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Forget about everything until Juicy Juicy and M & M come back from their seaside retreats.
Chevaline can wait. Others can provide roadside attractions in the meantime. WTF***
James, what about ONF4?
James
I may ‘believe’ some factlets that conflict in your timeline or you think are mutually exclusionary for other reasons.
I think that ONF2 ‘turned LMC around’ then watched him set off downhill and followed him at a slower pace until they lost sight of him (and when ONF2 passed through martinet parking there was nobody there).
So were they in close proximity on the way down? Depends on your view. Within sight for maybe 400m or so then out of sight. But the combe is windy so out-of-sight need not be very far in absolute terms.
I also think that irrespective of whether or not ONF2 drove down the route “completely” the “WBM/ZAH” (“ONF3″) vehicle would have been “the nearest “ONF” vehicle to the car park” at the time of the shootings.
Essentially, I think this is the case because, post LMC discovery, I have revised my thinking on the timings.
The following is a rough outline of my current views to ‘enable’ this discusssion (and not as something definitive to be picked apart).
15:05 ONF1 sees LMC then BMW 4×4
15:15 ONF2 sees LMC and turns him around
15:28 ONF3 crosses SAH
15:31 SAH arrives at le martinet parking
15:31 ONF3 crosses WBM
15:32 LR call to SM
15:35 commotion starts
15:38 last shot fired
15:40 WBM crosses MC
15:43 WBM arrives at le martinet parking
15:48 PB makes first successful 999 call at request of WBM
GIP
Yep, I pretty much go with that sequence of events.
The only point I’m making is, “how did ONF2 miss SAH and WBM ?”
If they turned off the route, then all well and good. That’s how they managed to only see SM. He was much further ahead of WBM. And he was beaten to the car park by SAH. That’s what I believe.
But if I consider that ONF2 (who hasn’t said anything) drove down the route and completed it…and still only saw SM, then there is an issue.
Quite a big one.
That would mean the “encounter” at the hairpin happened much later. However, nothing changes in the sequence of events (only the time).
The “up shot” would produce an “either/or” situation.
Either the MC “loitered” for much longer in the area around the car park.
Or it was another MC that passed WBM.
Neither the ONF2 unit or MC has said anything. EM has released nothing.
Which ever way it is cut, there has to be a straight forward reason as to “why” ONF2 missed SAH and WBM.
James
I go for “it was another MC that passed WBM“.
Slightly off-topic, if a lad is large for his age such that when clad in a MC helmet, jacket, gloves etc. he could be mistaken for an adult, then what about the reverse scenario?
Many kids are, shall we say, ‘hefty’ these days.
Could an adult kitted out in a similar fashion on a yooth style enduro bike be mistaken for a large lad?
Why were all these ONF peeps driving around the same area at the same time what were they supposed to be doing ?
GIP
In answer… I guess so. A small(ish) bloke, wearing a helmet and “yoot” style clothes. You’d just think “that’s a teenager”.
But the bike that passed WBM had carriers on the side ? It wasn’t a trials bike ? (I need to check WBM’s interview again).
The other thing is, if an assassin arrived at a pre determined point, on a motorbike…you’d think he’d hide that motorbike. Not “be seen” and “get stopped by” other people.
It all pretty much depends on whether or not ONF2 made the complete trip down the Combe D’Ire or turned off….
….and what the MC from Lyon has to say about what he did (and saw).
Guess what !
That information we don’t have !!! Eric will have it tho !
You have to admire Eric. He leaks information, but it maybe that the real crucial information….is well and truly held back.
Just another point on “did they turn off or not”.
If the ONF people started out that morning from a “home base” (arriving there and picking up their “works van” for the day), then it would hold that they would return there.
If ONF1 and ONF3 came down the Combe D’Ire “completely”, then it would seem logical that ONF2 did the same thing.
We know that WBM and SAH were on that climb, but were not spotted by ONF2.
Therefore… I assume that WBM and SAH had not entered the Combe D’Ire (as GIP noted a few posts back).
So… if (big “IF”) MC ONF2 and the MC(L) had left, then MC(WBM) could be MC(X) ? And yet Parry (in his book) does allude to this ? But would have studied all possibilities and publish something along those lines IF he had an incline that a “second MC” was possible ?
Pink
They were supposed to be working but they were actually all knocking off early. . Er, I mean doing their usual rounds to ensure the integrity of le foret and Le Reserve de Bauges which, coincidently, just happens to be the quickest way home for them.
Please don’t think that I am anti french in any way. For the avoidance of doubt I am jealous. It sounds like a great job.
Whats not to like? A Landy as a company car. Workplace on your doorstep. Minimal or non-existant supervision.
What’s the worst that can happen? The annual stocktake reveals that you have ‘lost some trees’ again. Oo la la!
OK so most of your colleagues are not ‘people persons’ and the pay isn’t great but there must be opportunities to make some extra cash.
@GIP Three of them though on a road that goes nowhere and even then they missed all the action ?
Just to help focus everybody’s minds, this is MM on his minicross bike in June 2012
http://postimg.org/image/vqjh4wgpv/
One could easily mistake him for an adult if solely judging by his frame, but, particularly if you imagine him sitting down on that bike monkey-upon-grindstone-stylee, there is no way that anybody other than a journalist would mistake that a for “real” motorbike.
Yes,
why would you have three forestry vehicles / units,
so close together but not actually together.
If they were cutting down trees,
they would all be in line of sight of each other, working together.
If they were just individual units driving about to make sure there was no forest rule braking, why three separate units.
That would be prohibitively expensive, even for Socialist France,
unless a shout had gone up.
I assume these vehicles use a compatible radio system with either or both
the police / sapeurs-pompiers,
so, perhaps, something was known to be happening, before the Slaughter of the Horses?
I just had a thought, what if this business, was in some way known about, in advance, by an organ of the FRENCH STATE, the Forest People were alerted, to keep people away from Le Martinet, so that’s why they moved on LMC, that’s why there were three units, not that they would be told serrious shit was going to be happening, if the police had been buzzing about in several units, the business people would have given the venue a miss but a few men in forest trucks would be unworrying.
James
I like Parry’s book but there are some gaps in it which I hope will be filled in a future edition. Hopefully a final edition which details the discovery of, and the bringing to justice of, the killer.
These gaps must have been left for good reasons. Not to perturb the investigation would be one, not getting sued would be another. To me it seems probable that Parry quotes Maillaud extensively for both these reasons.
So, if Parry doesn’t allude to something it may be that it is still being investigated. It’s vague corollory of, if Eric announces something surprising and talks at length about it, then it has been investigated in depth and there is no mileage in it.
In theory it looks legit because they had moved a MC for being where it shouldn’t be and ignored people who were not breaking rules apart from GG and that was harmless he is local and needs somewhere to practice.
I did wonder if they moved MC on for a reason but as they didn’t hang around I doubt it.
Criminal intent is suspected in two fires which broke out at a petrochemical facility near Marseilles airport on Tuesday as France celebrated its Bastille Day national holiday, a source close to the French government said.
The fires came after an incident last month in which a suspected Islamist beheaded his boss and tried to blow up an industrial gas plant in the suburbs of the southeast city of Lyon. There was however no indication of a link between the two.
“The simultaneous explosion of the tanks, which are spaced about 500 metres (yards) from each other, is not the result of a technical accident, the source said of the incident at a plant run by New York-listed LyondellBasell industries (LYB.N).
“The thesis of criminal intent is clearly being considered,” the source added.
Marseilles authorities said no one had been injured and a company spokesman said both fires, which earlier triggered a vast smoke plume in the sky of France’s second largest city, had been extinguished by midday.
“The facility is running under normal conditions,” the spokesman said.
Another spokesperson refused to communicate output figures but said LyondellBasell employed around 1,000 permanent staff and around the same number of contractors in the facility located in the town of Berre-l’Etang.
On its website, the company describes the “Berre petrochemical cluster” as “one of the largest petrochemical complexes in the south of France.”
France is on top security alert after the Lyon attack, which itself came five months after 17 people were killed in Paris by Islamist militants who targeted a satirical weekly and a Jewish foodstore in the French capital.
The fires came a week after explosives, detonators and 40 grenades were stolen from an army base in the nearby town of Miramas. So far, however, there was no evidence of a link between them and the thefts.
Lyondellbasell said the fires broke out around 3:00 am local (0100 GMT) in petrol containers. It said it was doing all it could to limit the environmental damage to the vicinity.
The local Bouches-du-Rhône department said the smoke plume did not pose immediate health risks and that air traffic at nearby Marseilles Provence airport was unaffected.
Michel Cadot, prefect of the local Bouches-du-Rhône authority, told French radio an investigation was underway.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/07/14/uk-france-fire-intent-idUKKCN0PO0S420150714
MN
You wrote “so, perhaps, something was known to be happening”
Yeah knocking off time
That works at so many levels.
I did go down this (metaphorical) road myself. The radio system is likely to be TETRAPOL. It probably could be interoperable with other agencies but whether it actually has been setup to be so, I could not establish.
Why posit a conspiritation when slackness will suffice?
Actually we know one of these green 4x4s and a MB went up via Chevaline before SAH because the builder said so I don’t think its clear what time that was .
On the other hand one of the papers also said BM had seen a 4×4 and MC speeding towards the scene I took that to be a mistake and they either meant away from the scene or had confused BM with the builder but who knows its like a merry go round and I am getting dizzy.
“Lt-Col Vinnemann said that the Briton had seen ‘various cars leaving the scene including a 4×4’.
It has also emerged that he told police that – before arriving at the murder scene – he saw a green 4×4 and a motorbike speeding towards it.”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2199670/Saad-Al-Hilli-shooting-French-Alps-Was-hitman-Each-British-victims-shot-TWICE-cyclist-witness-FIVE-times.html
I think it about time for Eric Maillaud to tell the public, are they
still looking for E-FIT-SKETCH
bearded motorcyclist, with the special side-opening helmet
or was that a 13 delay red herring?
Eric should tell us who gave the description to the police artist?
Eric should tell us is this the likeness of the unnamed motorcyclist from Lyon
or is it of a different motorcyclist or was it nmade to look like Eric Devouassoux to he could be their “Patsie”?
If Eric,
actually wants the help of the public to track down the killer/s of the Slaughter of the Horses,
he has to start being specific.
Can anyone actually think of a good reason why Eric Maillaud might not want
to catch the killer/s and bring them to trial?
REUTERS-FRANCE-UNITED KINGDOM
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/07/15/uk-edf-parliament-idUKKCN0PP16T20150715
French state-owned utility EDF (EDF.PA) expects to take a final investment decision on Britain’s 16 billion pound Hinkley Point nuclear power plant after the summer, its chief executive said on Wednesday.
“We are fairly hopeful we will be able to take what is called a final investment decision on this project for two EPR reactors after the summer pause,” CEO Jean-Bernard Levy told lawmakers in France’s lower house of parliament.
Austria launched legal action earlier this month against the European Commission over its backing of British plans for the development in southwest England.
For a project costing £16,000,000,000
“fairly hopeful”
doesn’t seem that positive?
The EPR is the Great White Hope for FRANCE,
they want to flog it around the World, yet not a single EPR plant is yet running.
Surely knocking off time is not 3.15pm in FRANCE?
If it is, it is no wonder their country is going down the drain.
MN There is a 35 hour working week in France I don’t know how it works I m guessing there might be a shift system.
It wouldn’t surprise me if one of the green vehicles called in the emergency as there was some talk of it being known on the radio net whatever that is and there was a green 4×4 parked at the bottom of the CDI when the interviews were being given they disappeared that picture I think .
There was also a young policemen hanging onto a mountain bike for dear life whilst guarding the bottom of the CDI which I was thrilled to find when I was looking for the bikes ,my best guess is that it was BM’s bike and they were told to look after it for collection when he went in for questioning.
On SAH.
I asked TP about the LFR/14h40 versus FIB/15h17 mystery
TP replied :
« Mayor said to me route was wrong turning. Possible pause on way. But he was wrong about last photo building »
It is a bit cryptic but it has the words
« Pause » … which indicates they are aware of the 14h40/15h17 ‘time gap’
« wrong turn » … which is weird(!) because you can *not* make a ‘wrong turn’. You can turn, but you can’t make a wrong turn. Check the map/routes yourself. It is the same problem with SM, who supposedly was ‘lost’!? We’ll he wasn’t, he couldn’t have been. Both SAH, and certainly SM went on the 3 km Combe d’Ire stretch in full conscious, there was never a ‘wrong turn / lost’ thingy.
Btw, I dont understand TP’s last sentence (I asked about this, but TP has never replied)
I think it is rather important for Eric Maillaud to clear up the question of the bearded biker
with the side-opening helmet.
As far as I an aware, this is the only “picture” of a person to have been put out into the public domain in connection with the 05/09/2012 massacre.
Is the E-FIT-SKETCH of the bearded motorcyclist with the side opening helmet,
a descriptive image of the still unnamed 95% presumed innocent honourable man from Lyon?
Or is it of another motorcyclist?
It is quite a simple question
The question of the E-FIT-SKETCH of the bearded motorcyclist with the side-opening helmet
must be preying on the minds of the locals.
Either they can discount this information because after three years the person in question has been found and is 95% innocent of being the murderer
or there is another eXplanation?
Huh ?
« Mayor said to me route was wrong turning. Possible pause on way. But he was wrong about last photo building »
Breaking this down….
1. The mayor said the route SAH took was a “wrong turn” ?
(And how would the mayor know !)
After the FIB photo was taken, SAH retraces his route (instead of continuing in his direction of travel towards Chevaline) …but instead of driving back past LFR, he carries on ahead, thus heading up to the Martinet car park. Is this what the mayor believes ?
2. Possible pause…
(Again, how does the mayor know ? How can you tell if SAH paused)
During the drive up the route, SAH paused…but did not turn around. If the mayor believes SAH knew he was on the “wrong road” and that he “paused”, did he not think it odd that SAH dodn’t turn around ?
Here… it makes me think, is there something about “the time” which they are trying to “make fit” ? For example, the length of time SAH was on the route or at the car park ?
3. But he was wrong about last photo building.
(I take it “he” means “the mayor”)
The mayor was wrong about the last photo. As in, it wasn’t the last photo ? The time of the last photo ? That family photo wasn’t taken at the Flat Iron Building ?
The mayor states that the photo was taken at the flat Iron Building at 15.17 ….but TP knows that this isn’t true ?
Wiki in French seems to give more information than Wiki in English?
Ce portrait-robot a été élaboré à l’époque par deux gardes de l’Office national des forêts
So, according to TWO GUARDS, the robot potrait is a likeness of the man they spoke with?
Ao unless I’ve gone potty, that would mean the likeness should be of the yet unnamed, honourable business man from Lyon?
Could one off you run through this thinking for me.
This is an important point.
@James
The ‘wrong turn’ is just simply BS. I guess some people (like the Mayor) reason that Martinet is a weird place for SAH with kids … some he (SA) must have taken a ‘wrong turn’
Again, this is BS because there is no turn. If SAH was not going for some meeting, then the only ‘wrong’ thing SAH did was to drive beyond the ‘dangerous road’ sign ending at Martinet, a place where there is exactly ZERO to see for 7 yr old kids (let alone a 4 yr old kid)
The ‘pause’ however is significant. It means that the Mayor probably knows both the 14h40’ish time of LFR and the 15h17 time of the FIB/Last picture … and as both location are only a mere 2 kms apart, the Mayor reasons that SAH must have ‘paused’ somewhere
… of course the 1 million dollar question is … WHERE did SAH pause between LFR and FIB (let alone the weirdness of the impossible route!)
The Mayor, like TP, and I guess everybody else, is simply stumped by those 3 locations
1. LFR
2. FIB
3. Martinet
And the Mayor can only utter words like ‘wrong turn’ and ‘pause’
No clue … just like us:)
(who knows maybe the double visit is the answer … it explains 1 and 2 … but not the ‘reason’ of 3)
@Max
The “wrong turn” is clear rubbish.
BUT he (SAH) could have just wanted to drive up there.
The curious thing IS the “pause”.
It has to be the statement by LFR and the FIB pic that is causing the issue.
Assuming the FIB pic is real (I have doubts, but they may be unfounded), then there is a possibility of a “second” visit. However, SAH wasn’t spotted by ONF1. It is a puzzle (especially as SAH was seen ascending by WBM…if that is correct).
The FIB pic says that SAH was at the Martinet at no time before 1517.
That being the “last time” they went there OR the only time they went there.
So…. 1440 LFR. 1517 FIB. 1545 the Martinet.
Or 1440 LFR. 1517 FIB. Pause. 1545 the Martinet.
You see…. if LFR is right (and FIB didn’t happen), the SAH would have been at the Martinet for a “long time”, with the killer hidden away in close proximity.
BUT…. that can’t work as WBM and ONF1 statements conflict with that idea.
A true puzzle indeed.