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@ Pink, 5 Jul, 2015 – 8:03 am
I think that was a genuine mishap. In order to be able quickly to identify accidental cross-contaminations, it is standard practice for DNA profiles of all personnel who handle evidence to be kept on file. Thus, they would at least already have had the DNA of the “expert” in question.
Whether local gendarmes and sapeurs-pompiers are also routinely required to submit DNA samples, I don’t know. I doubt it. They may have been retroactively asked to provide samples in this particular case – and this is where things could have gone badly wrong. Collecting DNA samples is a menial task entrusted to the lower ranks, because it does not require any specialist skills. However, ensuring that the person whose sample you are taking indeed is the one whose sample you are supposed to take requires alertness and scrupulous attention to detail.
There are numerous historic cases in which perpetrators have been able to elude capture by persuading someone else to provide a DNA sample on their behalf, yet, once it is “in the system”, DNA evidence is considered as good as infallible. To give a hypothetical example: let us assume that PM was amongst the sapeurs-pompiers attending the scene of the crime at the Martinet. Let us further assume that everybody who was near the place on the day was later asked to submit a DNA sample, and that PM (perhaps citing some minor previous criminal conviction that he did not want his bosses or the police to know about) persuaded somebody else to provide a sample on his behalf. Would the gendarmerie analyse his DNA again after his suicide, given that they already had it on file and had already ruled him out upon that basis? I very much doubt that.
I did take the information at face value at the time when I looked back at the article the thought occurred there could have been an ulterior motive thanks for the feedback .
Of course the first suspect in the mind of Eric Maillaud, should have been the first person on the scene of the slaughter – nobody apparently apart from the little girls-
were witnesses to him at Le Martinet.
He admits to touching the larger child, moving the body of Sylvain Mollier, breaking the car window and putting his hands inside the car, what else did he do.
Then there is the story that he lives opposite the Camping Ideal and cycled up the combe as did Mollier, yet remarkably they ley him, virtually instantly return to England.
How utterly amazing.
Did they take his dabs and his DNA in those first couple of days?
W.B.M. eX-RAF
Quite a few of the actors seem to live in Lathuile, what is the real significance of that place, less than one thousand inhabitants, yet stepped in death and intrigue.
I wonder if the family Menegaldo are related to the Gotta?
The Camping Family Gotta of Lathuile
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.societe.com/societe/madame-michele-gotta-410478150.html&prev=search
Question
Are there other actors residing in Lathuile
who have not yet shown their hand?
@Michael Norton
” Are there other actors residing in Lathuile
who have not yet shown their hand? ”
Of course there are that is one of the reasons this case is still unsolved but when you say Lathuile extend it to Faverge, Ugine, Grignon and a few others.
@Mr Juicy
” But that does not definitively rule out a Middle Eastern connection. It simply means that, apart from the AHs, no Middle Eastern person left any DNA on the scene. Middle Eastern Suit Man may also have been Middle Eastern Latex Glove Man. ”
As far as I know, ‘ethnic profiling’ is forbiden by French law, while technically possible. This sounds good enough a reason for the prosecutor not to refer to it. Also DNA profiles may be indicative of people’s ancestry, but not of their current area of residence. Also the so-called ‘Suit Man’ at the Solitaire camping ground was never described as ‘Middle Eastern’ it is the other person at Camping Europa who was.
@M.
Menegaldo left “four letters”?
Maillaud said one, his sister said three. Do you speculate there was a fourth one being perhaps a cover letter? That would have been very delicate of him but not impossible we all know FFL are very literate individuals.
I thought Eric Maillaud had described that in the apartment of the eX-Legionnaire was found a six or seven page letter.
I remember commenting that perhaps this meant it was written on six sheets, with more writing on the reverse of the sixth sheet.
I do not recall him saying multiple letters?
@ Melrose, 5 Jul, 2015 – 12:23 pm
The man at Camping Europa was described as being of “Balkans” appearance and dressed all in black (spooky, huh?). He later turned out to be an Italian tourist.
The “suit man” at the Solitaire was described as, well, wearing a suit and animatedly speaking to Saad in an unknown language wholly incomprehensible to earwitnesses. Those witnesses may well have further described his physical appearance and presumed ethnic origins to investigators, but that information was never publicised. His presumably being of Middle Eastern extraction merely is an inference based upon him speaking Arabic with Saad (which is in itself an inference, but a pretty safe one). In theory, for all we know, he could have been a Chinaman who happened to speak fluent Arabic.
The Parry Bible got all this wrong, unfortunately.
Just to throw our conspiracy theorists a bone, it has just occurred to me that there is a place where one would be likely to find significant numbers of people with “European” DNA haplogroups who spoke fluent Arabic: Israel.
Melrose, my idea of 4 letters comes from the recent brouhaha surrounding the radio interview with Christelle Menegaldo, she said she, her mother and nephew had a letter to them and it appears another was found beside his body. It could all be the same one ! The Parry Bible says the letter was two pages, Maillaud said six or seven. Christelle also says the sentiments written to them are private.
http://www.francebleu.fr/infos/haute-savoie/tuerie-de-chevaline-mon-frere-2451917
L’avocat de la famille, JeanPierre Lepetit a lu quelques extraits de la lettre retrouvée avec le corps de Patrice Menegaldo, “je ne sais rien de toute cette histoire.Et mon geste n’est pas un aveu. C’est ma façon de défendre les miens malgré la douleur et le chagrin qui va nous toucher”.
© Le Télégramme – Plus d’information sur https://www.letelegramme.fr/fait-divers/tuerie-de-chevaline-la-soeur-de-l-ex-legionnaire-defend-son-frere-23-06-2015-10678199.php
Chances are it is all lost in translation and all seven pages each individually addressed were found beside the body.
@Peter
Thanks for your lecture. Beside ‘Chinamen’, many Frenchmen (close to ten %) speak fluent Arabic. Some people don’t like that but it’s a fact. The old “don’t judge a book by the cover”.
Your British English is excellent, better than M.’s, yet I doubt it’s your native language.
Things are complicated. Beware of inferences. Suit Man could easily have been a local.
The crew of the rescue center of FAVERGES
had three volunteer firefighters, a woman and two men involved,
one slightly injured but all are shocked.
http://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-divers/haute-savoie-des-pompiers-attaques-lors-d-une-violente-embuscade_967107.html
I am not at all surprized that the fire fighters are shocked.
They go to attend a stanley knife victim in Cons-Sainte-Colombe,a sleepy village of 161 elderly inhabitants, they rescue the victim and take him to the hospital in Annecy, getting hijacked at Duingt (adjacent to Lathuile)
the vehicle pretends an accident, the fire fighters get out to assist
and are attacked my masked people who open the doors of the ambulance and shoot inside, then throw incendiary devices into the vehicle.
A passing lorry driver, extracts the victim, then after the hooded persons have fled an air ambulance is called out, fire fighter vehicle complete write off.
Bernard Cazeneuve was involving himself in these terrible crimes until they were superceded by the be-heading up the road.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Bernard+Cazeneuve+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=3yeZVfWXLqat7Aapx6jIBg
Mr. Eric Maillaud is looking into it.
We wonder could it be a BLOOD-FUED
Faverges does crop up again and again.
The vendetta on the streets of Doussard
was commenced in Faverges.
The young man who did the wounding came from Faverges. Steve Havutçu.
Did we ever find out who were the local couple who were hospitalized by Havutçu
in the BLOOD-FEUD?
@ Melrose, 5 Jul, 2015 – 1:48 pm
Ten per cent of the French populace being fluent speakers of Arabic may be stretching it a bit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_France
and they must be much thinner on the ground in Haute Savoie than in major conurbations, but it is nonetheless an excellent point that had not occurred to me.
@Peter
Not correct. The predominant Jewish haplogroups (Oriental, Sephardic, Ashkenazic Jews) are Middle Eastern. Indeed many share the same haplogroup (J) as Iraqis! The other important Jewish haplogroup is E (North Africa/Horn of Africa. Only a small minority belong to the haplogroups commonly associated with Europeans (eg R).
On the subject of the language spoken between Saad and “Suit Man,” the Dutch campers who overheard to the conversation (from a distance) assumed that the two men were speaking Arabic, although none of them had any knowledge of Arabic. Perhaps they were. But another possibility is that the two men were in fact speaking English, but that “Suit Man” was speaking with a strong accent. When someone speaks English as a foreign language, and speaks it badly, he will substitute the phonetics and intonation of his native tongue. Someone listening from a distance, unable to make out the meaning of the words, particularly if they themselves are not native English speakers, may wrongly assume that the heavily accented version of English that they are hearing is in fact an incomprehensible foreign language. Of course, Saad’s English would have been perfect, but if he had been speaking more softly, or if “Suit Man” had been doing most of the talking, it is not difficult to imagine how the assumption that they were both speaking Arabic would have arisen.
As Melrose rightly points out, beware inferences. Appearances can be deceptive, although I doubt if the Dutch witnesses would have had any difficulty in recognizing a “Chinaman” as you so quaintly put it.
I am thinking that BLOOD-FEUD
in the Doussard / Faverges / Lathuile / Ugine / Albertville environs
maybe extended to cover the incident at Le Martinet of 05/09/2012
That could be why so many of the actors are very, very local.
No I dont think we did MN, Bluebird badly wanted to know that.
I was reading an old thread earlier and discovered there is/was some sort of club on the Faverges road any idea what club it is ?
Michael Norton
5 Jul, 2015 – 1:57 pm
“Did we ever find out who were the local couple who were hospitalized by Havutçu
in the BLOOD-FEUD?”
Melrose, ha ha.
There were many witnesses to the animated discussion between Saad and the well dressed man at the campsite.
Not everyone jumps infront of a camera or wishes to speak to journalists.
He tapped on the car, maybe his DNA is on the car, they were very careful to take prints and not break the windows.
Now where did Rizet say this was ? I recall someone somewhere speculating the white marks on the vehicle were dusting and not bullet holes.
There is Le Flash in Marlens
http://www.leflashback.fr/
@ Mr Juicy, 5 Jul, 2015 – 2:14 pm
Yes, I am aware of the genetic make-up of Israel’s population. Reportedly, Israeli scientists once conducted joint research with South Africa’s Dr Wouter Basson on biological weapons that would only kill people whom their genetic make-up marked out as (potential) enemies. Basson abandoned that research for other reasons, but the Israeli’s quit because they were too genetically similar to their neighbours.
I am not entirely convinced that English spoken with a strong accent would have been wholly incomprehensible to earwitnesses, but I take your point. However, I must point out an implicit inference that you made: where do you get the idea from that Saad’s English would have been “perfect”? At least to my ears, his brother Zaid has quite a marked ethnolect. Okay, he is three years older, and those formative early years of language acquisition count extra, but, until I have heard a speech sample, I refuse to believe that Saad spoke pure standard English.
@peter
Longshot I did wonder if it might have been Rebai Fathi I think he also ran the shopi at the time some links are 404.
I remember when looking on streetview the MB place was in the general area SAH was driving that day .
It was showing up at one time even though the food business had gone perhaps he has given them all up.
Bluebird
4 Feb, 2013 – 9:29 am
Pink
“If I were SAH and i wanted to repair that car, then i would probably go to Rebai Fathi (motorcycle and car repair). Simply because i could expect that he speaks Arab.”
http://www.bilansgratuits.fr/REBAI-FATHI–51383589200011.htm
“Vendetta” dans les rues de Doussard
http://www.ledauphine.com/faits-divers/2012/09/26/vendetta-dans-les-rues-de-doussard-huit-mois-de-prison-ferme
Steven Havutcu from Faverges went to prison for eight months for putting a young local couple in hospital, this was days before the Slaughter of the Horses.
Do the locals ever get fed up with all the deaths /fire-setting/intimidation/
suicides / gorge plunges/barrel-rolling blood feuds?
James Mathews/Fat Bastard says Saad spoke with a cockney accent. Most recently Pink posted the link to the radio interview of Ahmad Al-Saffar, Ikbals uncle, he sounded like Zaid.
I wonder where the women and children were when the half an hour animated conversation took place ?
@ M., 5 Jul, 2015 – 2:44 pm
Yes, I know, but that may have been a Cockney dialect on top of an Iraqi ethnolect. (Weirdly, not many people mistake me for a native speaker of English, but those who do invariably take me for a Brummie – although I have visited that city only once in my entire life.)
You would never mistake Zaid for a native speaker of English, and yet he was the one married to an Irishwoman, and he is the one who works in an office amongst native speakers rather than in a shed all by himself. Thus, I tend to interpret those statements by his friends about how British Saad was and how perfect his English was to be kind gestures intended to dispel any ideas that he might have been involved in Oriental cabals.
The way forward for new nuclear power in Europe without state subsidies is quite tricky
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/11709083/Government-and-EDF-in-talks-over-liabilities-if-Austria-wins-nuclear-state-aid-appeal.html
U.K.Government and EDF in talks over liabilities if Austria wins nuclear state aid appeal
That will not please the FRENCH STATE
who have recently increased their holdings in FRENCH NUCLEAR BUSINESSES.
Some of which are skating on finacially very, very thin ice.
@M
Thanks for Le Flash .
Marlens is quite popular with hang glyders and the like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlens
Incidentally,
you could walk from Le Flash
to Cons-Sainte-Colombe, it is about 1/4 mile,
how interesting, a sleepy village with 261 inhabitants that has fires and a young person is tortured by stanley knife, taken by the local volunteer fire fighters to hospital and are hijacked by masked shooters and fire-bombers.
Only one spit away from a hot-spot called Le Flash
It makes you put 2+2 = Blood-Fued
Also, the FLASH is adjacent to the cycle track between Ugine and Faverges.
Thanks M
your pointing out Le Flash
may be instrumental in helping us think through
the Blood-Fueud of Lathuile /Doussard /Faverges
Now who would be the owners of Le Flash.
you will note that neighbours of Le Flash are both timber merchants
and Carpenters, which could also be significant.
The person at the head of the gang who killed Nicole Communal-Tournier was described as a carpenter from Doussard.
The husband of Nicole worked in the timber extraction industry.
Lots of themes are starting to coalesce
woodland
Timber
Carpenter
Camping
Chalet rental
Chalet construction
Fire starting
Blood-Fued
intimidation
guns
Murder
Cycling
Cycle track from Ugine to Faverges
night venues