplogroups of those two DNA traces be consistent with the originators hailing from the general area, it might be worth establishing the dominant Y-STR haplotypes village by village. All of these villages probably go back to at most half a dozen men.
All that would be wasted effort if the two DNA traces presumably found on the pistol grip fragment belonged to the gun’s original owner and to the guy who sold the gun to the killer, with the killer never touching it with ungloved hands. However, I should consider it worth a try. As I have argued, they would only have to test a few dozen men from each community in order to establish the dominant local Y-STR haplotypes, and, if they achieved a match, they would have a solid lead to follow.
If Patrice was a Legionnaire, why no messages of sympathy from Legionnaires.
If Patrice was a fire fighter, why no messages of sympathy from Fire fighters.
If Patrice was a family friend both of the family Schutz and of
the family Mollier, why no messages of sympathy.
As for four wheel drive vans
Landrover Defender do a four wheel drive van
they also used to do a four wheel drive Landrover Discovery van
@James
You are wrong, and wrong, and I still love you too:)
Correct, I have ‘lost’ Public
Sure, I have lost it because of you! 🙂
But every down side has an upside
I decided to close down public, realizing a bit later (and I think Peter somewhere here mentioned this way back) that CM is also public, maybe even better, because without moderator
In other words, there were 2 public forums
So, my loss, is not really a loss
I give up DZ public, and am happy that CM exist to retain the function
Maybe, even for the better! (sure, I had to swallow a bit of my pride;)
I’m not here to recruit
I’m not here to ‘take over the show’
I’m hesitant to post too much (spamming the CM forum, looking like taking over)
I will get in line, and conform myself to CM rules and stay a bit back
… and that, all set in motion because of you James … now that is what I call funny;)
Anyway, although I had to swallow some pride, I hold no grudge. In fact I’m happy to end the moderating aspect of DZ public.
The only thing I will retain is the private discussion with mostly Lynda and 2 others (women, who simply do not like to enter a public discussion). It worked and still works like a charm, so I’m not giving this up. Although I have set a semi enddate of sept 30 (with option to extend), because even in private I don’t want to discuss TCK for 7 more years.
I hope the case will be solve, better sooner than later
James, I really do hope you will accept my answer, there is really no horrible/secret/hidden agenda
This thread is turning into a dating site.
James, Max, can you not develop your love/hate relationship somewhere else, in private?
Posters like Mr Juicy, GIP and Peter are trying to work towards solving this case. Respect.
@M.
You mentioned “Repeated in The Parry Bible.”
For believers the Bible is the Holy Book but for this case The Perfect Crime looks like the ‘hollow book’ the few snippets of factoids almost always lack confirmed sourcing.
Why would Sylvain Mollier at first ( still in Wiki) be described as a metalurgist working for Cezus-Areva.
Then ( in some accounts) gets relegated to just a welder,
then much later he does not work for Cezus-Areva.
@Melrose, A few posts to clear up the air, that’s all.
Who or what
is funding the legal team defending the privacy of the dead Sylvain Mollier?
For those interested in SM being the (only?) target …
… CS is instrumental in SM being at Martinet
This by the words of CB (advocate) herself, declaring that CS came back home so that SM could go biking. Or, turn this around, if CS had NOT come home, SM wouldn’t have arrived at martinet!
To me a fundamental building block
https://soundcloud.com/deadzone61/rtl-20150313-caroline-blanvillain-why-sm-was-at-martinet
To me CS is as big a part of the puzzle as SM himself (with her supposedly 17h alarm raising), and I’ll gladly add LR into the mix, who called SM at 15h32.
The frustrating thing of course is that EM & co supposedly checked everything SM and came up with nothing. However I do not fully trust the SM, CS, LR, PM bunch … it is a interesting ‘number configuration’ to keep in mind
This is a very interesting line of enquiry (indeed a very interesting subject generally). Let’s hope that the DNA samples collected at the scene are in good enough condition to permit accurate and reliable Y-STR analysis.
I agree that villages in the area are likely to contain clusters (perhaps even a majority) of men belonging to the same sub-sub-sub division of the (I guess) R1b haplotype. I am not sure whether each village would have its own distinct clusters, since men might migrate from village to village, while remaining in the same general region. But certainly it could be feasible to make some well-informed guesses about the place of origin of the source of the DNA samples collected at the scene.
The genetic mutations which created these “sub-sub-sub” clades would probably have occurred hundreds of years ago (the original R haplotype is thought to be 8,000 years old). Even though the original families in the area may have roots going back many centuries, the gene pool will have been replenished by other families coming in from outside at some point in history, who most likely would belong to another haplotype (for example the Menegaldo family, whose name is Italian in origin). Thus the DNA sample collected on the scene, even if it did not conform to a typical local cluster, could still be from a local man.
It’s an interesting statistical puzzle to work out how many men in each village would have to be tested in order to establish a cluster. The populations of Ugine, Doussard, Lathuile and Chevaline are 7,300 / 2,800 / 700 / 200 respectively. Half of which is male, of course. Perhaps a few dozen samples would suffice for Lathuile and Chevaline, but for the larger places, probably not. I guess there would also be privacy issues surrounding mass DNA sampling of innocent people. But perhaps a local family history society with an interest in Y-STR analysis for genealogical purposes, could give some advice about the most common “deep clades” in the area.
It is not just who is paying for the services of Caroline
but who is behind the legal covering the truth.
What are the truths
that are not wanted in the full searchlight of exposure.
Now; Sylvain was not a metalurgist, then he doesn’t even work for Cezus-Areva
is that suppose to mean he was never a metalurgist and he never worked for Areva or any part of the nuclear complexes in France ( which is mostly owned by THE FRENCH STATE)
or does it mean he used to be a metalurgist working for Cezus-Areva, then some time before he was shot
he ceased to be an employee of Cezus-Areva
or are they intending us to think a long time before he was killed he gave up working for Cezus-Areva.
One might think that a metalurgist working for a nuclear fuel company would earn more than a mere welder not working for a nuclear fuel company.
So, if Sylvain Mollier did use to be a metalurgist working for Cezus-Areaa,
what made him give it up?