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Are we saying now that there was a market for expensive antiques in the Haute Savoie, perhaps by some wealthy individuals with certain FBI agents (and possibly hired PIs) on their tails? If so, that might take us back to the beginning, and some arrests made a few weeks after “Chevaline”. This could also explain what seems to have been confusion at the scene of the crime.
@Max
The Sun newspaper showed a picture of a house where one of the photo’s was taken and the posters on here identified it as the Mill House at Ru de la Post ,in this recent street view you can see there are flowers on the corner of the bridge that is by Mill House, on the original street view there was a children’s playground in view and the speculation was maybe they took the kids in to that.
Right by the Mill house is a sign saying I think it is 1 mile or just over a mile to Chevaline I can’t quite make it out .
I am pointing it out because it may help with determining probable routes apologies if you already know this .
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.774801,6.224589,3a,90y,201.34h,61.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBSoTUe3MhxOy72aWdm9W8Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
@ GIP Thanks ,my own fault for not buying the book.
MAX just checked the other road by the flowers and it goes to Arnand so probably not much help after all.
I always thought the official version was….
LFR – (left turn) FIB – Martinet
Shocked to hear the official version is actually….
FIB – Chevaline/Arnand area – (left turn) LFR – Martinet
Simply put….
1440 LFR. 1517 FIB. 1545 Martinet.
….gives a “most logical” explanation (in sequence).
Clearly, the police are 1. taking LFR’s statement seriously 2. struggling with the “time” element with his statement included.
1 LFR – FIB – Martinet (28 minute time lapse).
2 LFR – Martinet – FIB – Martinet (no time lapse)
3 FIB – chevaline/Arnand – LFR – Martinet (LFR NOT @ 1440 “official view”)
4 LFR – Martinet (no FIB @ 1517)
1 = Normal/possible time lapse
2 = Rushed photo at FIB
3 = A bit of a bizarre situation
4 = Faked 1517 pic. Odd sighting by WBM. No sighting by ONF1.
I thought I’d put “4” in, as it is just “out there” AND this case is so weird, you just never know !
Mind you…
…if the vehicle ascending and sighted by ONF1 was the same as the one ascending and sighted by WBM…. then SAH could have been at the Martinet for some time already.
BUT the MC and the ONF2 unit have to pass through the Martinet and “see” the Al Hilli car (they say they didn’t).
Then later Mollier climbing (they say they did).
@ Good In Parts, 17 Jul, 2015 – 6:18 pm
I seem to recall reading somewhere (maybe on a forum) that although SAH said that he had altered the ownership, he had not in fact done so and he would not in fact have been able to do so, because he (SAH) had not been left the house in its entirety by his mother. Anybody else remember this?
I remember that, too. Anyway, it would have been very, very unusual for the mother to leave the entire house to the younger son – unless she had bequeathed something of equal or greater value to the elder at the same time, in which case the conflict about the house would not have arisen.
Regarding the accusation of tax evasion against Zaid, I have a speculative explanation of what that might mean: Remember Dr Alabdi calling Zaid a “millionaire” in the TP book? Remember those other bank accounts in Jersey and Gurnsey associated with Kadhim? Finally, consider what Kadhim might have lived off during all those years since he left Iraq – certainly not that dormant account in Geneva.
My guess would be that Kadhim came to the UK with a whole lot more wonga than the Geneva money, and that he actively invested those other monies, assisted by Zaid. Perhaps he even ordered Zaid to become an accountant just so that Zaid could help him with his investments. As an accountant, Zaid would have known how to set up offshore shell companies, use those vehicles to invest in, say, the London property market, turn a quick profit and make the money disappear offshore again. Zaid might also have engaged in a bit of informal lending amongst the Iraqi expat community, providing startup capital for small businesses in exchange for very healthy interest rates.
As the younger son and as the son who sided with his mother against the estranged father, SAH probably would not have known all the details. All he would have known is that Zaid “managed” their father’s money, that there was a lot of money involved, and that the UK tax authorities were blissfully unaware of all this. That knowledge would have heightened the sense of injustice that he felt about his brother demanding his share of the family’s declared assets, even though the brother was in charge of their undeclared assets.
O.K.
William Brett Martin who has a house in LATHUILE stumbles across
the Slaughter of the Horses on 05/09/2012
thirteen months after 05/09/2012
An E-FIT-SKETCH of a distinctive, bearded, motorcyclist, wearing a special side-opening helmet is released to the public to assist the investigators of the Slaughter of the Horses in tracking down the murderer/s.
One week later,
Nicole Communal-Tournier is shot dead in her campsite-home in LATHUILE.
A few months later, the uncanny likeness of local eX-cop Eric Devouassoux
to the police E-FIT-SKETCH is noticed, and E.D. is picked up by armed men at his home in LATHUILE
If the investigators had this E-FIT-SKETCH
virtually from day one and as E.D. is a well known local & his inlaws live in Chevaline.
It begs the question, if the only reason you have brought in E.D. is because of his likeness to the SKETCH, why not bring him in for a chat, thirteen months earlier & maybe Nicole would not have been murdered.
Nopw we move on the the as yet unnamed Businessman / motorcyclist / parapentist from Lyon.
It is claimed that this person was in The Bauges for his hobby of hang gliding, it has been reported he made multiple rides on 05/09/2012 up and down the La Combe d’Ire,
yet it has also been said that you cannot take off with a hang glider nor land nor do you have a view from the site of the slaughter, so the question to LMC is what were you doing there?
Now on to the sticky matter of the E-FIT-SKETCH
this, we are now expected to believe is from information given by a pair of forest guards to the police artist and it is of the motorcyclist they stopped and spoke with on 05/09/2012, moments before the slaughtering happened.
So does that mean that the person they stopped and spoke with was Eric Devouassoux
or was it his Doppelgänger?
Peter
I agree with the last three paragraphs of your post above and also that it would have been very, very unusual for the mother to leave the entire house to the younger son. So, why did SAH believe what he apparently did believe?
An issue that you may be able to shed some light on is whether the divorce (or separation) of his parents had any legal effect on the property inheritance issue.
For example, OTTOMH, would a sharia divorce (with Kadhim going to live in spain) mean that his mom was legally ‘gifted’ the family home by default?
SAH who was still living at home would be the only true dependent of his mom because ZAH had already married and left home. Thus his mom could have believed that she fully owned the property and thus have promised it to her youngest son.
So where am I going with all this?
Basicaly, it seems to me that SAH somehow came to one or more mistaken beliefs about property and asset ownership and also the intentions of his brother towards him and those assets.
The central belief, as made clear in the chat log, was that SAH had been left the Claygate property in its entirety by his mother and that ZAH had somehow become a threat.
Now these ‘mistakes’ may have arisen through simple mis-understanding, mis-communication, clash of personalities, minor personality disorder (eg paranoia, splitting black) or something more complex such as ‘folie à deux’.
But ‘mistakes’, I think they were. I do not see any compelling evidence that ZAH acted with malice. There could perhaps have been malicious actions by another party for some other reason, which SAH mistakenly interpreted as being directed by ZAH.
My chain of logic continues with this over-arching mistaken worldview somehow leading SAH to take a course of action that precipitates the tragic events. He would not even have to actually ‘do’ anything. What matters is what he was perceived to be doing.
P.S. One key insight that you have given, is that SAH does appear to be systematically setting out a narrative of his worldview to both friends and relatives. You have also pointed out the cultural importance of persuading the extended family and the pressure it could bring to bear.
@ Good In Parts, 19 Jul, 2015 – 6:05 pm
There is a huge difference between divorce and separation in Sharia law: for as long as a couple remain married, the husband is responsible for providing for his wife, even if she is financially better-off than he is. By contrast, after a divorce, no such obligation exists either way, unless previously agreed upon in a prenuptial contract. I don’t think that Fasiha could have mistakenly believed that the Claygate house was entirely hers; I consider it more likely that Kadhim actually did sign it over to her at some point, either to get her off his back before relocating to Spain or because, like most canny tax-dodgers, he wanted to minimise the assets directly attributable to him.
Thus his mom could have believed that she fully owned the property and thus have promised it to her youngest son.
This is the bit that I have the most difficulty with. There is no way that she would have done that, unless she had bequeathed something of equal value to Zaid. Sharia rules on inheritance matters are extremely clear: her two sons would have been entitled to equal shares of her assets. The scope for discretion in these matters is very limited: at most one-third of a testator’s assets can be bequeathed according to his or her whim, the remaining two-thirds fall under sharia rules. The fact that SAH was still living at home and thus could be considered “dependent” is neither here nor there; it would have been the duty of his father and elder brother to support him as required.
SAH would have known the rules on inheritance as well as any other muslim. Unless he knew that Fasiha had bequeathed substantial other assets to Zaid (perhaps the contents of yet another offshore account), he could not have genuinely believed himself entitled to the Claygate house in its entirety. Indeed, in the chat log as quoted by Parry, he makes no such claim: “My offer was to take the Spanish flat of my father’s … take my half of the Chessington flat … and with the 200K my father has given u [Zaid] in the past that should settle it … just put back the house in my name.” This statement shows quite clearly that half of the house had, in fact, been signed over to Zaid after Fasiha’s death, and that SAH recognised that Zaid was entitled to half of it.
Interestingly, in the same chat, SAH claims to have discovered his father’s old bank statements, enabling him to prove that Zaid had indeed received 200K: “And he [Zaid] says father has given me nothing” (…) “But I have proved he has as I have found all the back [sic] statements of my father … it has been hard looking for the last 7 months.”
It says here http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/al-hilli-french-alps-murders-didnt-9315757
The mock-Tudor stockbroker-belt home had been half-owned by Saad and half by their mother Fasiha, who drew up a will assigning her share to Zaid. When she died in 2003, Zaid claims the brothers agreed on shared ownership. This broke down when their dad Kadhim, died at his home in Spain, in 2011. Because he had maintained the property while Zaid lived elsewhere, Saad believed he was entitled to sole ownership.
That makes sense. In the aforementioned chat (p. 136 in the Parry Bible), SAH accuses Zaid of having forged his signature on the deed with which Fasiha signed over her half of the property to Zaid in 1998. Yet that accusation is patently absurd, because a few lines earlier, SAH writes: “He has taken all the flat in Chessington as he bought it when I was away on holiday and I found out I was not even on the deeds.” Now, why would SAH feel entitled to a half share in this flat, given that he contributed nothing to the purchase price? The answer is clear: Kadhim’s money bought that flat and Kadhim would have wanted to split his gifts evenly between his two sons – just as he would have wanted them to split the Claygate house 50-50.
It is impossible to tell whether or not Zaid really tried to shortchange SAH (the fact that Zaid felt that the solicitor whom the brothers had asked to mediate sided with SAH suggests that there may be some truth to it), but those wild accusations that SAH levelled against his brother – fake wills, forged signatures, tax evasion, theft of valuables – surely are malicious exaggerations.
@James
The official version is e.g. in Non Elucide
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU6OOSjSwvA
Around 32m00
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/not-forgetting-the-al-hillis-continued/comment-page-18/#comment-539805
First FIB (15h15’ish)
Then LFR (15h20’ish) *uphill direction*
So the official version is
FIB – downstream to Arnand – Left turn – Left turn (Chevaline) – uphill – LFR – Martinet
This official version introduces 2(!) problems :
1. It corrupts LFR’s 14h40 time
2. It somehow has SAH going ‘back’ downstream from FIB. Why?? If SAH wanted to go to Martinet, why first go back?
Also the left turn in Arnand is not obvious, a sharp turn to take
https://deadzone61.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/www-google-ca_2015-07-20_11-05-50.png
Of course one could think of reasons, e.g. something blocking the road from FIB upstream. But there has never been any indication something like that happened, nor was it mentioned anywhere in the news or by EM
Btw, who says SAH was looking at the info board at Martinet?? We only assume this. But maybe SAH and Zainab went out of the car to quickly retrieve the object lost (Cuddly toy, who knows). Zainab was wandering near the stream. Why?
Btw, the Walibi parc thingy
I think Walibi was closed on the 5th. In september Walibi Rhone Alpes is only open in the week-ends (although I’m not 100% from the 2012 season)
There are also Parapente landing sites in Doussard,
either side of Route d’Annecy both adjacent to the Ugine cycle route.
@Max
How bizarre. They’ve sort of “slipped” that in.
FIB 1st. Then LFR. Then Martinet.
So they wish to take the “sighting” by LFR seriously, but not the time !
Clearly SAH knew about the Martinet, it is said he was told about it by “camp reception” (and maybe knew about it before).
Either way, it would be fair to assume he was heading there, or trying to find it.
If the “official” version has him heading there, first having a photo taken at FIB and then being seen by FFR… they must have to 1. ignore the timing stated by LFR and then 2. have SAH drive a unconventional route.. which they then have to say “he made a wrong turn”.
Basically, to make it fit… they have to discount half of some information then make assumptions/leaps of faith using that remaining information.
A “pick and choose” situation. All very bizarre.
@GIP et @Peter
Interesting conversation.
All I can say is… to me it looks like “Fat Bastard” didn’t know as much as we think about SAH (certainly “family business”).
Once SAH had begun his “investigation” into the family financials, he began shouting it from the rooftops.
Maybe someone heard.
However, if Sylvain Mollier was indeed cycling from Ugine to Le Martinet, the route for him may have been to go past the factory estate turning left at Bateaux ( large motor boats)
passing hotel Arcalod and via Arnand.
Thus not passing the two parapente landing fields in Doussard.
Did Eric Maillaud, specifically say from where Sylvain departed and what his route was?
If there is any truth in the idea that Eric Maillud is trying to solve this
heinous crime, you would expect him to do reconstructions of the build up.
So, he would get somebody to call Claire Schutz at her shop on a Wednesday at the exact time she has claimed Sylvain rang her on Wednesday 05/09/2012, she would have the same staff present in her shop, preferably with the same customers present and the same people in the adjacent fire station in Grignon.
Then Claire would come to Ugine along the same route she took that day.
Then a cyclist, would leave on the same bike that Sylvain was riding that day and best as possible match his route and rate of travel.
Has Eric Maillaud undertaken this exercise?
If not, we know Eric is not serious.
Has Eric Maillaud undertaken a line-up
with both the Lyon Motorcyclist
and Eric Devouassoux
both in the line-up at the SAME TIME?
If not, Eric is not serious
On the vehicles its a bit confusing I am not sure how much is down to translate .
Here are two links posted by Lynda
One says:
“the police said in a statement, it seeks to make contact with “the owner of a 4×4, right hand drive, possibly a gray BMW X5 ( or any dark color that can resemble it) was seen traveling along the I of Combe “at Chevaline September 5, 2012, the day of the crime,” between 3:30 p.m. 3:15 p.m. ET. ”
Investigators of the research section Chambery appeal to anyone who knows individuals who circulated that vehicle, “in the Annecy basin, previous or days following the date of the crime,” the statement from the gendarmerie.
“Sought-witnesses”, “not necessarily the perpetrators”
“The occupants of the vehicle are sought as witnesses, they are not necessarily the alleged perpetrators of the crime,” said an officer of the gendarmerie.
Read more at http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/societe/tuerie-de-chevaline-les-enqueteurs-lancent-un-appel-a-temoins_1245276.html#0MptMvpbkzzUhFjx.99
And the other says white this is obviously Sylvie’s car but it seems it was seen by ONF too and has turned into a BMW .
“They are now on the trail of another vehicle, a white off-road car BMW . Investigators were cautious Investigators quickly had knowledge of this 4 x 4 wheel quickly and having almost hit another vehicle in the village of Chevaline. But this testimony, citing a driver “brown” was considered too vague as collected under the influence of emotion. So he left them wary investigators until another person evokes in turn that white off-road traveling at high speed. This new witness, an officer of the National Forestry Office (ONF), assured having crossed what he described as a model of X5 type of the German mark. A car with an unusual pattern on the narrow roads of Chevaline. The two men who discovered the killing, a British cyclist and hiker French circulating a little before 16 hours on the road of Combe d’Ire, have not crossed this car.”
http://www.leparisien.fr/espace-premium/actu/tuerie-de-chevaline-un-nouveau-vehicule-recherche-14-04-2013-2724223.php#xtref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.marilynztomlins.com%2Farticles%2Fchevaline-saad-al-hilli-sylvain-mollier-murder-most-foul-part-14%2F
Peter
Thanks for the excellent posts above. I am busy ATM so cannot reply in detail. The one point I would note is the conflation by SAH of ‘lifetime gifts’ with ‘inheritance’.
The 200K could have been part of a business deal carried out on behalf of his father or some monies gifted to help his grandson on the death of his mother (Zaid’s wife).
Zaid may not have benefited personally but even if he did, given the separation in time under UK law this would have been treated separately and not included in any inheritance calculation. However this may be different under islamic law.
Panorama blurb.
Monday 21 October 2013
“A new investigation to be broadcast tonight will suggest that two people acted together – one as surveillance, and the other as an assassin.
The theory relies on the account of a Forestry Commission worker who was in the area minutes before the murder.
The man, whose identity is protected, claims to have seen a man on a black and white motorcycle and, shortly afterwards, a right-hand drive car driven by a man he believes was an accomplice.
He told the BBC’s Panorama: “The car was a BMW 4×4, X5, grey metallic, in good condition, clean, it looked pretty new. It was a right-hand drive, English. I didn’t get much of a look at him but the driver was slightly bald and he had dark skin, no glasses.” The claims were last night corroborated by Surrey Police. Despite a public appeal earlier this year, the car has not yet been traced.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/alhilli-alps-murders-witness-claims-assassin-was-helped-by-accomplice-in-uk-car-8892531.html
What do you suppose made him think the car was an accomplice to the black and white motorcycle ?
@James
« So they wish to take the “sighting” by LFR seriously, but not the time ! »
Exactly!
Anyway, an oldie from MZT
https://deadzone61.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/www-marilynztomlins-com_fb_second_cuddlytoy.png
In the closing comments of TP’s book TPC, page 293, the cuddly toy comes up again.
JM/FB says “Zainab never went anywhere without her favourite fluffy toy”
…
I know from own experience that parents (and kids) go at great length to retrieve those items. If SAH/Zainab/Zeena discovered at FIB 15h15 that ‘fluffy’ was missing, was perhaps left behind at Martinet, this 100% sure would make SAH/Zainab turn around and go back to Martinet to retrieve ‘fluf’
If ‘fluffy’ was the case of this, I can understand that the kids have blocked this out.
Was a ‘fluffy’ missing? … this could be more important than those damned ‘missing’ passports:)
Do any of the contributors on this forum, know if “THE FRENCH”
have traversed the ENGLISH channel and interviewed Zaid al-Hilli.
If not
they are not serious.
@MN
Iirc, Zaid was (also) questioned by UK officers in the presence of FR investigators (Iirc, The fr investigators weren’t allowed to asked questions directly)
The FRENCH people are angry, not sure what at, everything I guess.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-33609953
Thanks Max, now I remember what you said.
I also think I remember that Zaid has offered to do a lie-detector test
but I might be confusing that offer with one made by Mr. Assange?
unnamed perpetrator X
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-33609654
I’m trying to find red cars in the woods. First try here. I hope I can find better examples later.
Now, this is red …
https://deadzone61.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/red1.jpg
But when up close … what can you see??
https://deadzone61.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/red2.jpg