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@Max
“But he was wrong about last photo building”
What does TP mean ?
@James
I haven’t a clue what TP means with that last sentence. I guess he=Mayor Bertholet, but the rest … I don’t know what that means
The double visit is simple
14h40 LFR
14h50 ONF1 sees X5 = SAH
14h55 SAH turns around at Martinet, to Doussard, over route du Moulin
15h10 SAH is back in Doussard
15h15 SAH goes up again, over route du Moulin, now taking pictures
15h17 FIB last picture
15h25 SAH on Combe d’Ire, seen by WBM
15h30 SAH at Martinet again
Other subtle variants are possible, but this is the main idea.
If the double visit is real (And I still like the idea, because it aligns 4 elements), then the BIG question is … WHY?
– Is it simple like the ‘cuddly toy’?
– Or is it secret like a (rescheduled) meeting?
(Another intriguing thing, in case of the double visit, would be that ONF1’s MC, who probably is LMC, would perhaps have seen SAH (aka X5) coming up. So how could LMC not remember this? … I find the whole LMC story very hard to believe)
To add …
The ‘pause’ = SAH’s first visit to Martinet
– – –
Sometimes I have the feeling they (EM & co) already know SAH went 2 times to Martinet, because this solution to LFR/14h40, ONF1/BMWX5, FIB/1517 is not that hard to find. But, in that case, it seems that they (EM & co) simply do not want to make it public.
James
SAH being at le martinet parking for a long time surely would have been remembered by Zainab.
The relevant items in my ‘working timeline’ are:-
15:17 FIB photo
15:31 SAH arrives at le martinet parking
15:35 commotion starts
15:38 last shot fired
For what it is worth, in my timeline SAH effectively has to get back into his car almost immediately after the FIB photo and drive directly up to le martinet parking.
Allowing Zeena to ‘drive’ the car whilst seated on his lap would not cause a significant delay because SAH probably would not have driven much faster anyway on that road for the comfort of his passengers.
The timing is do-able but tight.
Anyway, yesterday around this time I made a post which has since disappeared. . .
I dont want to be banned, so I won’t repeat it in case there is some superinjunction out there however FYI the subject was ES ES TEE EL.
@GIP @Max
ZAH being at the car park “a long time” or “being there twice” would be remembered, I don’t doubt.
So, either way….they know, we don’t.
Note. The women in the car were still wearing their seat belts. Had they just arrived or just leaving.
The problem is, if SAH had been there awhile (before the shooting), then the obvious “prime victim” was someone else.
If SAH had been there “just” before…and returned there later, then it looks like “he was expected”….and therefore would be an obvious “primary victim”.
The thing is…. we are not being told the proper story (either way). And that is “odd”.
There were reports of the Still unnamed honourable business person motorcyclist from Lyon
had driven up and down the combe
five times that day.
If there is no view, you cannot land or take off there.
Why is the story of the
unnamed honourable business person / motorcyclist / parapentise
believed?
@ All
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU6OOSjSwvA
Either Non Élucidé have the world’s best prop department or they were allowed to look at some of the actual evidence. (For example, there was a list of SAH’s phone calls shown. I have checked all the prefixes in that list. They all seemed good and true, which is more than I would expect from a French TV props department.) Anyway, they also showed these photos on the display of a (or the actual?) digital camera. I don’t recall whether the image taken at the Flat-Iron Building was either the first or last of the photos that they scrolled through, but I distinctively remember some eerie “Blair Witch Project”-type photos showing the adult women against a background of dense woodland.
I suppose I shall have to watch the documentary again in order to establish the relative position of the FIB photo, but if my memory serves me right, the timestamp of the 15:17 FIB photo may be correct, it may even be the last photo showing SAH and Iqbal, but it was not the last photo taken on that camera. Those “Blair Witch Project”-type photos may have been taken on the way up the Combe d’Ire, or even at the Martinet.
@Peter
Around 32m00 into the NE YT video
Imho the NE photo’s are fake/props
1. NE says the 3 photo’s were taken between 15h12 – 15h17 in Arnand
2. NE says that after those pictures SAH passed LFR, and they throw in a 15h25 time for this
I think #1 is correct. Why should they get this wrong. Pictures have timestamps, and at least the FIB picture has a very definite location.
My problem is #2 … because it introduces both a weird route problem AND it shifts the 14h40 given by LFR towards 15h25. This is not explained in NE. To me it just doesn’t sound correct. They assume some weird route and tweak a time because they don’t fully understand what happend, because if they DID understand what happened they would explain.
Giving this a bit more thought. NE says the 3 pictures were taken 15h12 – 15h17 in Arnand.
… Arnand
Now 15h12 – 15h17 is 5 minutes. They were at FIB, that much is sure. It has been argued (Rizet) that the FIB picture was the last picture (15h17)
Now, a famliy gets out of the car. A family with kids. How long does a famliy walk around a nice location to take a picture? Well, at least some minutes. Right?
That means that those 3 pictures very probably were taken at the same location, namely FIB …
… because I don’t see a family relocate 2 times, get out, get in the car, drive in 5 minutes.
Nope, I think they got out at FIB around 15h10, they walked around a bit, near the stream and the weird building. A few minutes ticked away and the SAH’s took 3 pictures in that time.
Btw, this doesn’t help my ‘double visit’ scenario. But the 3 pictures at 1 location (FIB) idea sounds good.
Maybe it DOES help the ‘double visit’ scenario:)
In short :
– 14h40. LFR sees SAH going up to Martinet
– 14h50. ONF1 sees X5/SAH
– 14h55. SAH at Martinet. Nothing to see. They turn around. Cuddly toy forgotten
– 15h10. SAH at FIB. They get out. Take 3 pictures.
Zainab/Zeena say ‘Daddy, I forgot my cuddly toy’
– 15h20. SAH goes up again
– 15h25. WBM sees SAH
– 15h30. SAH at Martinet. Get’s out with Zainab to collect/search for cuddly toy.
= = =
In fact, 3 pictures taken at 1 (FIB) location, makes this ‘cuddly toy’ scenario a bit more plausible:)
Interesting quote by BV in the NE video at 43m30s about WBM’s MC and ONF2’s MC (of which, at the time, everybody thought it was the same MC)
« Cette moto a forcement(!) vu quelque chose »
In other words, BV, before LMC was traced, reasoned that this MC *MUST* have seen something.
Now, with LMC traced, the story is that he saw nothing (important)
The only sensible conclusion from this is that LMC is *not* WBM’s MC (it still can be, and probably is ONF2’s MC)
@ Max
I have counted five photos shown on that camera in the NE video, neither of which had the slightest similarity to the FIB photo later published in the press. Thus, either (a) these photos were fake, or (b) they were genuine photos taken earlier by the AHs, or (c) they were genuine photos taken later than the FIB photo.
I suppose the most likely answer is that they were fake. In theory, there is also an option (d), namely that the AH took a whole lot of photos at the FIB and that these are some of them, but then the “SAH” in the figure is wearing different clothing than in the published FIB photo.
re Areva: @ 15.30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELQHUwvcb_U
@Peter.
Did the court case refer directly to the number of photos that were leaked?
Both of Mollier and of the Al Hilli family?
I think that NE is filmed in a very “arty” way. It seems to be their style.
“A close up shots of a frozen leaf….then the camera pans across the valley down to the interviewer and interviewee standing on the snow covered road”
Seems NE have a pretty good budget, unlike CrimeWatch UK (I swear the actor playing the armed robber last week….was a policeman the week before).
@Max
I recall the debates that went on when the “timing” of the Arnand photos was released.. as they conflicted with LFR’s time.
It was later when the location of the “1517 photo” was released things became more confusing (because FIB isn’t in Arnand, nor is it a “rose covered building”).
The problem was, SAH couldn’t have been in Arnand at 1517 and then passing LFR at 1440. Of course placing SAH at the FIB makes it “a little more possible” of course (from whence then comes the “wrong turn” theory).
One thing from all that is…. the police MUST BELIEVE the LFR timing.
Or at the very least, are “taking it seriously”.
Personally I’m “50/50” on the whole FIB photo. The bottom of that shirt just looks odd. But I don’t understand why they would “put out” (even if it was “leaked”) a photo like that, if it were not true.
If the police believe the LFR sighting, then why do they not say “it is possible SAH went to the Martinet twice” (surely they would know this, if that had happened).
A “way out” thought I had was…
….if the Al Hilli family had passed LFR at 1440 and continued up to the Martinet, where they then took photos, would that put pressure on the killer (if hidden) ? Would releasing (“leaking”) a “family photo” say “we have the photos the family took when at the Martinet” but we don’t know who you are ? Such a situation would mean SAH had arrived (the first time ?) much earlier.
The problem is… WBM saw them driving up the Combe D’Ire (so “two visits”) and they weren’t spotted by ONF1 (unless a red 5 series touring looks like a dark X5 !).
Peter
Props for noting the list of SAH’s phone calls shown in the video.
Please can you check that the prefixes in that list are consistent with the narrative that SAH was catching-up with friends and colleagues in the general area, CERN and in Switzerland. He was apparently also making calls related to his father’s bank account and the disposal of the property in Spain.
Thus I would expect;
1) Calls to numbers in french departments nearby.
1) Calls to numbers in french departments near CERN.
3) Calls to numbers in Switzerland.
4) Calls to numbers in Spain.
5) Possibly some numbers in the UK.
I think that there may be more mileage in scouring the TV programmes for screenshots of FB’s computer showing the IM chat logs.
These chat logs, unless modified by FB, would be primary material and it strikes me that FB would likely be displaying the most pertinent material.
GIP
Oddly I was just reading them today ! 47.26 on peter link.
@ Good In Parts, 17 Jul, 2015 – 3:14 pm
I take it all back. The itemised phone bill, shown at 50:48 in the Non Élucidé video, has what I took to be a whole bunch of “well-formed” UK domestic numbers on it (no overseas numbers). However, on a second viewing, the item “Messagerie vocale” on it should have been a giveaway: that itemised phone bill was just a prop.
Sorry about that 🙁
@ TIM 2.17pm
very interesting, I did not know David Cameron had dealt in South African nuclear weapons.
It would be great if we could put some straight questions to Eric Maillaud,
of course he could reply “No Comment”. That reply could also be constructive.
However, it should not be beyond the wit of the BRITISH POLICE to put such questions to Eric Maillaud, after all, we have been told it is a joint operation!!!!!
Eric, could you tell us who supplied the information to the police artist, which lead to the picture of the bearded motorcyclist with the distinctive side-opening helmet?
Is the person depicted still being sought?
Can you now tell us how many weapons were fired at or near Le Martinet on 05/09/2012?
Can you specify how many times each victim was shot?
Can you tell us which bicycle was Sylvain Mollier riding?
Can you tell us from where did Sylvain start his last journey?
Can you tell us what reason did Sylvan give Claire Schutz, for his outing that day?
Can you tell us have you 100% excluded the as yet
unnamed business man / motorcyclist / parapentist from any involvement?
Thank you Eric for being so straight with us.
Peter & James
Khadim’s will as shown in NE also seems to me to be a prop!
Looking through the IM chat log at approx 47:30 there is one entry that stands out to me:-
25/12/2011 18:29:12 sa3d07: i put half this house in his name when my mother died
Firstly, this suggests that I was wrong about the dipute dating from Feb 2012 (as per cousin Hussein in Bhagdad). It is clearly fully developed by 25/12/2011 as evidenced by the chat log.
Secondly, the claim made in the chat log about putting half the house in Zaid’s name should be testable. There should be some documentation confirming this in the Land Registry.
I seem to recall reading somewhere (maybe on a forum) that although SAH said that he had altered the ownership, he had not in fact done so and he would not in fact have been able to do so, because he (SAH) had not been left the house in its entirety by his mother. Anybody else remember this?
Tuesday’s arrest is the first to be made in France and has been seen as a breakthrough, taking place 18 months after the murders.
The French man arrested was a former municipal police officer in the town of Menthon-Saint-Bernard, the local prosecutor confirmed to AFP.
“The man, if it is indeed the same person we think, was dismissed in June” from the police force, Antoine de Menthon, the mayor of Menthon-Saint-Bernard said.
He is the second person to be arrested after Mr al-Hilli’s brother, Zaid al-Hilli, had his bail cancelled by Surrey Police last month because there was not enough evidence to charge him. The brothers had allegedly fallen out about their inheritance.
The man was arrested at his home in Lathuile and taken to a police station in Chambery for questioning. The GIGN, a special operations unit of the French Armed Forces, was involved.
Lathuile is the site of another unsolved murder after a woman was shot in her home, at a campsite, in November last year. It is also where William Brett Martin, the Briton who discovered the murders while on a bike ride, has a holiday home.
Also on Tuesday, French police investigators were searching the nearby town of Talloires, scanning the ground with a metal-detector and shovels. A police source said the operation in Talloires was linked to Chevaline.
Surrey Police said the latest arrest came from French and not UK investigations.
Eric Maillaud, the local prosecutor, said the man was arrested following information from witnesses after a photo-fit image of a biker seen nearby was released in November.
He said about 40 “useful” witness accounts were being verified and Tuesday’s arrest “may not be the only one”.
“For the moment it is impossible to say whether he played any role in the shooting. It is simply the result of the release of the photofit but it is strictly impossible to say any more at this stage,” he told the Telegraph.
“It could turn out that he has absolutely nothing to do with this affair,” said Mr Maillaud.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10647731/Alps-shooting-former-policeman-arrested-as-final-al-Hilli-family-photo-emerges.html
Well from this write up in the Telegraph quoting our old chum Eric Maillaud,
it would seem Eric Devouassoux was arrested because he strongly resembles the photofit.
Now pardon me for being just a little bit suspicious,
I think the wool is being pulled over our eyes.
Who gave the description of the motorcyclist to the police artist?
Is it a likeness of the Lyon motorcyclist?
Is the Lyon motorcyclist a different person to Eric Devouassoux?
Or is it a MONUMENTAL CO_INCIDENCE that Eric Devouassoux and the unnamed honourable person from Lyon are bloody identical?
GIP
Interesting, SAH accuses ZAH (in the IM log) of “tax evasion” (as well as fraud). ZAH is an accountant. Was SAH accusing ZAH of “personally” evading tax…or for a company ? And how wou he know.
Also of interest, it seems FB didn’t know KAH had a place in Spain.
He knew SAH well ?
James
Well, Zaid had been living in Claygate for some time, so he may have left documents (or a computer) there when he and Saad ‘fell out’.
I did wonder what kind of documents SAH had to hide, maybe they weren’t his documents but belonged to his brother. Do you remember a friend of SAH as being quoted saying that he could quite imagine SAH building a ‘false wall’ behind which stuff could be hidden.
Another strange thought occured to me, what if the valuable antiques that SAH accused ZAH of stealing from the Claygate home were not missing at all but were hidden along with the documents behind this notional ‘false wall’.
Zaid strenuously denied taking or knowing the whereabouts of these antiques.
An even stranger thought occurs to me now, what if it were Ikbal (or even Suhaila) who had taken and sold these antiques?
My latest thoughts about the 3 pictures (15h12-15h17) is that they were taken at the same location, namely FIB
This, if true, has a subtle side effect …
Because in case the pictures were taken at different locations, the timestamps would indicate the direction of the route of SAH. Was SAH going upstream … or downstream?
But, if the 3 pictures were taken at 1 location, these pictures can’t be used anymore to determine if SAH was going upstream or downstream!
🙂 (so simple)
One thing is for sure. In the offcial version, LFR comes after FIB. This means that after FIB, SAH went *downstream* and turned left in Arnand to turn left again near Chevaline, which would bring him past LFR, direction Martinet
– – –
In my ‘double visit’ version. We have a complete different sequence, namely : LFR – Martinet – FIB – Martinet (again)
The first Martinet, explaining the ‘pause’
– – –
There is another version, supported by Lynda. The sequence is : LFR – (turn left) FIB – Martinet
In Lynda’s version, SAH would have ‘paused’ at FIB (say 30 minutes)
Where did you see this claim I haven’t heard it before that I can recollect?
@Good In Parts
17 Jul, 2015 – 7:53 pm
“Another strange thought occured to me, what if the valuable antiques that SAH accused ZAH of stealing”
Where did you see this claim I haven’t heard it before that I can recollect?
I don’t like the official version
I prefer Lynda’s solution or my own solution. My solution would explain away the X5, because the X5 becomes SAH (first visit)
I think in time it would be possible Zainab will remember this part. If Lynda’s or my scenario happened, I hope one day Zainab will remember this.
Pink
The missing antiques are mentioned in Parry.
I shall dig out the page number and the quote tomorrow.
Eine gute Idee für unseren freund EM …
https://youtu.be/hVySW61nPf4